Judging Davis and White

dorispulaski said:

Perhaps I should have left it as jazz club. I.e. not ballroom. Also, it was not bubbly or mildly humorous. Yes, I am not thrilled with the My Fair Lady music, but it does meet requirements, even if not an inspired choice Muskrat Ramble is Charleston rather than Quickstep. This is legal, because the time signature is the same and the number of beats per second are right, but it cannot have helped their cause. It's too bad, because it's the nicest sd they have ever had IMO. Unfortunately, it's like a poodle entered in a terrier contest.

I wish they had used an expanded version of their sd as their fd, and had picked something else for the sd.

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I actually REALLY wish I had been able to talk to you more at US Nats. In the past week or so there has not been a single post you've made that I disagreed with. Of course that might have made our talk rather boring, as I'd have just been nodding the whole time, but still....

Ladskater said:

.....I just don't get it. There is something not right with the judging. Their marks have been definitely inflated for the past couple of years....

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You admit you don't get it and I assume you don't quite understand every element in the judging protocol either. If you say their marks have been inflated 'definitely', would you mind pulling out some elements in the protocol and comment on them to support your arguments?

Matt K said:

...Virtue/Moir have the better skating and presentation skills of anyone competing today. They can move in and out of any dance hold without losing flow, speed and positions. Other teams can't and or lose one or the other. Not to mention their speed and power from their knees and deep edges, just to die for .....D/W never have, and never will, IMO. I like that V/M have never "sold out" like using toe picks to run across the ice or sacrificing posture/lines for a level 4 element. VM only team to have both the technique and artistic aspects of ice dancing and have never sacrificed their quality.....

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To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's how the judges distinguished between marking the elements.

bbgarfield said:

To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's what the judges distinguish between marks.

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Welcome to GS, and thank you for this detailed analysis! This is the kind of element I don't know to look for, and you have given me a great deal of insight. While I loved both programs (and I mean loved them; they were each ravishing in their own way), I would not know to keep an eye on things like the glide and the men's movement, and as you say, the judges would look for exactly that.

Lad, first you post about how V/M should be nominated for the Order of Canada medal since "anyone can win an Olympic medal". Did that not get enough attention for you? Did you have to start another to further downplay D/W achievements?

Very bad taste.....

bbgarfield said:

To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's how the judges distinguished between marking the elements.

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If you watch V/M for their mistakes in great detail one should do the same for D/W. There is snow spraying out of DW's blades when they are attempting to skate close together almost all the time. This part at 3:46-3:49 ish, they transition from her leaping over him into a face to face hold. Yet, they struggle to maintain a good closed hold (very unfinished, it's not really a closed hold, she is tugging at him) and they don't cover much ice. Why? Look at their blades, they are stepping down on the ice, not on a deep edge. 3:46-3:49 and again at 4:25-4:27.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0imqv_BxuM

Compare this to V/M's where they don't lose flow or speed when going from open hold to closed dance hold. And yes, their dance hold is actually finished and closed. And they skate on deep edges to maintain this flow and speed: 1:37-1:42, 3:19-3:23 , and 4:03-4:07: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg2Ozj1R0bw It looks EFFORTLESS, you don't even notice they are changing holds because they don't lose speed.

D/W - choreography has lots of small hops, jumps and leaping. Yes, it accentuates the music beat but they also skate on shallower edges (MUCH shallower than V/M) and they "run" sometimes on flats.

And no offense, but "gliding on edges"? The first part of V/M's FD before their lift, is gliding on edges (and on one foot!). What Charlie is doing to swing Meryl during lifts I would hardly call gliding on edges.

And look at the step sequence of both teams, particularly the one where they skate in closer holds (the circular steps). V/M's hips ALWAYS maintain even spacing, their hips are much closer together than D/W. D/W's hips at times too far apart in the footwork, and they have a harder time getting their lines to match as a result (although it's not as bad as 2010). They don't hold their edges or positions longer than a millisecond, whereas V/M actually hold theirs longer (they won't sacrifice quality).

It's interesting you mention Charlie's footwork. He toe pushes sometimes (look at that part in his midline step sequence in the SD at GPF), not the same depth or power as Moir.

I've heard enough whining from V&M ubers to last a lifetime, especially from those who sit in front of a TV screen and think they know everything about skating, judging, etc. Ridiculous.

Olympia said:

Welcome to GS, and thank you for this detailed analysis! This is the kind of element I don't know to look for, and you have given me a great deal of insight. While I loved both programs (and I mean loved them; they were each ravishing in their own way), I would not know to keep an eye on things like the glide and the men's movement, and as you say, the judges would look for exactly that.

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Thank you. It really takes judges (especially in the states) numerous years of training and tons of money traveling for trial judging just to learn how to distinguish those little quality difference. If people look closely at the judging protocol in the FD, all judges except Christopher Buchanan put D/W ahead of V/M. You might be able to buy 1 or 2 judges as what was rumored, but to have a clear majority of the panel having that decision, it didn't seem very possible, seriously.

To add to my post above, look at D/W's right forward inside brackets, both in the SD midline step sequence and FD (diagonal step sequence). When they exit on the right back outside edge they often don't extend the free leg and almost all the time never match (SD). They never hold these moves long enough (both their edges and lines). They hit a right forward inside bracket really quick and that's that. They hit the edge but don't hold it long or extend the leg. Enough to get the level and that's that.

Sour grapes are a big part of every Olympics, but . . . yeesh, this is getting disappointing. There's no shock that a team that has been among the top 2 for the past 4 years, dominating the past 2 years, won. None.

I think the sad part about all this faux-controversy is that it's missing the bigger, better story: V/M and D/W were a new vanguard of this sport that energized and elevated it and -- in the eyes of many -- made it legitimate. It's an enormous success, they did it by driving each other to new heights (way before Vancouver) and ought to be celebrated by everyone in the sport. When these two teams are gone, the sport will owe both a debt of gratitude.

Matt K said:

Enough to get the level and that's that.

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That's the point of the game - get the levels, get +GOEs from the bullets you satisfy technically. Why "extend and hold it longer" if then you are going to run out of space in the rink while you extend and hold ALL your turns. V/M do the same on some of their turns...:disapp:

Matt K said:

If you watch V/M for their mistakes in great detail one should do the same for D/W. There is snow spraying out of DW's blades when they are attempting to skate close together almost all the time. This part at 3:46-3:49 ish, they transition from her leaping over him into a face to face hold. Yet, they struggle to maintain a good closed hold (very unfinished) and they don't cover much ice. Why? Look at their blades, they are stepping down on the ice, not on a deep edge. Again at 4:25-4:27.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0imqv_BxuM

Their choreography has lots of small hops, jumps and leaping. Yes, it accentuates the music beat but they also skate on shallower edges (MUCH shallower than V/M).

And no offense, but "gliding on edges"? The first part of V/M's FD before their lift, is gliding on edges. What Charlie is doing to swing Meryl during lifts I would hardly call gliding on edges.

It's interesting you mention Charlie's footwork. He toe pushes sometimes (look at that part in his midline step sequence in the SD at GPF), not the same depth or power as Moir.

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We are comparing OLYMPIC PERFORMANCES here, if you have to pull out video's from GPF to support your claims, that's irrelevant. And mind you, there are 2 types of lifts, 1 is a holding lift where the man glides on edge, the other one is a rotational lift where the man rotates on the ice. I think we'd better compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees. People always go gaga when Canadian's own Kurt Browning is skating the same way on the ice.

And take notice, I only hear crying foul about judges' scandal only coming from the media. Canskate even brushed it off. If there's real judge bribing happening, do you think Canskate will be an ostrich and keep quiet about it?

mskater93 said:

That's the point of the game - get the levels, get +GOEs from the bullets you satisfy technically. Why "extend and hold it longer" if then you are going to run out of space in the rink while you extend and hold ALL your turns. V/M do the same on some of their turns...:disapp:

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Huh? You won't run out of space in the rink while you extend. Look at VM's circular. Their ice coverage is a bit bigger in that pattern (at least at GPF) because they hold and COMPLETE their movements using longer edges. No need to hide by skating edge to edge for a nanosecond each and hardly extending lines. Which is why their edge quality and blade control are the best. Another good example is Domnina/Shabalin's 2009 FD circular. They completed each turn and matched each line. Amplitude that results in bigger circular step sequence.

bbgarfield said:

We are comparing OLYMPIC PERFORMANCES here, if you have to pull out video's from GPF to support your claims, that's irrelevant. And mind you, there are 2 types of lifts, 1 is a holding lift where the man glides on edge, the other one is a rotational lift where the man rotates on the ice. I think we'd better compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees. People always go gaga when Canadian's own Kurt Browning is skating the same way on the ice.

And take notice, I only hear crying foul about judges' scandal only coming from the media. Canskate even brushed it off. If there's real judge bribing happening, do you think Canskate will be an ostrich and keep quiet about it?

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LOL. If you talk about Olympic performances then my argument still remains.

And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees

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I think you should watch pairs, you'd like it more. Jumping up and down is not ice dancing, my goodness! Sorry but did I just read that?!

JEEZ, I have never heard so much kvetching over an ice dance result. For god's sake, Davis and White were silver medalists 4 years ago; it's not like they came out of nowhere. They were the younger, hungrier team. I think it can be argued that "Well, I prefer the Canadians over the Americans..." but to suggest that Davis and White are somehow UNWORTHY of the gold medal...or that SUBJECTIVELY SPEAKING, some people prefer THEIR skating to V/M. You HAVE to accept that both teams were wonderful, and that reasonable people can disagree. The only thing that separates D/W and V/M in my eyes is that V/M have been inconsistent the last 2 seasons (see: team event) and judges are people too. They see who's not making mistakes. They see who continually goes out there and produces the cleanest skate. They see everything, just like we do. That's going to be reflected in the component mark. Judges are human, lord.

I'd also like to point out that Davis and White got straight 10s for Choreography/Composition, and Interpretation. That means that even the bloody Canadian judge (assuming there is one...ISU only lists "ISU" as the country anymore) gave them a perfect score. So shuddupaboutitalready.

Humpf.

Too bad, the rules in ice dancing have changed. Those jumping up and down elements DO count as much as the ice dancing pattern itself. If it's the old system where they had CD's, V/M might have an edge. Blame the system not the judges. It's just like FS skaters could get by having level 1 spins in the old system and still won medals, it's NOT happening anymore under the new system.

Too bad, the rules in ice dancing have changed. Those jumping up and down elements DO count as much as the ice dancing pattern itself. If it's the old system where they had CD's, V/M might have an edge. Blame the system not the judges. It's just like FS skaters could get by having level 1 spins in the old system and still won medals, it's NOT happening anymore under the new system. And sure I'll watch pairs too, I was trained to judge in all disciplines.

Oh yeah, and I also think the Coomes/Buckland is picking up on D/W's bad tendencies. I think that means they'll be getting top 6 placement pretty soon.

Matt K said:

LOL. If you talk about Olympic performances then my argument still remains.

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No, it's not when you pull out a video from GPF. Competitions are about performance at the moment. In between competitions, there are also improvements and program fine tunings. If your GPF video link can be used as proofs for an Olympic performance, nobody needs to go to Sochi anymore, everybody just submit a video copy of past programs and be done with it.

bbgarfield said:

No, it's not when you pull out a video from GPF. Competitions are about performance at the moment. In between competitions, there are also improvements and program fine tunings. If your GPF video link can be used as proofs for an Olympic performance, nobody needs to go to Sochi anymore, everybody just submit a video copy of past programs and be done with it.

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Can you find a copy on Youtube? Because I can't. I only downloaded the copies from fsvids and they do not allow me to distribute copies. Having seen the Olympic videos, my point remains stronger. In their SD, V/M's edges were deeper and held longer than D/W's, especially in the midline step sequence where it was very evident. V/M skated with deep edges, beautiful soft knees and carry their flow from one turn to the other . D/W had shallower edges during footwork, Meryl has stiff knees and need to run on the ice on flats to maintain the speed. V/M actually skated even closer at the hip in their circular step and faster too than their GPF performances.

Why don't you watch their Olympic performances before judging? I have. Or if you want to watch jumping up and down that hurts the knees, watch a throw triple jump being performed in pairs.

Scott Moir himself said that his coach/choreographer gave them inferior programs this year and refused to work with them to work out all the problems they were having with it. He felt like they were "stuck in quicksand," watching Davis and White get farther and farther ahead. He was right. They had weak programs and Davis and White got farther and farther ahead, as reflected in the scoring.