Calculate COP for 1988 ladies Olympics, anyone??

badknees · Mar 8, 2014

I'm not anywhere near expert enough to do this but after watching You Tube videos and reading the comments on the 1988 Olympics ladies SP, there may have been much more of a judging controversy with favoritism going on then anyone realized.

Would love to have someone do COP judging on the ladies SP and LP and see what would have, could have or should have been.

Interesting to think that there has perhaps always been favoritism going on in figure skating and unless it was sooooo obvious, no one really screamed about it. With COP it seems that it's scored in a more black and white manner, like an actual court case with evidence, which allows more justifiable screaming about bad judging.

Just wondering if Kadavy (SP only), Manley or other ladies were not judged fairly and realistically. Should Witt really have gone down in history as a two time gold medalist?

Blades of Passion · Mar 8, 2014

badknees said:
Should Witt really have gone down in history as a two time gold medalist?

No.

Darnella2005 · Mar 8, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
No.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

pohatta · Mar 8, 2014

I'd like to see Ito's LP base value compared to anyone else. I think she did her 3-3 on the second half of her program.

will74lsn · Mar 8, 2014

Of course Ito would have won the FS. She was so much ahead of anyone else. I calculated once her TES for the jumps only and she was something like 18-20 points higher than the second best. And of course she would have got good to very good GOEs on several elements. :bow:

pangtongfan · Mar 8, 2014

Under the scoring system in place at the time Manley probably should have been the overall winner. I am pretty sure seeing some of Witts figures she didnt even deserve 3rd place. In the short Witt should have been 4th and Manley 5th, both were overmarked and overplaced in that phase. Of course for those who think figures shouldnt have even existed anymore by 88 then Ito probably should have been the gold medalist.

This is why comparing people by Olympic Golds is a joke. Witt should only be a 1 time Oly Gold medalist (at best). Kwan arguably should be a 1 or 2 time. Kim definitely should be a 2 time. Henie possibly should be only a 1 time (Plack Szabo retired a year sooner than planned due to the scandalous win for Henie at the 27 worlds, and Colledge was better in 36). Ito with more luck could easily be a 2 time, Yamaguchi had she stayed in two more years would be a 2 time easily, and so on. At the very least it is certainly not any representation of ability and who are the better skaters.

gkelly · Mar 8, 2014

For the short program, in 1988 all the skaters would have been doing pretty much the same elements. The only difference would have been the jump combination. And perhaps, using 2014 rules, level B vs. level 1 for some spins and steps. I don't think anyone would have earned level 2 by today's rules, but it might be possible.

Beyond that, the distinctions would mostly come down to GOEs and PCS. There's room for more difference of opinion there.

Do you want to collect videos of these performances so we can all watch the same versions? And those who want could try our hand at scoring PCS and GOEs?

I wouldn't expect complete agreement among Golden Skate posters or among official judges. So the more people who offer scores, the more representative consensus could be developed.

juppiter · Mar 9, 2014

wrong thread

aussie_SKATES · Mar 9, 2014

A member from another message board set up a judging exercise several years ago, recruiting others to help judge the top ten from the 1988 Olympic ladies short program.

Calculating the results, from memory, I think the overall winner was Caryn Kadavy followed by Midori Ito and Debi Thomas. Witt was sixth behind Trenary and Manley.

FSGMT · Mar 9, 2014

It would all depend on PCS and GOE, and we know how difficult it is to calculate that!

Witt's and Ito's PCS in the FS would be crucial, I think... I personally really like Katarina's Carmen, and I would give her probably high 8s (maybe even 9s) for PE and IN, but I know that a lot of people would really "punish" those posing sections and give her really low marks for TR and CH; and then there is Ito, who is really a question mark, because she did have some incredible qualities (speed, power, ice coverage, involvement of the crow) but lacked a lot of refinement, so I think that we would see a lot of completely different opinions... Anyway, I could try to do that, when I have time, just for fun!

gkelly · Mar 9, 2014

The short program will be all about PCS and GOE.

The long program will be mostly about base values/TES. Including how we decide to handle situations where skaters have extra elements or missing elements according to 2014 rules. And maybe some ambiguous calls on levels.

FSGMT · Mar 9, 2014

gkelly said:
The long program will be mostly about base values/TES. Including how we decide to handle situations where skaters have extra elements or missing elements according to 2014 rules. And maybe some ambiguous calls on levels.

Exactly! Especially about those step sequences, that are not really "step sequences" under today's rules, so they would all receive no value or level B I think... The same for ChSq: should we consider a single spiral preceeded and/or followed by some steps a ChSq? And, what about those skaters who didn't have anything not even similar to a ChSq?

pangtongfan · Mar 9, 2014

aussie_SKATES said:
A member from another message board set up a judging exercise several years ago, recruiting others to help judge the top ten from the 1988 Olympic ladies short program.

Calculating the results, from memory, I think the overall winner was Caryn Kadavy followed by Midori Ito and Debi Thomas. Witt was sixth behind Trenary and Manley.

Hmmm I remember one too (not sure if we are thinking of the same one or not) but I recall Witt being 4th, Kadavy 3rd behind Ito and Thomas, and Trenary down in about 8th. The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that Ito, Thomas, and Kadavy were the top 3 in the short, in whatever order.

ks777 · Mar 9, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Hmmm I remember one too (not sure if we are thinking of the same one or not) but I recall Witt being 4th, Kadavy 3rd behind Ito and Thomas, and Trenary down in about 8th. The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that Ito, Thomas, and Kadavy were the top 3 in the short, in whatever order.

Hey Pangtonfan, what is your handle name on FSU? Hopefully not JudgeJudy..

Mafke · Mar 9, 2014

aussie_SKATES said:
A member from another message board set up a judging exercise several years ago, recruiting others to help judge the top ten from the 1988 Olympic ladies short program.

Calculating the results, from memory, I think the overall winner was Caryn Kadavy followed by Midori Ito and Debi Thomas. Witt was sixth behind Trenary and Manley.

That would have been the SP only (since Kadavy withdrew after the SP due to illness)

BlackPack · Mar 9, 2014

You're going to apply COP to figures too?

Many skaters have said that figures were extremely political. Some skaters even claimed to be poor skaters in figures, but since their fortunes and reputations have improved, so did their marks in figures. The greatest figures skater Trixie Schuba was so good that even her marks were considered too low for what she did.

Calculate COP for 1988 ladies Olympics, anyone??

badknees

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Darnella2005

pohatta

will74lsn

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

gkelly

juppiter

aussie_SKATES

FSGMT

gkelly

FSGMT

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

ks777

Mafke

BlackPack

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