The Judging Controversy Thread

Components · Apr 8, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
No it wasn't. Look at where she takes off, the angle of the blade. A lutz jump (one that takes off from a proper outside edge) curves the opposite direction of the rotation. She also doesn't pre-rotate on her toepick hardly at all, so she's already inherently in the air longer.

I did. It was UR.

Just stop.

EDIT: Ignoring you, BTW. I don't have time for you today. Off to practice, though. Have fun!

The moment before the jump goes up into the air: http://i58.tinypic.com/206outy.png

There is some pivot there. Some skaters pivot more, some less. On Lutzes typically the pivot is less than on a flip for the reasons you give - the Take-Off is naturally blocked because of the outside edge entrance. But the skating foot is not the last thing to leave the ice (You know this, I'm sure), the toe pick is. And on all jumps there is usually some pivot on the take-off (sometimes as much as half a rotation). The angle of her blade is literally ignorable in this case.

That does not matter. The jump landing was over 45 degrees short of backwards, and it should have been dinged just like any other UR jump *should* have been dinged.

Point is all the top skaters there (the ones on the podium) got some freebies from the judges.

For the record, while Yuna does jump high she almost never lands straight back the way the Russian skaters tend to on a lot of their jumps. There's almost always some degree of hook at the end of her jumps, she just tends to NOT UR them. In this case, she did, but she got away with it.

And I don't see anyone crying about it, but rather going out of their way to claim otherwise...

Blades of Passion · Apr 8, 2014

You don't understand jumps. From the point that her toepick leaves the ice to the point that she lands, she is in the air 1/4 rotation longer than someone who left the ice facing the back board and landed facing the camera angle (which would be the allowance point).

Components said:
And on all jumps there is usually some pivot on the take-off (sometimes as much as half a rotation).

Yes, exactly. So when a skater pivots far less than half a rotation and gets in the air earlier, that needs to be taken into account when determining where the allowance point for the landing is.

Components · Apr 8, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
You don't understand jumps. From the point that her toepick leaves the ice to the point that she lands, she is in the air 1/4 rotation longer than someone who left the ice facing the back board and landed facing the camera angle (which would be the allowance point).

.

No one leaves the ice facing backwards. No one jumps like that, and you know it. Some people do it on toe loop back ends (Yuna does this sometimes, and the panels have dinged her for UR before in spite of it), but no one does that on a Lutz.

And no, she isn't in the air 1/4 longer, because most people do not pivot a full half turn on Lutzes, I just told you this. Most people pivot about a quarter off a Lutz entrance.

And on top of that she UR'd the landing.

So you're not making any sense, and because of that I will not reply to you further. Bye.

jenm · Apr 8, 2014

Components said:
The Olympic videos are up. 1080p resolution.

Kim's second Triple Lutz was '<'. Did the judges ding her for that in the protocols?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g
It's at 6:41 in the video. Clearly Under-Rotated.
Here's a screen cap from the 1080p stream: http://i62.tinypic.com/2mo8ilv.png
See the video to put that into perspective.

Looks acceptable by 90 degrees allowance to me.

Components said:
Sotnikova's 3-Jump combination wasn't UR. It was overrotated. So she lost GOE for the step-out but the judges weren't going to take much from that because it was on the last double and she had already done a huge Triple Flip and Double Toe on the combo. Since there wasn't a UR on the combination, they were limited in what they could take and actually have to factor in the entire jumping pass as a unit. You don't give -2/-3 GOE for a step out on an over-cooked double loop on a combination like that. It would make no sense.

From what I can recall, the UR issue is with her 3T in 3Lz-3T combination. The step-out is with the 3F-2T-2Lo. Step out was not the only issue with that jumping pass. She was clearly badly off-axis in mid-air position too that caused the step-out. That's another point for deduction.

Components said:
The only area of contention is the PCS, and that's largely subjective since technically (SS/Transitions) I don't see how Sotnikova should be so inferior to Yuna Kim with her program setup (it's very, tactfully, "IJS"), but the other three components are largely subjective in nature and therefore only a fool would try to debate with someone about their personal preferences.

Really? You don't see how Adelina is inferior to Yuna in skating skills? Let's not forget that Adelina's SS is higher than Carolina's and Mao's. If you can't see the big difference between these skaters, I don't know anymore. It's not just about taste. It's about who mastered that element.

Components said:
I think Sotnikova gave the performance of the night. The judges were between a rock and a hard place, but what they did was no different than the way judges would inflate the presentation score of skaters to 5.9s when they only rarely scored that high to give them a win when they gave the best skate. They weren't going to give Kostner or Kim shabby PCS so they took the only other route they could take to place the skater they felt won the competition in front.

Didn't Yuna and Carolina gave their best too? What about Mao who in my opinion had the free skate of this season for ladies?
So you're saying that because they wanted Adelina to win over the other two, they could just give the scores she doesn't deserve YET just because they feel like she should win? Why even have the scoring system then? Just give the gold to the person they feel should win. Save people's time. Save the skaters from injuries. Just sayin.

Blades of Passion · Apr 8, 2014

Components said:
No one leaves the ice facing backwards. No one jumps like that, and you know it.

Yes they do. MANY people do, including Olympic medalists (and it's called "facing forwards"). You should really learn more about this before making such statements.

Look at Sotnikova's takeoff, FYI. Fully forwards on her Lutz and Flip takeoffs.

Components · Apr 8, 2014

jenm said:
Looks acceptable by 90 degrees allowance to me.

I expected that, to about 99% of people here, it would.

ahy · Apr 8, 2014

It's not under rotated... just not quite a good landing

JayW · Apr 8, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
Look at Sotnikova's takeoff, FYI. Fully forwards on her Lutz and Flip takeoffs.

Yes, that what I noticed. I guess that will help the rotation.

gettinglow · Apr 8, 2014

jenm said:
Looks acceptable by 90 degrees allowance to me.

From what I can recall, the UR issue is with her 3T in 3Lz-3T combination. The step-out is with the 3F-2T-2Lo. Step out was not the only issue with that jumping pass. She was clearly badly off-axis in mid-air position too that caused the step-out. That's another point for deduction.

Really? You don't see how Adelina is inferior to Yuna in skating skills? Let's not forget that Adelina's SS is higher than Carolina's and Mao's. If you can't see the big difference between these skaters, I don't know anymore. It's not just about taste. It's about who mastered that element.

Didn't Yuna and Carolina gave their best too? What about Mao who in my opinion had the free skate of this season for ladies?
So you're saying that because they wanted Adelina to win over the other two, they could just give the scores she doesn't deserve YET just because they feel like she should win? Why even have the scoring system then? Just give the gold to the person they feel should win. Save people's time. Save the skaters from injuries. Just sayin.

Clearly Components is terribly upset that everyone knows Yuna, Carolina and Mao are objectively superior skaters and that Adelina's scores in Sochi were ridiculous. It's ok. Adelina will very probably compete maybe one more season and (likely) retire. I doubt most skating fans will miss her.

Miss Ice · Apr 8, 2014

Yeah that video actually proved Yuna's superb lutz technique. She does not rotate on her toe pick/edge AT ALL. She just goes straight into the jump. Adelina, however is another matter... she does take off completel forwards. Also, that video does a good job at showing the hostile Russian audience screaming "ROSSIYA, ROSSIYA" (Russia! Russia!) after Yuna's performance. Makes me want to throw up.

Her coaches' faces say it all despite her bravery and smiles; they are just like "Wow, this is rigged. Let's get outta here."

@Components - yeah she didn't land "straigh backward" but it was less than 1/4 rotation. Look at her toe pick; it touches the ice only after the 1/4 mark. That is not UR. Seriously, that's nothing, and it's not a UR. Something that the judges did miss is Sotnikova's UR on her 3-3 combination and her obvious flutz which has always been downgraded with normal judging.

cuon_alpinus · Apr 8, 2014

Miss Ice said:
Yeah that video actually proved Yuna's superb lutz technique. She does not rotate on her toe pick/edge AT ALL. She just goes straight into the jump. Adelina, however is another matter... she does take off completel forwards. Also, that video does a good job at showing the hostile Russian audience screaming "ROSSIYA, ROSSIYA" (Russia! Russia!) after Yuna's performance. Makes me want to throw up.

And the fact that they are screaming "Russia Russia" instead of "Sotnikova Sotnikova."

Mathman · Apr 8, 2014

I don't think we can make too much out of Russian spectators at the Olympics going, Russia, Russia, Russia, or United States fans shouting USA, USA, or Australians yelling Ausie, Ausie. Ausie. People go to the Olympics to wave their flags, not to savour the beauty of figure skating.

Snow63 · Apr 8, 2014

Miss Ice said:
Yeah that video actually proved Yuna's superb lutz technique. She does not rotate on her toe pick/edge AT ALL. She just goes straight into the jump. Adelina, however is another matter... she does take off completel forwards. Also, that video does a good job at showing the hostile Russian audience screaming "ROSSIYA, ROSSIYA" (Russia! Russia!) after Yuna's performance. Makes me want to throw up.

Have you seen SLS and/or Vancouver Olympics?

johnsmith72 · Apr 9, 2014

Her triple lutz was about 70 degrees short which is perfectly acceptable. I don't see anything wrong with the jump? It had great height and distance just a tad short which caused her to land on a steep outside edge

gettinglow · Apr 9, 2014

Was Adelina's Rondo Capriccioso program any better than her Burlesque program last year?

Sometimes I wonder if skating to classical music automatically makes the judges bump up your PCS compared to if you choose something more contemporary (not counting esteemed Broadway musicals here). I thought Adelina's LP from last season to Burlesque was pretty horrendous but not actually worse than her terrible LP from this season to Intro to Rondo Capriccioso. I wonder, though...had Adelina skated her Burlesque program this season, would the judges have really let her run away with that gold medal in Sochi? Somehow, even though we all know the judges were propping up the Russian skaters, I'm not sure they would have let a skater skating to Christina Aguilera actually win a gold medal. In some ways, her Burlesque program was such a hot mess that it was at least an interesting train wreck. Her program from this season was a hot boring mess ...still, because it was aping something classical (very loosely), it seems it was deemed acceptable as an Olympic program. What's going on here?

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2014

I think it was definitely better. There was much more timing of the movements with the music and the last part of the program had greater impact. The program made a lot more sense too. The Burlesque program starts with a wailing Christina Aguilera and then suddenly becomes jazzy and languid for well over two minutes. It's an odd disconnect.

You have a point about judges not appreciating/understanding a wider range of music, although it has actually gotten better. Still much more room for open mindedness, though.

Snow63 · Apr 10, 2014

I don't like RC.. at all. So Burlesque is better. I'm not sure about technical part though.

jennyanydots · Apr 10, 2014

Rondo was sort of tolerable but still hate the version she used. I couldn't stand Burlesque. I think I only managed to watch it in its entirety once. It may be shallow but those tacky see through dresses for both programs are a turnoff in themselves.

chalk5 · Apr 10, 2014

Video Question For You All (Controversy...)

Hi everyone.

Could you take a look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fevYHL2otaY&feature=share

and tell me who exactly the person who pops up when Yuna gives Adelina a hug around 2 seconds where Sochi Olympic jacket?

I've seen her giving Adelina a huge previously when she just realized she won the competition. I feel like I've seen her at previous competitions as well on the panel.

Snow63 · Apr 10, 2014

This forum should be called Adelinavsyuna.com.:no:

The Judging Controversy Thread

Components

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Components

Match Penalty

jenm

The Last One Degree

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Components

Match Penalty

ahy

JayW

gettinglow

Match Penalty

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

cuon_alpinus

Mathman

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

johnsmith72

gettinglow

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

jennyanydots

chalk5

Match Penalty

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

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