Reactions and criticism of judging by Network commentators - NBC, CBC, BBC, etc | Page 38 | Golden Skate

Reactions and criticism of judging by Network commentators - NBC, CBC, BBC, etc

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Might as well put this clip here in the correct thread.

Sky Italia commentary with English Sub by an Italian figure skating fan.
Original Translation and Video credit: Emil Petrov on Facebook.
Subtitles colour codes are: Silvia Fontana (2 time Olympian and retired figure skater in white), Danilo Freri (blue) and Massimiliano Ambesi (green).

http://vimeo.com/89457478

This combined with Sonia Bianchetti's write up for the Olympics makes a pretty damning criticism of the judging at Sochi from the Italians.

http://www.soniabianchetti.com/writings_sochi2014.html

From these names you mentioned only 2 deserves their opinion to be respected, for me.
One is Bianchetti and the other one is Ambesi. The best and the most objective expert and commentator in Italy.
Although, he did said later in the studio that he was for Kim but he would go easy on calling it a scandal. He also did compare the footwork between Sotnikova and Kostner using a parallel video.



@capcomeback

Yuna was denied a second gold. That much is a fact

Carolina might've been denied a first gold, as well. So not so much a fact that one is it?
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
From these names you mentioned only 2 deserves their opinion to be respected, for me.
One is Bianchetti and the other one is Ambesi. The best and the most objective expert and commentator in Italy.
Although, he did said later in the studio that he was for Kim but he would go easy on calling it a scandal. He also did compare the footwork between Sotnikova and Kostner using a parallel video.



@capcomeback



Carolina might've been denied a first gold, as well. So not so much a fact that one is it?

you can also argue w/ the whole nbc panel as well.. at least the italians are not biased.. to think they have carolina..
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
you can also argue w/ the whole nbc panel as well.. at least the italians are not biased.. to think they have carolina..

They are, they are belive me! :)
Rai (pubblic tv) for example is not only biased but the broadcasting is horrible as well.
Eurosport is the best, and the guy Ambesi I mentioned, is the best one in Italy. Very knowledgeable and objective. He works for them and also covered Sochi for Sky.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
The headline as it read was not opinion. It was fact. Whether Yuna was denied a second gold by a superior skater or incompetent or cheating officiating, Yuna was denied a second gold. That much is a fact.
I think you are equating "I don't have X" with "I was denied X". You can only be denied things which you think should have been yours by right.

Otherwise, I can run a story titled "I Was Denied Barack Obama's Job."

And it would be true, in a sense - I don't have his job, after all, do I? I must have been denied.

And in that sense, every single skater in this event except Sotnikova was "denied" a gold medal. Also, all the men were denied a medal in ladies' singles skating. And in pairs and dance, too.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
A "source" can be unnamed. In this case, if you are stating that the skating reporter is not a source because they do not have any "inside information", you don't know that for sure (for example that person may be researching a expose and may not want to make the findings public). Either way, I agree that Gallagher's prose is slanted and is better suited to a column than a story.

Yes, sources can be unnamed but you must agree that using anonymous, unverifiable sources does reduce the credibility of one's argument very substantially.
 

sowcow

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
.
Might as well put this clip here in the correct thread.

Sky Italia commentary with English Sub by an Italian figure skating fan.
Original Translation and Video credit: Emil Petrov on Facebook.
Subtitles colour codes are: Silvia Fontana (2 time Olympian and retired figure skater in white), Danilo Freri (blue) and Massimiliano Ambesi (green).

http://vimeo.com/89457478

Wow, those are some strong opinions!

During the 'pre-score' period (prior to the scores being announced) the Italians are perhaps the most vocal in declaring Yuna as the gold medal winner (as compared to commentators from other networks).

Post-scores, I'd also argue the Italians are comparatively more outspoken and critical of the judges decision!

It is especially interesting to watch how their comments transition from initial denials "I can't believe it, I can't believe it ... No, no, no, no, no ... No way, c'mon ... that's impossible"; to utter astonishment "I have no words ... why do [the judges] have to ruin our sport"; followed by protests "she would have been a beautiful bronze, she would have been a worthy silver, but she's NOT a gold!". I can only imagine the hurricane of hands & flurry of flying fists during their impassioned critique! :confused2: hehe

However, after the initial shock and protests, I give Massimiliano Ambesi (green translation) credit when despite his belief that Yuna was robbed, he recognizes their collective responsibility as commentators to give some sort of explanation to their Italian audience on just how the judges might have been able to give higher scores to Sotnikova (e.g. she had one extra triple; Yuna's step sequence was downgraded to a level 3, etc.):

"In my opinion too, Kim should be the gold medalist; but we must give an explanation to the people at home ..."
(@ 5:05)


That really speaks to his understanding/knowledge that big judging controversies like these tend to drive many casual viewers/fans away, which subsequently leads to steep declines in viewership & ratings.

Thanks for posting the video os168!
.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I find that video almost hysterical - it's like they are trying their best to fulfill the expectation of every Italian stereotype, the lounge act, the supper club routine. "Absolutely perfect"? "Nothing to add"? Seriously?

Also, "they've put her in the worst position, the last to skate"? WHO put her into this position? She drew a number. Just like everybody else.

"It's not a counting exercise." Uh, Sylvia, that's exactly what it is. Sorry lady, 6.0 has been retired since you competed.

"Make Adelina perform a tango"? Huh? Must everyone do what everyone else does?

Seeing as an equal number of people believe Carolina should have been first, I would have been pissed at the commentators if I was Italian for not backing their girl.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
I think you are equating "I don't have X" with "I was denied X". You can only be denied things which you think should have been yours by right.

Otherwise, I can run a story titled "I Was Denied Barack Obama's Job."

And it would be true, in a sense - I don't have his job, after all, do I? I must have been denied.

And in that sense, every single skater in this event except Sotnikova was "denied" a gold medal. Also, all the men were denied a medal in ladies' singles skating. And in pairs and dance, too.

Nope. In the parlance of the language, "Denied" does not always mean what you're saying it means. It could simply mean "was beaten". The same way that a goalie "denies" a goal by making a brilliant save.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Nope. In the parlance of the language, "Denied" does not always mean what you're saying it means. It could simply mean "was beaten". The same way that a goalie "denies" a goal by making a brilliant save.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I believe that the word "denied" implies a sense of unfairness and entitlement on the part of the one denied. In a sense, Adelina's win denied gold to everyone, not just Kim. You can't possibly argue that Kim was the sole favorite of the event and no one else was expected to be her competition.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
I find that video almost hysterical - it's like they are trying their best to fulfill the expectation of every Italian stereotype, the lounge act, the supper club routine. "Absolutely perfect"? "Nothing to add"? Seriously?

Also, "they've put her in the worst position, the last to skate"? WHO put her into this position? She drew a number. Just like everybody else.

"It's not a counting exercise." Uh, Sylvia, that's exactly what it is. Sorry lady, 6.0 has been retired since you competed.

"Make Adelina perform a tango"? Huh? Must everyone do what everyone else does?

Seeing as an equal number of people believe Carolina should have been first, I would have been pissed at the commentators if I was Italian for not backing their girl.

PCS should not be just a counting system. In this regard Silvia was quite correct. TES SHOULD just be a counting system, but has been subverted by GOE.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
PCS should not be just a counting system. In this regard Silvia was quite correct. TES SHOULD just be a counting system, but has been subverted by GOE.
But the thing is, it IS. PCS is a way to express some of the intangibles - not all - in numbers. It's not like they are pulling these numbers out of thin air. It is perhaps not explicated well enough to distinguish between what deserves a 7.85 vs. 8.25, but it's a numbers' game nevertheless.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I believe that the word "denied" implies a sense of unfairness and entitlement on the part of the one denied. In a sense, Adelina's win denied gold to everyone, not just Kim. You can't possibly argue that Kim was the sole favorite of the event and no one else was expected to be her competition.

Not an opinion. It is a fact that the word is used the way I'm telling you it gets used. There is no use arguing semantics here.


1.
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/m...denied-by-uconn-again-by-uconn-again-1.732589

Men's basketball: Rutgers denied by UConn again
March 6, 2014
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
The Record

Rutgers’ 42-year drought on the road against Connecticut continues.

Shabazz Napier scored 26 points in his final home game, leading 19th-ranked UConn to a 69-63 win over Rutgers on Wednesday night to extend a Scarlet Knights’ road losing streak to the Huskies that began in 1972.
- See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/sports/m...-by-uconn-again-1.732589#sthash.w4XFRvlJ.dpuf


2.
http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/2058887.html

Cardinals denied title as Eels 3-peat
Saturday, March 8, 2014
By Rick Curl, Sports Writer

SWITZ CITY -- Just about anything that could go wrong for Bloomfield did in the IHSAA Class A Sectional 57 title game here Saturday night.

The Cardinals fell behind quickly, turned the ball over at inopportune times and weren't able to control the tempo in a 63-43 loss to Clay City.

***

Just two examples. Thousands of others on-line and at your local newsstand.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
But the thing is, it IS. PCS is a way to express some of the intangibles - not all - in numbers. It's not like they are pulling these numbers out of thin air. It is perhaps not explicated well enough to distinguish between what deserves a 7.85 vs. 8.25, but it's a numbers' game nevertheless.

Yeah... it looks like they're pulling the numbers out of the air. When Adelina, a skater known for her technical prowess but has failed to impress judges with her scores for interpretation and choreography (and skating skills, i.e. sloppy edges and posture etc), achieves basically the same score in her TES as should does her PCS, something is wrong here. Pulling the numbers out of the air seems just about as legitimate as the score she got.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
When Adelina, a skater known for her technical prowess but has failed to impress judges with her scores for interpretation and choreography (and skating skills, i.e. sloppy edges and posture etc), achieves basically the same score in her TES as should does her PCS, something is wrong here. Pulling the numbers out of the air seems just about as legitimate as the score she got.

Not true. Adelina has been getting very high PCS for a few years now, particularly when she skates well. She has had the best PCS by a good margin of all the up-and-comers, including Gracie and Julia. Only Ashley and Akiko, along with Y-C-M, have gotten better PCS consistently.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I believe that the word "denied" implies a sense of unfairness and entitlement on the part of the one denied. In a sense, Adelina's win denied gold to everyone, not just Kim. You can't possibly argue that Kim was the sole favorite of the event and no one else was expected to be her competition.

Capcomeback is spot on; "deny" is often used in the context of reports such as the ones cited in his/her posts. Not just in sports items but in many other contexts as well. From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

de·ny transitive verb \di-ˈnī, dē-\
: to say that something is not true

: to refuse to accept or admit (something)

: to refuse to give (something) to someone : to prevent someone from having or receiving (something)
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Not an opinion. It is a fact that the word is used the way I'm telling you it gets used. There is no use arguing semantics here.


1.
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/m...denied-by-uconn-again-by-uconn-again-1.732589

Men's basketball: Rutgers denied by UConn again
March 6, 2014
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
The Record

Rutgers’ 42-year drought on the road against Connecticut continues.

Shabazz Napier scored 26 points in his final home game, leading 19th-ranked UConn to a 69-63 win over Rutgers on Wednesday night to extend a Scarlet Knights’ road losing streak to the Huskies that began in 1972.
- See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/sports/m...-by-uconn-again-1.732589#sthash.w4XFRvlJ.dpuf


2.
http://www.gcdailyworld.com/story/2058887.html

Cardinals denied title as Eels 3-peat
Saturday, March 8, 2014
By Rick Curl, Sports Writer

SWITZ CITY -- Just about anything that could go wrong for Bloomfield did in the IHSAA Class A Sectional 57 title game here Saturday night.

The Cardinals fell behind quickly, turned the ball over at inopportune times and weren't able to control the tempo in a 63-43 loss to Clay City.

***

Just two examples. Thousands of others on-line and at your local newsstand.
In your examples, there are only two competing teams playing against each other. Obviously, if one loses, the other wins. In the figure skating field, competitors are many. Can you find an example where one is denied something that went to someone else out of a field of many, not two?
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Capcomeback is spot on; "deny" is often used in the context of reports such as the ones cited in his/her posts. Not just in sports items but in many other contexts as well. From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

de·ny transitive verb \di-ˈnī, dē-\
: to say that something is not true

: to refuse to accept or admit (something)

: to refuse to give (something) to someone : to prevent someone from having or receiving (something)
Would you say then that along with Kim, 20+ other competitors were also denied gold?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, the Clay City Eels really did deny the Bloomfield Cardinals in Switz City. They blocked the Cardinal's shots, they stole the ball, they beat them up on the offensive glass. Adelina just skated her program. ;)
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I just think the whole "denied" something thing is cliche anyway. There are a variety of ways to say someone was beat.

That said, it would actually be reasonable to write the headline "Yu-Na Kim denied a second gold medal" because she was the only one competitor to have one gold medal and to be gunning for OGM No. 2.
 
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Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Yeah... it looks like they're pulling the numbers out of the air. When Adelina, a skater known for her technical prowess but has failed to impress judges with her scores for interpretation and choreography (and skating skills, i.e. sloppy edges and posture etc), achieves basically the same score in her TES as should does her PCS, something is wrong here. Pulling the numbers out of the air seems just about as legitimate as the score she got.
This doesn't change the fact that scores are about counting.
 
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