Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 79 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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Ven

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Did you even watch the video and look at the pic I posted? You image shows her after she's already rolled the skate around a bit. You can tell because her knees are very bent in your picture, which shows she has been on the ice a bit, longer than the pic I posted. But nice try :laugh:

If you are just going to argue for the sake of arguing, then you'll have to accept being ignored. The video was in slow motion, and the screen grab was the exact moment her blade touched the ice.

Not that it matters to you in particular, since you have already long ago outed yourself as a troll.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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If you are just going to argue for the sake of arguing, then you'll have to accept being ignored. The video was in slow motion, and the screen grab was the exact moment her blade touched the ice.

Not that it matters to you in particular, since you have already long ago outed yourself as a troll.

You do realize if the knee is bent in her landing legs it's because of the force of the landing, which means it was straight when the pick touched and then bent. This is how it looked when her leg was straight and landing on the ice:

http://postimg.org/image/lgb2cb15r/

Again, your pic from "the moment her blade touched the ice":

http://s1240.photobucket.com/user/ToFarAwayTimes/media/Lutz_zps498d6729.png.html

Your pic does show 99% rotation but it isn't where her blade touched the ice. Why can't you admit that you're wrong on this one thing? This is what I'm talking about when I say you Yuna fans ignore any evidence that questions what you're saying, and attack anyone as a troll who disagrees.

At least this ends the discussion that Yuna and Adelina did the same number of triples.
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
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This is the exact moment her blade touches the ice. You can see the skate is 99% rotated, and her upper body is about 1/8 short.


Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).

Incidentally, this is my beef with a lot of the discussion: I don't think the rotation on landing for jumps is being analyzed correctly. I haven't gotten into the rotation of jumps much because I think the process is substantially more involved than what people do "easily" so to speak; the short explanation is that most people don't take into account the foreshortening effect of the camera zooming in from afar at roughly the same plane as the ice rink, which leads to a number of distortions, and human perception is very unreliable due to those effects. There's a more accurate way which I'll post about if I have time but it'll take a while. Anyway, maybe I should ask this in another part of the forums, but:

1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice? Or the blade (include the blade immediately behind the toe pick)? Basically, what determines when to measure the skate's degree of rotation? (If there is disagreement about this, then what are the sources that give the correct consideration?)
2) Is the line that the rotation is measured against considered to be a straight line from where the skater takes off, or are there any allowances for the skater "following the curve" in the air in terms of the tracing along the ice? (Of course, from physics, the skater will travel in a straight line, but I'm asking about the angle that the degree rotation is measured against.)
3) Similarly, is the line that the rotation is measured against dependent on which foot, or something else like say the skater's center of mass? Intuition would say the edge foot, but I'm not sure on this so asking about it.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).

My advice would be to watch the slow motion from the performance here (at 6:33): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g

You can see on the landing she skates into the jump right to left, lands facing to the left, rolls around and skates in the opposite direction she was facing when her toe pick touched. It wasn't more than 1/2 short but it was between 1/4 and 1/2 short, quite clearly.
 

Alba

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Feb 26, 2014
1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice? Or the blade (include the blade immediately behind the toe pick)? Basically, what determines when to measure the skate's degree of rotation? (If there is disagreement about this, then what are the sources that give the correct consideration?)
2) Is the line that the rotation is measured against considered to be a straight line from where the skater takes off, or are there any allowances for the skater "following the curve" in the air in terms of the tracing along the ice? (Of course, from physics, the skater will travel in a straight line, but I'm asking about the angle that the degree rotation is measured against.)
3) Similarly, is the line that the rotation is measured against dependent on which foot, or something else like say the skater's center of mass? Intuition would say the edge foot, but I'm not sure on this so asking about it.

I don't know if this might help you.

http://iceskatingresources.org/EvaluationOfJumps.html

I'm not sure I understand all you're asking. It's because of my english, but Tracy Wilson during Vancouver Ladies Sp was explaining on the table with a skating boot, about the rotation and under rotation.
The file it's too big so I can't post it here, but she says that in a reply you have to watch when the toe pick, not the full blade, touch the ice.
If a skater completes the rotation, in a curve, with full blade (therefore I suppose is helped by the free leg as the articles I post it suggest), is under rotated.
 
Joined
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Neither of these images are telling me much about any possible under-rotation since they don't provide the context (i.e. the direction of travel, etc.).

I agree. Photo and video "evidence" on under-rotations is rarely conclusive. It is usually accompanied by comments such as, "See?!!!" Um..no, I don't. :)

1) Is the rotation at landing considered to be when any part of the skate (including the toe pick) touches the ice?

It is my understanding that this is correct. What the technical specials actually call, though, is another question.

Some skaters (Mirai) tend to "reach down" with their toe picks on landing, which causes under-rotation problems.
 
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drivingmissdaisy

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I agree. Photo and video "evidence" on under-rotations is rarely conclusive. It is usually accompanied by comments such as, "See?!!!" Um..no, I don't.

This is not one of those times. I'm not saying the panel cheated to give Yuna full credit, but it was definitely a missed call.
 
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This is not one of those times. I'm not saying the panel cheated to give Yuna full credit, but it was definitely a missed call.

Here's what I think. One of these days we will be able to bring technology to bear that can actually measure the number of degrees of rotation that skaters achieve. When that happens, I expect that people will be surprised to discover that every jump in figure skating is under-rotated. Then we can stop drawing pictures of protractors onto still video frames, saying, "look! look!"
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Here's what I think. One of these days we will be able to bring technology to bear that can actually measure the number of degrees of rotation that skaters achieve. When that happens, I expect that people will be surprised to discover that every jump in figure skating is under-rotated. Then we can stop drawing pictures of protractors onto still video frames, saying, "look! look!"

I find it disingenuous that you would so easily jump on the "Adelina was overscored" bandwagon but when someone posts a video and a still frame showing Yuna clearly underrotated a jump all of a sudden the technology isn't good enough to make a determination. It sure seemed good enough when you claimed Adelina's 3T was <. :rolleye:
 
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I find it disingenuous that you would so easily jump on the "Adelina was overscored" bandwagon but when someone posts a video and a still frame showing Yuna clearly underrotated a jump all of a sudden the technology isn't good enough to make a determination. It sure seemed good enough when you claimed Adelina's 3T was <. :rolleye:

Are you talking to me? I never said a peep about whether Adelina's 3T was under-rotated or not. Or whether Adelina deserved a level 3 or a level 4 on her step sequence. My whole point is quite the opposite. I do not have a sufficiently expert eye to determine these things (and, to tell the truth, I don't think that most of the impassioned posters on these threads do either).

Is this is the picture that is supposed to convince me of something?

http://postimg.org/image/lgb2cb15r/

I cannot tell from this picture whether her skate is actually on the ice or not quite yet. I cannot tell whether or not she had already made contact with the ice a fraction of a second earlier. From this picture I cannot tell what the angle of her skate is (compared to what?) From this picture I cannot tell exactly what direction her blade was pointing at take-off. From this picture I cannot tell how many degrees of rotation she had achieved before the picture was taken.

Frankly, I have little patience for these video wars where fans of one skater or another pretend to see evidence where non exists that their favorite skater is the bees knees and the other guy, yuk.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Sorry MM, you're right. The picture is clearer if you watch the YouTube video; the landing is what is shown in the picture but if you haven't seen the video you wouldn't know where she took off. It is frustrating that people act like Yuna was scored overly harsh relative to Adelina, but the point is the panel missed calls like the one I posted that benefitted other skaters as well.
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
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I don't know if this might help you.

http://iceskatingresources.org/EvaluationOfJumps.html

I'm not sure I understand all you're asking. It's because of my english, but Tracy Wilson during Vancouver Ladies Sp was explaining on the table with a skating boot, about the rotation and under rotation.
The file it's too big so I can't post it here, but she says that in a reply you have to watch when the toe pick, not the full blade, touch the ice.
If a skater completes the rotation, in a curve, with full blade (therefore I suppose is helped by the free leg as the articles I post it suggest), is under rotated.

Thanks for the link. I'm not sure if it's what's actually used in the judging criteria, though. For example, the link says "When performed correctly the arc of the entry edge does not skid and the skater does not pivot (pre-rotate) off the toe pick." However, discussed in another thread, apparently skidding is common (in the axel for example) and people are allowed to and do rotate up to 90 degrees on their toe pick prior to takeoff, so that they are facing nearly (but not quite) fully forward when their feet leave the ground. The link also says " The minimum rotation for a single axel is 1&1/4 rotation in the air. The minimum rotation for a double axel is 2&1/4 rotations in the air. The minimum rotation for a triple axel is 3&1/4 rotations in the air." However, from the pre-rotation thread, a skater's edge is allowed to be up to 90 degrees rotated (or more precisely as long as it's still traveling/skidding in the same direction, i.e. backward for non-axel and forward for axel), the toe pick can pivot up to slightly less than 90 degrees (or more precisely, as long as the skate is not facing fully forward on takeoff; if the edge only rotated 45 degrees for example this means the toe pick could pivot up to but less than 135 degrees), and the skate can be under-rotated by 90 degrees on landing. So minimum rotation for a single axel is actually 3/4 rotation not the 1 1/4 rotation that the link says, for a double axel it's actually 1 3/4 rotation not the 2 1/4 rotation that the link says, etc. For the flip, it says "It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air." but a good number of skaters do pivot on the toe pick to end up facing roughly (but not quite) forward by the time the toe pick leaves the ice.

My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.
 
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^ There is a figure skating coach named Trevor Laak who has achieved a certain amount of notoriety by addressing these questions head on. His "jump secrets" have attracted controversy, but basically he says, forget the rule book, watch what world champions actually do, and you will see that severe pre-rotation is a necessary part of proper jump technique. If you (a coach) do not teach this to your students, then you are shortchanging them and they will never be able to compete with the elite skaters who know the tricks. A quad should never have more than 3.25 revolutions -- if you do more, you are not doing it right.

I am not advocating this guy's views, but here is his web site if you want to explore them.

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com
 
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Alba

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My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.

I know what you mean but from my experience I haven't been able to find someone who can describes the "ideal" jumping positions etc.
I mean there are a lot of links, videos, experts, skaters, coaches etc. who writes about it but the confusing thing for me is that not all of them do say the same thing.

So this does makes me wonder. If people who are involved with this sport do not all agree which is the best way of a take-off, skidding, landing, pre-rotation, poisiton etc., how could the judges be? :confused:
 

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^ There is a figure skating coach named Trevor Laak who has achieved a certain amount of notoriety by addressing these questions head on. His "jump secrets" have attracted controversy, but basically he says, forget the rule book, watch what world champions actually do, and you will see that severe pre-rotation is a necessary part of proper jump technique. If you (a coach) do not teach this to your students, then you are shortchanging them and they will never be able to compete with the elite skaters who know the tricks. A quad should never have more than 3.25 revolutions -- if you do more, you are not doing it right.

I am not advocating this guy's views, but here is his web site if you want to explore them.

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com

He's right. And the other coaches on his website icoachskating.com agree. They are some of the best in the world.

All good coaches (or skaters) who use video know this.

It's not worth it to care what people on the sidelines think.

The judges and technical specialists know this as well.
 

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Thanks for the link. I'm not sure if it's what's actually used in the judging criteria, though. For example, the link says "When performed correctly the arc of the entry edge does not skid and the skater does not pivot (pre-rotate) off the toe pick." However, discussed in another thread, apparently skidding is common (in the axel for example) and people are allowed to and do rotate up to 90 degrees on their toe pick prior to takeoff, so that they are facing nearly (but not quite) fully forward when their feet leave the ground. The link also says " The minimum rotation for a single axel is 1&1/4 rotation in the air. The minimum rotation for a double axel is 2&1/4 rotations in the air. The minimum rotation for a triple axel is 3&1/4 rotations in the air." However, from the pre-rotation thread, a skater's edge is allowed to be up to 90 degrees rotated (or more precisely as long as it's still traveling/skidding in the same direction, i.e. backward for non-axel and forward for axel), the toe pick can pivot up to slightly less than 90 degrees (or more precisely, as long as the skate is not facing fully forward on takeoff; if the edge only rotated 45 degrees for example this means the toe pick could pivot up to but less than 135 degrees), and the skate can be under-rotated by 90 degrees on landing. So minimum rotation for a single axel is actually 3/4 rotation not the 1 1/4 rotation that the link says, for a double axel it's actually 1 3/4 rotation not the 2 1/4 rotation that the link says, etc. For the flip, it says "It is a major error for a skater to pivot to forward on the toe pick just before lifting off into the air." but a good number of skaters do pivot on the toe pick to end up facing roughly (but not quite) forward by the time the toe pick leaves the ice.

My point is I don't know if the link describes the "ideal" jumping positions or what not, but I'm not sure if the judging actually considers the points described. For example, a number of skaters do put their weight on their toe pick foot (in fact, put the entire blade down) when they jump -- is there actually a penalty for this in the GOE? Etc. And of course, apparently pivoting off the toe pick is not only allowed but strongly encouraged for multi-rotation jumps, to the extent that pretty much everyone is facing forward when they jump, with exceptions for a few skaters/jumps. Is it considered in the GOEs or landing rotation when a skater takes off while still facing backward rather than using the full "allowed" amount of pre-rotation? While the link pretty much simply says pre-rotation is wrong.

No one jumps triples and quads off a full blade. That's a myth perpetuated by non-skaters who barely every analyze jumps with video and only look at screen caps to link and bash skaters. By analyze I mean analyze - actually looking and seeing how the skater and the skate blade interacts with the ice on jump take-offs, and WHY it does that. Simply playing back a YouTube video at half speed looking for a specific screen cap to prove a point is not analysis. I am so tired of reading "so and so has full blade jumps" on a forum, when that simply isn't true. It doesn't matter what skater they're talking about (I've seen people say this of Asada, Sotnikova and others). Apart from the terrible toe axels that some skaters tack onto wonky jump landings to get the requirements, this almost never happens...

This is what people post on forums complaining about: http://s28.postimg.org/xjqg6iud9/Screenshot_2014_06_26_01_22_28_1.png

This is what they don't post, cause they aren't going forwards a few frames: http://s28.postimg.org/byldiwxml/Screenshot_2014_06_26_01_22_48_1.png

Both from the same jump (a flip jump) and the direction of travel is basically about up the center of the screen caps (bottom to top), to give you an idea of the pivot action. Some skaters pivot more, some a little less. The jump can pivot to forwards and still be clean on the take-off. A lot of ladies skaters actually do this (Asada and Sotnikova, for example) on a lot of their jumps. Kim's flip is more similar to the one linked above - that take-off is actually conducive to a bigger jump. Some coaches call it a "power take-off." The fuller pivot sometimes work better for skaters who don't jump as high, but rotate well and want to get into their rotations ASAP.

The "full blade" jumping that people complain about (which only happens sometimes on badly tacked on doubles in combinations or by low level skaters, which are usually severely prerotated anyways i.e. toe axels), is nothing more than a screen cap of the skater's body absorbing the impact of the jump take-off. I can write a whole page on this, but I think the best way to see how ridiculous it sounds is to put on some figure skates and try to jump any decently sized double, triple, or quadruple jump off the skate rocker and not possibly give yourself a concussion after your skate flies forwards and you fall and bang your head on the ice.

You can pivot to forwards on practically any non axel jump and get no deduction or GOE fault. The judges won't even be bothered by it. They also won't think of it, because they know (many of them being former skaters themselves) what happens on a jump. There's a nice little saying among many coaches: "All jumps take-off forwards." It's true. The ENTRANCE EDGE may be backwards, but the actual TAKE-OFF of the jumps are more often than not closer to forwards than backwards.

On an axel you can go sideways or a smidgen past sideways.

There is no elite skater competing right now that I know with straight back and forward jump take offs. Not on triples and quads (or double axels). Most probably wouldn't consider it safe to jump that way. I don't personally know any coaches that teach jumping that way. Even back in the 1940s when Dick Button was doing Triple Loops for the first time, he pivoted to forwars on his take-off and many of those skaters had the same reaction with the ice in their skate/ankles on jump take-offs, because to try to stop that is to willfully risk injury (Ankle Sprains, Back Issues, Knee Issues, possibly even broken bones, and other types of overuse injuries).
 

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Did you even watch the video and look at the pic I posted? You image shows her after she's already rolled the skate around a bit. You can tell because her knees are very bent in your picture, which shows she has been on the ice a bit, longer than the pic I posted. But nice try :laugh:

The ironic thing about it is that he posted it right after your screen cap (which is actually the video frozen at the landing point, Lol). I didn't think anyone was willing to lie so blatantly about something that is as clear as day, and publicly in video on YouTube and other sites.

That second triple lutz wasn't even borderline. It was clearly UR.
 

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Are you talking to me? I never said a peep about whether Adelina's 3T was under-rotated or not. Or whether Adelina deserved a level 3 or a level 4 on her step sequence. My whole point is quite the opposite. I do not have a sufficiently expert eye to determine these things (and, to tell the truth, I don't think that most of the impassioned posters on these threads do either).

Is this is the picture that is supposed to convince me of something?

http://postimg.org/image/lgb2cb15r/

I cannot tell from this picture whether her skate is actually on the ice or not quite yet. I cannot tell whether or not she had already made contact with the ice a fraction of a second earlier. From this picture I cannot tell what the angle of her skate is (compared to what?) From this picture I cannot tell exactly what direction her blade was pointing at take-off. From this picture I cannot tell how many degrees of rotation she had achieved before the picture was taken.

Frankly, I have little patience for these video wars where fans of one skater or another pretend to see evidence where non exists that their favorite skater is the bees knees and the other guy, yuk.

You can tell her skate is on the ice because there is snow coming up. Are you blind?

You can tell what angle her skate was at by watching any of the 100 videos on youtube where this screen cap was taken from. The Super Slow Mo of this jump is played in the Euro broadcast (Where Robin Cousins was commenting). They are 1080p resolution. Stream it to your HDTV through a Roku/Xbox/PS/ChromeCast/whatever. That should help you if your eyes are that bad.

Sotnikova doesnt' really have that many fans on this forum, and I'm certainly not what I would consider a fan. The Olympics are over, I couldn't care less about her to be honest. I do care about the cloud of misinformation and the severe bias and double standard regarding the criticism levied at her, though. It's not fair. I care about fair criticisms. There are no free passes with me, not even for your "queen."

It's not that hard. Why are you filibustering.
 

gotoschool

Medalist
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Mar 5, 2014
Let's take a closer look at some of the PCS categories.

Skating Skills...
Here are the number of 9.5s (or better) received in the Sochi Free Skate

Sotnikova: 4
Kim: 3
Kostner: 1
Everyone else: 0

Does anyone on earth think Sotnikova has better skating skills than Kim or Kostner, or even anywhere near the same league as them? She had received in the 7s her entire career, but suddenly a majority of the judges felt her basic skating skills had increased overnight into the 9s and more judges viewed her basic skating skills as superior to Kim and Kostner's. That's why I don't buy the B.S. that one or two rogue judges influenced the results. To me, the SS component is one example where it's clear the fixing of the results was widespread throughout the ISU and the federations, from the technical panel to the judges. There were many, many people involved in fixing the outcome for Russia, and that's why I continue to insist that the shroud of suspicion falls on the entire ISU and its federaions.

Great comments that get at the systematic heart of the problem. It could be expanded to include even more skaters, but that would go beyond the scope of the thread.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com

He's right.

Yes, he is (although a few details are still left out there). So why are you saying that Yu-Na's second 3Lutz was underrotated? It's very clearly shown how 2.25 rotations in the air for a Lutz is acceptable, given that people frequently takeoff forwards on their toepick and it isn't heresy to do so. Yu-Na was fully in the air for at least 2.5 rotations on her 3Lutz. She comes down "shorter" in comparison to the direction of where the takeoff started, but she doesn't pre-rotate much at at all. She's doing a lot more air rotation at the start of the jump, so it's very understandable that there may be less at the end of the jump.

It's unfortunate that the discussion in the other thread was deleted, where I was going into more detail. Hopefully it gets restored so I don't have to repeat it all again.
 
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