Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
Thanks for the link. I'm not sure if it's what's actually used in the judging criteria, though. For example, the link says "When performed correctly the arc of the entry edge does not skid and the skater does not pivot (pre-rotate) off the toe pick." However, discussed in another thread, apparently skidding is common (in the axel for example) and people are allowed to and do rotate up to 90 degrees on their toe pick prior to takeoff, so that they are facing nearly (but not quite) fully forward when their feet leave the ground. The link also says " The minimum rotation for a single axel is 1&1/4 rotation in the air. The minimum rotation for a double axel is 2&1/4 rotations in the air. The minimum rotation for a triple axel is 3&1/4 rotations in the air." However, from the pre-rotation thread, a skater's edge is allowed to be up to 90 degrees rotated (or more precisely as long as it's still traveling/skidding in the same direction, i.e. backward for non-axel and forward for axel), the toe pick can pivot up to slightly less than 90 degrees (or more precisely, as long as the skate is not facing fully forward on takeoff; if the edge only rotated 45 degrees for example this means the toe pick could pivot up to but less than 135 degrees), and the skate can be under-rotated by 90 degrees on landing. So minimum rotation for a single axel is actually 3/4 rotation not the 1 1/4 rotation that the link says, for a double axel it's actually 1 3/4 rotation not the 2 1/4 rotation that the link says, etc. For the flip, it says "It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air." but a good number of skaters do pivot on the toe pick to end up facing roughly (but not quite) forward by the time the toe pick leaves the ice.

My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.
No one jumps triples and quads off a full blade. That's a myth perpetuated by non-skaters who barely every analyze jumps with video and only look at screen caps to link and bash skaters. By analyze I mean analyze - actually looking and seeing how the skater and the skate blade interacts with the ice on jump take-offs, and WHY it does that. Simply playing back a YouTube video at half speed looking for a specific screen cap to prove a point is not analysis. I am so tired of reading "so and so has full blade jumps" on a forum, when that simply isn't true. It doesn't matter what skater they're talking about (I've seen people say this of Asada, Sotnikova and others). Apart from the terrible toe axels that some skaters tack onto wonky jump landings to get the requirements, this almost never happens...

This is what people post on forums complaining about: http://s28.postimg.org/xjqg6iud9/Scr...01_22_28_1.png

This is what they don't post, cause they aren't going forwards a few frames: http://s28.postimg.org/byldiwxml/Scr...01_22_48_1.png

Both from the same jump (a flip jump) and the direction of travel is basically about up the center of the screen caps (bottom to top), to give you an idea of the pivot action. Some skaters pivot more, some a little less. The jump can pivot to forwards and still be clean on the take-off. A lot of ladies skaters actually do this (Asada and Sotnikova, for example) on a lot of their jumps. Kim's flip is more similar to the one linked above - that take-off is actually conducive to a bigger jump. Some coaches call it a "power take-off." The fuller pivot sometimes work better for skaters who don't jump as high, but rotate well and want to get into their rotations ASAP.

The "full blade" jumping that people complain about (which only happens sometimes on badly tacked on doubles in combinations or by low level skaters, which are usually severely prerotated anyways i.e. toe axels), is nothing more than a screen cap of the skater's body absorbing the impact of the jump take-off. I can write a whole page on this, but I think the best way to see how ridiculous it sounds is to put on some figure skates and try to jump any decently sized double, triple, or quadruple jump off the skate rocker and not possibly give yourself a concussion after your skate flies forwards and you fall and bang your head on the ice.

You can pivot to forwards on practically any non axel jump and get no deduction or GOE fault. The judges won't even be bothered by it. They also won't think of it, because they know (many of them being former skaters themselves) what happens on a jump. There's a nice little saying among many coaches: "All jumps take-off forwards." It's true. The ENTRANCE EDGE may be backwards, but the actual TAKE-OFF of the jumps are more often than not closer to forwards than backwards.

On an axel you can go sideways or a smidgen past sideways.

There is no elite skater competing right now that I know with straight back and forward jump take offs. Not on triples and quads (or double axels). Most probably wouldn't consider it safe to jump that way. I don't personally know any coaches that teach jumping that way. Even back in the 1940s when Dick Button was doing Triple Loops for the first time, he pivoted to forwars on his take-off and many of those skaters had the same reaction with the ice in their skate/ankles on jump take-offs, because to try to stop that is to willfully risk injury (Ankle Sprains, Back Issues, Knee Issues, possibly even broken bones, and other types of overuse injuries).