Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

Eladola said:
But wait, If all you need to make level 4 in that aspect is 5 different turns in both directions, What does it matter if you do 5 or 8, If anything packing it well at 5 is more professional, Or did i misunderstand what you wrote ?

And didn't the OP say that Adelina didn't have enough turns ?

Adelina wasn't short in terms of the Number of Turns to qualify for Level 4, but she did 6 types of turns instead of 5.

Jaylee, obviously, the Sochi Tech Panel and ALL those in the field who understand, judge, choreograph, perform, etc. based on those very rules and didn't speak out didn't see it the same way as BoP does. :rolleye:

Mista Ekko · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
Adelina wasn't short in terms of the Number of Turns to qualify for Level 4, but she did 6 types of turns instead of 5.

So when the OP suggested she did 4 of them, With the Twizzle being questionable, We're officially recognising it as a wrong call ?

TMC · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
No, what about 10 turns in total, 5 CW + 5 CCW, but in 6 different types of turns?

Eh..... What?

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

Eladola said:
So when the OP suggested she did 4 of them, With the Twizzle being questionable, We're officially recognising it as a wrong call ?

OP is adamant that there must be >5 different turns, EACH of them must be performed in both directions, i.e. 5CW+5CCW = 10 turns. To some of us, the Tech Panel, judges, choreographers, etc., >5 means there can be 6 or more different turns, ALL of them performed in both directions, for example, 4CW+4(Same Type)CCW+1(Different Type)CW+1(Different Type)CCW = 10 turns but 4+2 Types = 6 Types in BOTH directions.

So there are 10 turns in total for both SS, but the latter showcases Greater Variety.

Math is hard!

Mista Ekko · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
OP is adamant that there must be >5 different turns, EACH of them must be performed in both directions, i.e. 5CW+5CCW = 10 turns. To some of us, the Tech Panel, judges, choreographers, etc., >5 means there can be 6 or more different turns, ALL of them performed in both directions, eg. 4CW+4CCW+1CW+1CCW = 10 turns but 4+2 types = 6 types in both direction.

Does Kim's SS answer both "interpretations" of criteria ?

Mafke · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
there can be 6 or more different turns, ALL of them performed in both directions, for example, 4CW+4(Same Type)CCW+1(Different Type)CW+1(Different Type)CCW = 10 turns but 4+2 Types = 6 Types in both direction.
So there are 10 turns in total for both SS, but the latter showcases Greater Variety.

I really don't think you understand the meaning of the world 'ALL' or you're just clinging to a losing argument out of.... I don't know (and don't want to).

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

Eladola said:
Does Kim's SS answer both "interpretations" of criteria ?

I have not scrutinized either SS in slow motion, so the caveat is that we're all taking BoP word at face. *If* Yuna's SS satisfied all the other criteria for Level 4 SS, and she did 5CW+5CCW, then yes, hers would also qualify for Level 4.

Unless I do all the counting myself, I would give the Sochi Tech Panel the benefit of doubt as this isn't something that you can gloss over, there are many other professionals out there dissecting both skaters' performances.

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

Mafke said:
I really don't think you understand the meaning of the world 'ALL' or you're just clinging to a losing argument out of.... I don't know (and don't want to).

Instead of offering a losing argument yourself (i.e. without any proof, just more insults and casting aspersions on *my* intentions), how about explaining WHY ALL of Adelina's turns were not performed in both directions under the scenario I delineated in the previous post?

In fact, the reverse is true - IF skaters are penalized for offering MORE Variety (within limitations of time and FINITE Number of Turns/Steps achievable) and are forced to REPEAT types of steps in the counter direction, the Complexity Rule contradicts itself, as it discourages Variety and forces Repetition of Types!!

Yet...notice that first and foremost, it sets a MINIMUM of VARIETY, i.e. MORE TYPES = HIGHER LEVEL

Fewer Types = Lower Level.

Doing fewer than 5 types of turns or 3 types of steps would immediately lower the level to 3.

The gist of the Rule is there, understood by everyone, but it's only when Adelina wins that there's this unreasonable scrutiny of every tiny possible "infraction" to call foul on the win. :rolleye:

kozure · Mar 15, 2014

Mathman said:
^

In this case the argument is, what part of the sentence does "all" attach to?

1. You must do 5 turns and 3 steps, all eight in both directions.

2. You must do 5 turns and 3 steps, all three in both directions.

Both are OK English, I guess. But 2 is awkward and unnatural. Sentence 1 is pretty clearly right, IMHO.

A scope ambiguity in "all" wouldn't keep Sotnikova's StSq as a Level 4. She only had 1 type of step that was performed both CW and CCW. Even if the scope of "all" were limited to the step types, Sotnikova didn't do 3 step types in both directions.

The proponents of this manufactured ambiguity require a more tortured interpretation of "all."

Instead of "all" in the universal quantifier sense of "for every member of this group," they want "all" in the rule to refer to the 5 turn types and 3 step types loosely and collectively. So that if some turn types are performed in one direction, and at least one other turn type is performed in the other direction; and (or?) if some step types are performed in one direction and at least one other step type is done in the other direction, then the requirement that "all" of them is performed in both directions is met. It might even be ok on this reading for all the steps and turns to go in the same direction, as long as at least one step or turn goes in the opposite direction.

Never mind that this is not how practicing members of the skating community, with clarification and training from the ISU, implement this rule, as both BoP and mskate93 have pointed out.

And never mind that reading the rule this way would make the difference between Lvl 3 and Lvl 4 just one additional type of step, and that only one step or turn has to differ in direction from that of the others.

And finally, never mind that reading the rule this way makes it doubly unclear why Kim didn't receive Lvl 4 in her LP, and why only Sotnikova received a Lvl 4 in the SP.

jenaj · Mar 15, 2014

The ridiculousness (is that a word?) of the rule, no matter how it is interpreted, is what comes through to me. It is like school figures again in its opacity, on steroids. Maybe there should just be a competition that judges whether skaters can do all the various turns and steps in both directions. Whatever, but free the free skate!

TMC · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
OP is adamant that there must be >5 different turns, EACH of them must be performed in both directions, i.e. 5CW+5CCW = 10 turns. To some of us, the Tech Panel, judges, choreographers, etc., >5 means there can be 6 or more different turns, ALL of them performed in both directions, for example, 4CW+4(Same Type)CCW+1(Different Type)CW+1(Different Type)CCW = 10 turns but 4+2 Types = 6 Types in BOTH directions.

So there are 10 turns in total for both SS, but the latter showcases Greater Variety.

Math is hard!

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here... Of course there can be 6 different turns in a program (no more though as there are only 6 different "legal" turns). And there can be a total of howevermany turns in one program, but for level 4, you must include 5 different types of turns. So pick which 5 out of 6 you want to do, do them all at least once in both directions, and after that you can step away to your heart's content.

TMC · Mar 15, 2014

"Definition of Turns and Steps

Different types of Turns: three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
Different types of Steps: toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, change of edge, cross rolls
Turns must be executed on one foot.
Steps must be executed on one foot whenever possible.
If a turn is “jumped ”, it is not counted as performed.

...
Variety

Must include at least 9 turns and 4 steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.

Complexity

Must include at least 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps all executed at least once in both directions. None of the types of turns and steps can be counted more than twice. “Both directions” refers to rotational direction not only for turns, but also for steps, e.g. mohawks, choctaws, chassés, change of edge. Skating forward and skating backward is not a change of rotational direction.

No minimum variety, only minimum variety, only simple variety, only variety

If a skater does not perform a minimum variety of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than Basic. If a skater performs only minimum variety of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than 1. If a skater performs only simple variety of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than 2. If a skater performs only variety (but not complexity) of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than 3."

From ISU Judging System Technical Panel Handbook
Source:

https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles.pdf

I can't even understand how this could be misunderstood?

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

jenaj said:
The ridiculousness (is that a word?) of the rule, no matter how it is interpreted, is what comes through to me. It is like school figures again in its opacity, on steroids. Maybe there should just be a competition that judges whether skaters can do all the various turns and steps in both directions. Whatever, but free the free skate!

To me, and many others like DMD, etc., the Complexity Rule is quite clear - it demands greater variety to merit higher levels of grading, no other skater has been scrutinized, quartered and torn apart to this degree in public by an obsessed posse since...oh, Mao Asada! :laugh:

The ridiculousness lies in the endless parsing and never ending fault-finding, more "controversies" "unearthed" and "uncovered" to drive a particular agenda, i.e. to discredit Adelina's win. Notice that Asada has now been forgiven and almost forgotten, if not tenderly remembered, but the very same people who used to rend her performances apart!

TMC · Mar 15, 2014

qwertyskates said:
To me, and many others like DMD, etc., the Complexity Rule is quite clear - it demands greater variety to merit higher levels of grading, no other skater has been scrutinized, quartered and torn apart to this degree in public by an obsessed posse since...oh, Mao Asada! The ridiculousness lies in the endless parsing and never ending fault-finding, more "controversies" "unearthed" and "uncovered" to drive a particular agenda, i.e. to discredit Adelina's win. Notice that Asada has now been forgiven and almost forgotten, if not tenderly remembered, but the very same people who used to rend her performances apart!

2. If a skater performs only variety (but not complexity) of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than 3.

Mafke · Mar 15, 2014

TMC said:
I can't even understand how this could be misunderstood?

On purpose.

jand0387 · Mar 15, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
For those who do not know before we begin, here are the requirements for achieving a Level 4 step sequence in singles skating:

1.) 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps, all executed at least once in both directions.
2.) Rotations in both directions with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction.
3.) Use of upper body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern.
4.) Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns executed with a clear rhythm.

Here is every skate movement that Sotnikova made in the step sequence of her LP, listed in order of execution from start to finish:

1.) Three Turn, counterclockwise (x2)
2.) Curve with change of edge, clockwise
3.) Twizzle, clockwise
4). Toe Hop, counterlockwise
5.) Rocker, counterclockwise
6.) Change edge from inside to outside
7.) Three Turn, clockwise
8.) Twizzle, counterclockwise (barely makes it around and free foot comes down quickly)
9.) Curve with change of edge, clockwise
10.) Loop, clockwise
11.) Three Turn, clockwise
12.) Choctaw, counterclockwise
13.) Illusion turn, counterclockwise
14.) Toe Steps, clockwise
15.) Rocker, clockwise
16.) Counter, clockwise
17.) Bracket, counterclockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over with free foot coming down)
18.) Mohawk, counterclockwise
19.) Loop, counterclockwise
20.) Toe Hop, clockwise
21.) Chasse, clockwise
22.) Rocker, clockwise
23.) Rocker, counterclockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)
24.) Rocker, counterclockwise
25.) Chasse, clockwise (x3)
26.) Edge change from inside to outside
27.) Edge change from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice
28.) Rocker, clockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)
29.) Three Turn, clockwise

5 types of turns need to be executed in both directions. By my count Sotnikova only executed 4 types of turns in both directions - Three Turn, Rocker, Loop, and Twizzle (and this one is very questionable on the counterclockwise attempt).

3 types of steps need to be executed in both directions and I only see 1 type of step executed in both directions - Toe Hop.

Other people who are able to, analyze this step sequence with me and let's uncover the truth.

-----

See my post HERE that analyzes Yu-Na's footwork sequence, which is a Level 4.

BoP, would it be too much to ask for your analysis on Short program step sequence too? (Yuna, Adelina, Kostner etc...) So Sorry!

capcomeback · Mar 15, 2014

z

qwertyskates said:
In English or otherwise, as the Rule is about grading *Complexity*, it makes more sense that *greater* variety rather than less would merit the higher level grade in terms of complexity of moves. So Adelina's SS with 6 different turns in both directions is more complex than Yuna's SS with 5 different turns in both directions. This overall preference for Variety is clearly reflected in the strictly enforced Zayak Rule. Skaters are penalized for repetition and rewarded for variety. So in terms of consistency, Adelina's SS makes sense.

It has been disputed that some of Adelina's turns were in both directions. Additionally, regardless of the turns, she needed to complete her footwork sequences in a way that meets Level 4. This has been disputed too.

Mathman · Mar 15, 2014

A little bit off-topic, but hats off to posters like Blades of Passion and GKelly who are capable of this kind of analysis. :bow:

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 15, 2014

^this

qwertyskates · Mar 15, 2014

TMC said:
2. If a skater performs only variety (but not complexity) of steps and turns, the Level cannot be higher than 3.

How did Adelina fail in delivering Complexity? I have delineated a scenario when she would have performed turns and steps in BOTH directions. Sorry, I don't buy BoP's SINGULAR interpretation that in fact discourages Variety. That is his/hers alone, and NO ONE else out there has raised this issue, not even those who have criticized her performance.

Besides, unless I have sat there and played in slow motion and counted every step and turn, I will not readily accept a third person's account when hundreds, if not thousands (most of them in the figure skating profession and including journalists and specialists) have scrutinized the same performances and HAVE NOT raised this issue in any manner.

Yes, why don't you call or file BoP's opinion to the ISU about Adelina's Step Sequence? I'm curious how they would reply to this!

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

qwertyskates

Mista Ekko

TMC

qwertyskates

Mista Ekko

Mafke

qwertyskates

qwertyskates

kozure

jenaj

TMC

TMC

qwertyskates

TMC

Mafke

jand0387

capcomeback

Mathman

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

qwertyskates

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