What did Sotnikova do wrong?

chuckm said:

It's interesting that the only Senior event Adelina won until now (other than Russian Nationals) was 2011 Golden Spin. She is also the first Olympic ladies champion who has never stood on the World podium. That makes the sudden explosion of her PCS scores even more inexplicable.

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It was bc she gave the skate of her life, skated with such spunk, skated in front of the home audience, skated like she wanted to win!

chuckm said:

It's interesting that the only Senior event Adelina won until now (other than Russian Nationals) was 2011 Golden Spin. She is also the first Olympic ladies champion who has never stood on the World podium. That makes the sudden explosion of her PCS scores even more inexplicable.

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Well, to be fair Adelina's scores at Euros and the only contender here she competed against directly this season, Kostner, were very comparable. Kostner's went up, so did Adelina's.

Adelina's PCS at Euros were considerably lower than Carolina's. Adelina's went up nearly twice as much as Carolina's did. That implies that Adelina's skating skills are that much better, which is clearly NOT the case.

chuckm said:

Adelina's PCS at Euros were considerably lower than Carolina's. Adelina's went up nearly twice as much as Carolina's did. That implies that Adelina's skating skills are that much better, which is clearly NOT the case.

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Euros:
SP PCS
Sotnikova 31.91
Kostner 33.68
FS PCS
Sotnikova 69.60
Kostner 71.02
Olympics
SP PCS
Sotnikova 35.55
Kostner 36.63
FS PCS
Sotnikova 74.41
Kostner 73.77

Nater said:

Consistency has nothing to do with components. You're kind of agreeing with me there. And if Yuna Skated Zijuns 2013 Worlds free skate she's have gotten a 150 score. That's my point.

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No, we're not agreeing--you're backtracking and changing the argument. You argued that newer/younger skaters were deliberately held down in components for the sake of veterans. That's just not true with Adelina. The judges would have loved to reward Adelina as soon as she debuted on the senior season as a junior world champ and Russian national champ. They all knew the wave of Russian ladies skaters was just beginning, and THEY ALL KNEW Sochi 2014 was coming soon. Adelina just struggled to deliver. She had a THREE-FALL FS at 2012 Cup of Russia in a disastrous performance. What could the judges possibly do? Who were the big, bad veterans that were pushing Adelina's components down? (Gracie Gold was on that podium, btw.) This was in a season that would end in the Worlds that would decide the Olympic spots. There was a lot at stake, but neither Adelina nor Elizaveta could deliver that season.

Being consistent has nothing--technically--to do with components, but it certainly does have a lot to do with winning, and winning helps your reputation. And it works the opposite way--being inconsistent and losing (or winning controversially) hurts your reputation; veterans are not immune to that (see Chan, Patrick).

At the end of the day, Adelina's history as a senior, devoid of any big victories outside of Nationals, didn't even matter. The judges gave her huge PCS at the Olympics and she won. So again, you have no right to complain about veterans being held up and newcomers being held down, and stop viewing everything through that framework. It's a lot more complicated than that.

For example, Zijun has some issues of her own, exclusive to her, that prevented her from getting a higher score at 2013 Worlds. Ice coverage (the first 2 or 3 jumps, she stays pretty much on one side of the rink), skating skills, etc. She had a flutz and her jumps were rotated but weren't huge and don't otherwise fulfill bullets for a lot of +GOE. Zijun gave a lovely performance but she wasn't really lowballed. She fell in the SP anyway so her placement was fine. (Um, btw, Mao Asada was lowballed in PCS for skating early in the Olympics FS, so I don't know why you keep going on and on about newcomers being the only ones that get lowballed.)

Then don't say that Adelina inconsistency is why her components were held down. It makes no sense.

You can't even keep a straight line of thought.

There is no way to justify the way pcs is scored other than reputation, esp in regards to newer and lesser known skaters.

Hanyu's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF (+16 PCS) all within a few weeks. The same posters who defended Hanyu's meteoric PCS rise vs Patrick Chan's PCS are now saying Sotnikova shouldn't experience the same rise for skating a difficult program extremely well?

Sotnikova vs Kim did the SAME "wrong" as Hanyu vs Chan, they beat them by *slightly* lower PCS but bigger TES.

Hanyu fell during his GPF FS, Patrick didn't, he skated more tentatively, but Hanyu beat him.

chuckm said:

Adelina's PCS at Euros were considerably lower than Carolina's. Adelina's went up nearly twice as much as Carolina's did. That implies that Adelina's skating skills are that much better, which is clearly NOT the case.

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Grooming for the Olympics, you know. Didn't you see the graph of two Russian girls PCS over the past year? It is hard to take those seriously.

qwertyskates said:

Hanyu's LP PCS went from 76+ at SC, 81+ at TEB to 92+ GPF (+16 PCS) all within a few weeks. The same posters who defended Hanyu's meteoric PCS rise vs Patrick Chan's PCS are now saying Sotnikova shouldn't experience the same rise for skating a difficult program extremely well?

Sotnikova vs Kim did the SAME "wrong" as Hanyu vs Chan, they beat them by *slightly* lower PCS but bigger TES.

Hanyu fell during his GPF FS, Patrick didn't, he skated more tentatively, but Hanyu beat him.

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They're hypocrites.

And Hanyu was getting that with dubious posture and falls as well.

qwertyskates said:

Hanyu fell during his GPF FS, Patrick didn't, he skated more tentatively, but Hanyu beat him.

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Patrick made other mistakes what are almost as costly as falls.

Hanyu's PCS is also inflated but in the end, his victory is not really in dispute, which is why people don't care as much. Chan screwed himself over with that mistake in the SP and his sloppy *** LP.

moviechick said:

Hanyu's PCS is also inflated but in the end, his victory is not really in dispute, which is why people don't care as much. Chan screwed himself over with that mistake in the SP and his sloppy *** LP.

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Let's stay with the frame of reference here, ie. PCS.

Since everyone questioned Sotnikova's PCS increase, and declare it isn't possible, it is controversial, etc. I am using Hanyu's to illustrate the same type of meteoric PCS rise, to demonstrate that it WASN'T AS CONTROVERSIAL, at least the whole of Canada didn't attempt to petition the ISU, there weren't thread after thread on GS to decry Hanyu's PCS inflation, no threats of mass exodus, etc., from the very same posters who claim they're leaving FS because of THIS unfair judging, Sotnikova's PCS inflation, etc.

Either it isn't possible for PCS, which measures components that do not vary as much competition to competition, to inflate like this or it is.

It looks like for these old and new posters, it really isn't about unfair judgment in PCS, it is about unfair judgment for ONE skater.

I didn't think Hanyu or anyone deserves this RATE of increase, but just accepted it's the way it goes. Hanyu benefited, as did Sotnikova. In the end though, the overall skate matters more, and I agree with Hanyu's win as well as Sotnikova's. They're rising stars and they beat the veterans.

A sloppy performance beating another sloppy performance is not really going to rile anyone up though. I think everyone agrees that the mens comp as a disaster.

But when you have clean/flawless performances from Yuna, Carolina and Mao coming in behind Adelina in the FS, that is obviously going to be more glaring than the men's event.

moviechick said:

A sloppy performance beating another sloppy performance is not really going to rile anyone up though. I think everyone agrees that the mens comp as a disaster.

But when you have clean/flawless performances from Yuna, Carolina and Mao coming in behind Adelina in the FS, that is obviously going to be more glaring than the men's event.

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I'm talking about GPF, where Hanyu also fell in his FS, traveled in his final spin, and made other errors. Chan didn't fall, has better SS, CH, etc., despite mistakes in elements. PCS is about everything in between the big elements, do you even know that?

You are arguing there's NO WAY for PCS to rise at the rate that was increasing for Sotnikova, and I'm demonstrating that indeed with Hanyu's GPF gold over Chan, PCS did rise faster than Sotnikova's and no one raised a stink, no one made videos, no one tried to boycott Figure Skating.

Nater said:

Then don't say that Adelina inconsistency is why her components were held down. It makes no sense.

You can't even keep a straight line of thought.

There is no way to justify the way pcs is scored other than reputation, esp in regards to newer and lesser known skaters.

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How does landing the triples in her LP for the first time have anything to do with PCS? People are like "she finally didnt fall on her ***... lets just throw bonus points at her!"

sk8in said:

How does landing the triples in her LP for the first time have anything to do with PCS? People are like "she finally didnt fall on her ***... lets just throw bonus points at her!"

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Like they did with Hanyu, yet no one filed petitions with ISU when he won GPF with +11 (81 to 92) PCS increase in FS alone from TEB to GPF...:sarcasm:

sk8in said:

How does landing the triples in her LP for the first time have anything to do with PCS? People are like "she finally didnt fall on her ***... lets just throw bonus points at her!"

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Clearly you didn't read my posts. Don't embarrass yourself. Read before replying and don't get it twisted.

vegarin said:

Patrick made other mistakes what are almost as costly as falls.

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What does Patrick's mistakes have to do with Hanyu's PCS rising from 81+ to 92+ within 20 days?

You all claim that PCS cannot rise so rapidly, however, PCS DID, and even more rapidly, for Hanyu just a couple of months back to COMPLETE SILENCE.

No media outrage, no petitions to ISU.

And I'm fine with that, though some of us pointed that out.

Hypocrisy much?

jaylee said:

You know, you need to stop with disgusting fabricated assumptions like the above. You have no proof, no evidence whatsoever, and you will never have proof that these programs were "cleverly designed to cost to an easy gold on her reputation with as little technical content as possible to win." If they wanted to make it as easy as possible, Yu-na would've swapped out her 3Lz/3T for a second-half 2A/3T instead, which would make an INCREASE in base value even though the technical content became easier. Yu-Na never said Olympic gold was her goal, so she couldn't possibly have planned for an easy gold.

Adelina surely will win some competitions in the future, and she will surely lose some. One thing's for sure, though--she has a ways to go to matching a fraction of Yu-Na's hard-earned accomplishments. Yu-Na herself was lowballed in PCS when she first came on the senior scene when competing against seniors with more "reputation", but she overcame that to medal at every GP and win her first GP Final. Adelina has yet to even win a single GP, and it's not because she was lowballed in PCS compared to others. Heck, Anna Pogorilaya has won a GP, but Adelina has not. That says a lot.

It's easy to tear down the veterans at the end of their career because we've seen them skate for 5, 6, 7 years on the senior international level, and celebrate the young skaters who are fresh and new. But what goes around comes around.

Adelina is now a veteran and the Olympic champion, and everyone will be gunning for her. Let's see how she deals with having a target taped to her back, and everyone comparing her to younger, fresher skaters with bouncy jumps and lots of energy. Let's see what happens as she gets older, and deals with injuries, and the constant pressure of being expected to win. It will be interesting what her programs/skating will look like in 3-4 years compared to now.

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Actually Jaylee, if Yuna wanted to make it as easy as possible, she would have just retired after 2010. Instead she came back and skated in a hostile arena on a broken foot.

And Nater is not a very intelligent poster. The tech panel alone made the difference of 5 points, by swapping the levels on the step sequences and not calling Adelina for UR in the LP.

Of course with all of the other riggage, the advantage for Yuna should have been considerable.

Just more ******** red herrings from another person trying to bury the dead bodies.

Blades of Passion said:

Do you have any idea what choreography and interpretation are?

Veterans almost always have better musicality and finesse in their movements because they've been doing it longer. This is certainly true of Yu-na's performance with how she does movements directly TO the music and has a clearer sense of purpose and sharpness in her body movements. Throwing a few counter turns into your program may give more transitions, but it doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the PCS.

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:thumbsup: