Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

jennyanydots · Mar 20, 2014

bebevia said:
People, this is why we need an artistic figure skating. We need more shows. And we don't have the time and money, sadly. Also, if I had the money and superhuman being, I would love to choreograph a program that features 110 jumps within 5 minutes, arranged in a pleasantly artistic way.

Getting further off topic but how about making solo ice dance an ISU event? The jumping beans can jump as they please and the skaters skate. Those who are good at both can do both events. Also, didn't the ISU just shoot down a proposal to have an artistic figure skating championship?

bebevia · Mar 20, 2014

jennyanydots said:
Getting further off topic but how about making solo ice dance an ISU event? The jumping beans can jump as they please and the skaters skate. Those who are good at both can do both events. Also, didn't the ISU just shoot down a proposal to have an artistic figure skating championship?

That's what I always say! ...And get shut out every time... :eek:

hwell: Realistically, making it an ISU thing would be impossible. We hardly have the Synchro as part of Worlds and Olympics, not to mention the training environment is relatively inaccessible worldwide (tropical!) and costly to gain enough popularity.

However, if skaters really wanted, I remember that there's something like a dance Olympics. Teaming up with World Dancesports Federation would be an option, since they have international events and dance sports is similar to artistic skating in many aspects. Ballet is too big to tie into minority sport organizations. Just wait for my 9th lottery win; I'm waiting for my first so far.

gkelly · Mar 20, 2014

Yes, I would love to see solo ice dance as a championship event. It does exist nationally in Britain, the US, and I think some other countries. If it succeeds, maybe there will be international competitions within our lifetimes.

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

bebevia said:
4. Jump layouts also affect choreography because they are part of it. An unbalanced program means an ugly choreography and presentation.

Mmm

I think "unbalanced" means "out of proportion", which, if we're talking about jump layout, has more to do with composition (the framework of the program) than choreography (the substance of the program) or presentation (the skater's performance of the routine). I think it's possible to have an unbalanced/disproportionate program (backloaded jump layout, facing one side of the audience too much, not utilizing the entire surface = all structural problems etc) and still have decent choreography (how your arm and leg movements convey the mood and meaning in the music), and decent presentation (performing the choreography in time with the music, facial expression and projection, etc.).

If backloading jumps actually is better for a certain choreography, then go for it!

Agree :yes:

***ETA - I know before I was onboard with even distribution of elements according to the clock (so that nothing is backloaded or frontloaded), but bebe has a point that 'balance' (which I still say is structural/compositional) is really dictated by the music, not the clock. For a composition to be balanced, the layout must not only fulfill spacial requirements (ice-coverage, making patterns, 360 perspective) but musical requirements as well (arrangement of technical elements according to the type of movement that the music calls for). The clock is more like a boundary. It's not the proper tool to measure artistic and spatial balance.

TMC · Mar 20, 2014

"According to Tim Gerber’s analysis – reviewed by two other ISU-certified technical specialists – the level calls for the step sequence of Adelina Sotnikova and Yuna Kim (in the free program) were both wrong (the Russian received a Level 4 and the South Korean, a Level 3, when, in fact, it should have been completely opposite)"

http://www.insideskating.net/2014/0...-people-deserve-to-know-if-a-mistake-was-made

Still awaiting reply from ISU, but here's another piece of proof...

gmyers · Mar 20, 2014

TMC said:
"According to Tim Gerber’s analysis – reviewed by two other ISU-certified technical specialists – the level calls for the step sequence of Adelina Sotnikova and Yuna Kim (in the free program) were both wrong (the Russian received a Level 4 and the South Korean, a Level 3, when, in fact, it should have been completely opposite)"

http://www.insideskating.net/2014/0...-people-deserve-to-know-if-a-mistake-was-made

Still awaiting reply from ISU, but here's another piece of proof...

This is not proof! Do you know what opinion is?

pangtongfan · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
This is not proof! Do you know what opinion is?

An extensive technical breakdown with reasoning an analysis, and constant reference to the ISU's own stated rules on how to score, is as close to proof as you will get in figure skating.

gmyers · Mar 20, 2014

pangtongfan said:
An extensive technical breakdown with reasoning an analysis, and constant reference to the ISU's own stated rules on how to score, is as close to proof as you will get in figure skating.

This is not proof. It's opinion based on interpretion of rules. To get sotnikovas gold revoked and given to Yuna will need absolute proof that decisions were made that were knowingly wrong.

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

Given the huge interest the ladies’ event in Sochi still holds a month after its conclusion and given the legitimate questions raised in the letter, we asked for Mr. Gerber’s permission to share the document to a wider audience. Here it is, in its entirety, exactly as it was sent to all the figure skating office holders within the ISU:

“Hello my figure skating associates,

We need to talk about how poorly the tech panel did their job at the Sochi Olympics. For the moment let us center the discussion around the Ladies’ event, specifically the calls made for the top 2 skaters.

The first issue I want to talk about are how the step sequence levels were called for Adelina Sotnikova and Yu-Na Kim – Sotnikova received a Level 4 and Yu-Na received a Level 3. However, all the analysis that I have done, and other experts have done, shows that these level calls were wrong. Sotnikova should have only received a Level 3 and Yu-Na should have received a Level 4. You can find full analysis, posted for the public to see, here – http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...lyzing-Sotnikova-and-Kim-s-footwork-in-the-FS

BoP!

pangtongfan · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
This is not proof. It's opinion based on interpretion of rules. To get sotnikovas gold revoked and given to Yuna will need absolute proof that decisions were made that were knowingly wrong.

LOL what are you talking about. Nobody thinks Sotnikova's fraudelent gold medal will ever be revoked. Everyone is aware that will stand in its forever diminished state. What people want is an investigation into the entire Sochi judging, not just the ladies, for the betterment of the sport moving forward.

gmyers · Mar 20, 2014

pangtongfan said:
LOL what are you talking about. Nobody thinks Sotnikova's fraudelent gold medal will ever be revoked. Everyone is aware that will stand in its forever diminished state. What people want is an investigation into the entire Sochi judging, not just the ladies, for the betterment of the sport moving forward.

If its proven to be fraudulent of course it will be revoked.

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
If its proven to be fraudulent of course it will be revoked.

I think the ISU would have to conduct an investigation, right? (I don't think they ever will).

Or does the IOC conduct the investigation (since they hold the medals)?

gmyers · Mar 20, 2014

I♥Yuna;890179 said:
I think the ISU would have to conduct an investigation, right? (I don't think they ever will).

Or does the IOC conduct the investigation (since they hold the medals)?

If every country but Russia is in strident opposition to sotnikovas win maybe there's an investigation already going on! And the end result will be either a disqualification of sotnikova and reordering of medals or just a dq of sotnikova

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
If every country but Russia is in strident opposition to sotnikovas win maybe there's an investigation already going on! And the end result will be either a disqualification of sotnikova and reordering of medals or just a dq of sotnikova

They can't do that, can they do that??!?!

I'm sorry, but disqualifying Adelina is completely wrong unless they can prove that she played some active role in the whole thing.

Also, do you know that the ISU can just reorder the medals without any input or permission from the IOC? (I'm pretty sure the IOC has to be involved in any changes to the Olympic standings...)

gkelly · Mar 20, 2014

Why would Sotnikova be disqualified if she didn't break any rules?

At most, if it were proven that some of the officials broke rules, either the results of the entire event would be voided, or results could be recalculated and medals redistributed -- probably the same top 3 in a different order. Maybe duplicate gold medals.

Or, most likely, the results would stand but any officials proven to have cheated would be suspended or permanently banned.

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

gkelly said:
Or, most likely, the results would stand but any officials proven to have cheated would be suspended or permanently banned.

That's what it should be

skatedreamer · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
If every country but Russia is in strident opposition to sotnikovas win maybe there's an investigation already going on! And the end result will be either a disqualification of sotnikova and reordering of medals or just a dq of sotnikova

Unless Sotnikova herself was actively involved in manipulating or fixing the scores, or in some other type of fraud related to the judging, it seems unlikely that she would be DQ'd. Most people agree that she performed well enough to be on the podium -- it's just the color of the medal that's in question.

capcomeback · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
If its proven to be fraudulent of course it will be revoked.

No, because the medal was awarded to her and to the best of our knowledge, SHE did not cheat to get it. The question is: Did others cheated on her behalf?

TMC · Mar 20, 2014

gmyers said:
This is not proof. It's opinion based on interpretion of rules. To get sotnikovas gold revoked and given to Yuna will need absolute proof that decisions were made that were knowingly wrong.

At this point, I don't give a flying rat's a$$ about who gets what medal. I don't even want to think about the skaters. I want to think about what actually happened on the ice that night, how the scores reflected that, and why. And how to make sure something like this does not happen again.

ILuvYuna · Mar 20, 2014

TMC said:
At this point, I don't give a flying rat's a$$ about who gets what medal. I don't even want to think about the skaters. I want to think about what actually happened on the ice that night, how the scores reflected that, and why. And how to make sure something like this does not happen again.

That's where I'm at, too. Even if they do investigate, handout punishments, and re-order medals, I hope all of the same reputable people who spoke out publicly (all of the veteran skaters, commentators, sports journalists, etc) continue to speak about it, and put pressure on them to make changes to the judging system (at the very least, no more anonymity).

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

jennyanydots

bebevia

gkelly

ILuvYuna

TMC

gmyers

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

gmyers

ILuvYuna

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

gmyers

ILuvYuna

gmyers

ILuvYuna

gkelly

ILuvYuna

skatedreamer

capcomeback

TMC

ILuvYuna

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