Petition to investigate judging gets record signings, makes Wall Street Journal headline | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Petition to investigate judging gets record signings, makes Wall Street Journal headline

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bebevia

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Jun 22, 2011
Bluebonnet said:
Please read the article again! Scott Hamilton was talking about component scores, not TES.
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That's where you keep confusing me. You mention PCS is not subjective hence fair, then it's a subjectivity score hence fair, then come back to Scott Hamilton's subjective checkmarks, whose subjectivity doesn't matter.

Look, I get the subjectivity, I get the checkmarks. You mention your subjectivity is right, and mine is wrong.

P.S.: stop that Yuna fan theory. Again, not everyone who questions the subject is a Yuna fan, and not all Yuna fans are Koreans; on top of that, majority of Korean-Yuna fans can't read or type in this non-Korean forum. I think you are capable of discussion without that trolling.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
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bebevia said:
That's where you keep confusing me. You mention PCS is not subjective hence fair, then it's a subjectivity score hence fair, then come back to Scott Hamilton's subjective checkmarks, whose subjectivity doesn't matter.

Look, I get the subjectivity, I get the checkmarks. You mention your subjectivity is right, and mine is wrong.
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I'm sorry you are confusing but what can I do to make you not confusing? I thought I have made it quite clear. Scott was talking about PCS. Scott agreed with the check box marks in PCS for Adelina. Scott said Adelina has met what the judges were looking for. Scott's own feelings did not go with it.

Again, your subjective feeling, my subjective feeling, and Scott's subjective feeling do not count in this judged sport. The judges' subjective feelings counted. That's the way things work.
 
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yuki90

On the Ice
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Jan 8, 2014
fahrenheit290 said:
I just posted this on the WSJ blog. The problem with the media is that they are not giving the complete picture...only saying simplistically (on the Today Show for example, or in articles) that the results were controversial. Maybe this gives a more complete (and accurate) view of what happened:


The judging was atrocious last night. And that’s besides the short program where Sotnikova was intentionally placed very close to Kim, who skated a more difficult and better executed triple-triple combination:

- Sotnikova was not called for her under rotation on her 3Z + 3T combo beginning her program. While Mao Asada, who had the most difficult triple in the competition that no one else even attempted (the triple axel), found herself downgraded…after landing the most difficult program in women’s figure skating history at the Olympics: 8 triples. But, of course, she didn’t win the free skate because she came earlier, and her jumps were downgraded and scrutinized, while the Russian’s were not. So those arguing Soknikova had the best technical performance of the night need only look to Mao Asada’s judging (placed third) to find their points invalidated.

- The other Russian, Yulia, came first, and received a massive 135 score after falling on a triple, and stumbling out of another jump. This placed her over Mao Asada whose skate was undermarked, as I said, and even Ashley Wagner, who was cleaner than Yulia in both the long and short programs.

- The performance components judging was downright bad. Soknikova was massively held up here. She finished jumps hunched over. Her form and posture was at times poor. She two-footed a landing on the 3 + 2 + 2 combination. She broke form and waved to the crowd. There is no doubt her spins were superior to Yuna’s, but there was nothing wrong with Yuna’s LP footwork sequence that should have dropped it to a Level 3. The fact that Yuna only beat Soknikova by 0.09 in the performance components (the aesthetics and program choreography) was outrageous! Even if she had landed one triple more, the program quality and the execution were way over exaggerated in the judging, with added grade of execution bonuses.

- Lastly, the judges themselves: It was reported by Christine Brennan of USA Today that one judge was the wife of the Russian Skating Federation president. And another from Ukraine had been banned for a year after being influenced at Nagano in 1998. Four judges (from Britain, the U.S.) were not given spots to judge the long programs. Get the facts in print because this shouldn’t be just South Koreans who are upset with the influence of the Russians.
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Thanks THIS IS IT.
 
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starrynight

On the Ice
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Jan 1, 2010
bekalc said:
This is Korea's Platinum medal tirade. Because these folks are "unbiased judges" Seriously.
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Koreans stepped up and started it becuase as of now they feel the judging system problm much more sensitively than others. But are you so sure that a young skater of your country will never be a victim of an unanimous judging by the panel consisting of the innercircle people of your competitor? Perhaps you are from Russia and have no such worries....
 
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yuki90

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
YuNa
3Lz+3T 10.10
3F 5.30
2A 3.63 x

3Lz+3T 10.10
3F 5.30
3S+2T 5.50
3Lz 6.60 
2A+2T+2Lo 7.04 
3S 4.62 x
2A 3.63 x 
Total 61.84

Sotnikova
3T+3T 8.20 
3F 5.30
2A 3.63 x

3Lz+3T 10.10 (Wrong edge. should get -GOE -1~-2 but Judges gave +GOE.)
3F 5.30
3Lo 5.10 
2A+3T 8.14 x
3F+2T+2Lo 9.24 x 
3S 4.62 x 
2A 3.63 x
Total 63.26 

the difference is only 1.42 point.
Their PCS is almost same in both SP and FP.
YuNa's step sequence got level 3 in SP and FP and Adelina got level 4 and 1.7 GOE.
This is fixed from the beginnig.YuNa was robbed of gold medal.
 
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bebevia

On the Ice
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Jun 22, 2011
Bluebonnet said:
I'm sorry you are confusing but what can I do to make you not confusing? I thought I have made it quite clear. Scott was talking about PCS. Scott agreed with the check box marks in PCS for Adelina. Scott said Adelina has met what the judges were looking for. Scott's own feelings did not go with it.
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Yes, he was talking about PCS. However, rephrasing my early question: you mention PCS is not subjective ("judges had to follow the rules"), then it's a subjectivity score (judges' subjectivity matters), then come back to Scott Hamilton's subjective (subjective) checkmarks (not subjective), whose subjectivity doesn't matter, and does not subjectively agree. I think you need a different reference to support your opinion.

Also, the subjectivity of PCS was where the whole discussion started, because it can be favoured and presented as "subjectivity". The discussion is on whether the subjective nature of PCS is abused, not to deny how subjective it is. Judges' subjectivity mattered only on the presented score sheet; if the audience doesn't agree with their subjectivity, the audience can say they don't agree. That's fair and subjective.
 
ManyCairns

ManyCairns

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For me, areas of evaluation/concern/possible inquiry are multi-pronged. First, the overall trend of the scores, meaning the sudden increases in total scores from the regular season to the Olympics. That shouldn't be ignored as an overall indicator of potential concern. Second, the PCS for the skaters relative to recent performances and to each other. Then, the GOE's, and again relative to similar recent performance and to each other. Next, the Level calls -- for the individual skater -- were elements really performed differently to justify any level increases marked? Or for skaters who didn't receive levels they had in the past, was there really some bullet point not met that had been met in the past for the same element? Finally, edge and underrotation calls -- were they fairly and evenly applied. ETA: Forgot Judges' and Technical Staff Backgrounds and histories of behavior, and conflicts of interest.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
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Aug 18, 2010
bebevia said:
Yes, he was talking about PCS. However, rephrasing my early question: you mention PCS is not subjective ("judges had to follow the rules"), then it's a subjectivity score (judges' subjectivity matters), then come back to Scott Hamilton's subjective (subjective) checkmarks (not subjective), whose subjectivity doesn't matter, and does not subjectively agree. I think you need a different reference to support your opinion.

Also, the subjectivity of PCS was where the whole discussion started, because it can be favoured and presented as "subjectivity". The discussion is on whether the subjective nature of PCS is abused, not to deny how subjective it is. Judges' subjectivity mattered only on the presented score sheet; if the audience doesn't agree with their subjectivity, the audience can say they don't agree. That's fair and subjective.
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Now I see where you are at. I think the key is that PCS should either change its name to make it less confusing, or the contents in PCS check boxes be changed to meet the general sense of "artistic presentation". Then again, they will be even more subjective than they are already.

I have never said PCS was not subjective. Please don't insert your words and your understanding into my posts as a "fact" of what I have meant. The check boxes are the clear effort to make PCS less subjective, though no one can get rid of subjectivity in skating completely.

By the way, Scott was looking for Adelina's usual mistakes in her LP. He said he never found them.
 
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starrynight

On the Ice
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Jan 1, 2010
Bluebonnet said:
Again, your subjective feeling, my subjective feeling, and Scott's subjective feeling do not count in this judged sport. The judges' subjective feelings counted. That's the way things work.
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The issue is that such a judge of absolute authority came from the innercicle of Russian Figureskating Federation, the wife of the president. And the absolute subjectivity was excercised under a veil of unanimity. The ISU itself opened the gate for many doubts about corruption. Maybe nothing can be changed even though millions of fans petition for investigation through Change.org. But without any action, we will see another talented young skater crying at the back stage in a decade.
 
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usethis2

Medalist
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Feb 11, 2014
How does this petition thing work? I thought the number was close to met last night (~1.5 M), but this morning the goal looks to be 3.0 M?
 
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moviechick

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May 7, 2008
Honestly, I've never seen one of these change.org petitions actually produce serious results but if it can at least draw some attention to a sport that has lost a lot of popularity over the years, I guess that's good.

I think the big compounding factor here is that no one had heard of this Adelina girl before and to see her beat Yuna is a shock to people who don't even follow this sport. If it had been Julia, who the world had already fallen in love with, I doubt this would be getting mainstream traction.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
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Aug 18, 2010
starrynight said:
The issue is that such a judge of absolute authority came from the innercicle of Russian Figureskating Federation, the wife of the president. And the absolute subjectivity was excercised under a veil of unanimity. The ISU itself opened the gate for many doubts about corruption. Maybe nothing can be changed even though millions of fans petition for investigation through Change.org. But without any action, we will see another talented young skater crying at the back stage in a decade.
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The wife and husband connection was not a crime, though it was never a good idea to begin with.

If Adelina did not deliver, no one could help her. The home advantage and audience on that night helped her.

It was the queen's coronation that was fixed priory to the competition, not Adelina's win was fixed. The automatic coronation was broken by a small name with a big skate that night.
 
Antilopa

Antilopa

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Jan 11, 2014
Pitiful argument. Shekhovtsova had been ISU judge long time before she married RF FS Federation president.
 
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Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
moviechick said:
Honestly, I've never seen one of these change.org petitions actually produce serious results but if it can at least draw some attention to a sport that has lost a lot of popularity over the years, I guess that's good.

I think the big compounding factor here is that no one had heard of this Adelina girl before and to see her beat Yuna is a shock to people who don't even follow this sport. If it had been Julia, who the world had already fallen in love with, I doubt this would be getting mainstream traction.
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All of the results were fair except for the Russians. Suddenly Sotnikova scored within decimal points of Yuna's world record, with a step out and one less element? And her weaker skating skills, transitions, choreo, compared to that skate by Yuna?

Personally, I think the fix was obviously when they announced 149.9 for Sotnikova, how could anyone else not find that score preposterous?
 
Manitou

Manitou

Medalist
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Jan 17, 2014
If some sore losers manage to push this garbage then is there a similar petition to ban the original petition? I want to sign it!
For every evil actions there should be a good reaction.
 
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caseyl23

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Bluebonnet said:
The wife and husband connection was not a crime, though it was never a good idea to begin with.

If Adelina did not deliver, no one could help her. The home advantage and audience on that night helped her.

It was the queen's coronation that was fixed priory to the competition, not Adelina's win was fixed. The automatic coronation was broken by a small name with a big skate that night.
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Anyone who thinks Adelina was a "small name" hasn't been following figure skating too much. As NBC noted, she is a four-time national champion. That means the Russian Federation likes her – a lot. I've read on this very forum that she's one of Vladimir Putin's favorite skaters. That counts – for a lot. She's been a very competitive runner-up at the European Championships both years she's been eligible. She's always in contention if she skates well in the short program and sometimes when she doesn't. This is a girl the judges and her federation have always wanted to reward, and it just so happens that she gave them an excuse to do so at the best possible time (for her). Did I personally think she deserved it? Given her planned technical advantage (according to NBC) and what she put out there, I would have had her very close, but I don't think I'd have given it to her – I felt she was just a little too sloppy on the jumps. I'm not at all surprised this judging panel did so under these circumstances, though.
 
Mao88

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
CezarMart said:
:agree:

Yes, just one thread called: "Sore loser rants". Accumulate evil in one place and don't let it spill outside!
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Yes - exactly. Its time this thread and all the other sore loser threads were dumped into the conspiracy thread. And yes, whilst there at it, it would probably be apt the change the name of that thread to the "Yuna fan Sore Losers Sour Grapes Thread" as its much more accurate description for it.

I think the silent majority on this board (who avoid hate threads) are getting well and truly fed up of the activities of the Yuna fans
 
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CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Ven said:
All of the results were fair except for the Russians.
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No they weren't. The record-breaking (at least it should have been record-breaking, no thanks to the technical panel) skate of the night (and no, I'm not talking about any of the medalists) was scored like it was done at a 2009 Grand Prix event. Meanwhile, Gracie Gold ended up 4th. Wrongly.
 
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