Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 9, 2014

Snow63 said:
Why the hell do you think OGM in ladies FS event was the most important thing for us, the russians, after OGM in hockey? Who told you that? Putin, russians? Or is it just your imagination? I think it's not even funny. I mean, FS is popular in Russia, but it's not THAT popular. Most of the people could not care less about winner of the event. In fact, they have already forgot who the winner was. And it sure as hell wasn't 'the crown jewel' for the russians.

I would disagree in 1 particular aspect: Lipnitskaia case is different. I bet there will be no easy tickets for Rostelecom Cup this fall should Yulia sign up. It is so strange to read here things like "junior skating". People were literally crying watching her skate. I had eyes full of tears - then tell me about choreography and interpretations... Our neighbour in Sochi dismissed the Olympics totally (local Sochi people hated the event as it brought so many inconveniencies). But when she found out I had extra tickets she begged to get to "see Yulia". But again, it started only in Sochi. May be it is just "mysterious Russian soul".

Snow63 · Apr 9, 2014

[email protected] said:
I would disagree in 1 particular aspect: Lipnitskaia case is different. I bet there will be no easy tickets for Rostelecom Cup this fall should Yulia sign up. It is so strange to read here things like "junior skating". People were literally crying watching her skate. I had eyes full of tears - then tell me about choreography and interpretations... Our neighbour in Sochi dismissed the Olympics totally (local Sochi people hated the event as it brought so many inconveniencies). But when she found out I had extra tickets she begged to get to "see Yulia". But again, it started only in Sochi. May be it is just "misterious Russian soul".

I don't know really if it was just one-time case or not. Russians loved Lipnitskaia in Sochi (more than Sotnikova, in fact), but I don't think it will be the same next season. In my expirience, there's FS boom in Russia every four years (after SLS, Torino, Vanc and now after Sochi). And heroes are different every time, but outcome is always the same. Heroes are forgotten next year (at least by most people, not FS fans). And Rostelekom cup always have easy tickets :biggrin:

But we'll see. I really hope you're right.

qwertyskates · Apr 9, 2014

jenm said:
@qwertyskates

You know one thing that would quite end this argument is if someone or you can make a stsq analysis for Adelina like BoP did so people can see whether she really fulfilled the required elements for a level 4 in both SP and FS or just in SP. Just a suggestion.

With "first time posters" popping up and jumping into the deep right from the get go, I honestly find it hilarious. :laugh:

I am not interested in ending the argument, but in pointing out that there are other features that must be met in order to attain Level 4, not just these steps described by BoP. People are making these sites that count Yuna's number of turns and steps and then declaring Yuna was cheated of Level 4!

There is a widespread misconception now that if #1 Complexity (ie. this discussion thread) is met, Yuna's stsq = Level 4, when in fact #2,#3,#4 must also be met.

I am the one who agrees with the Tech Panel's call, Adelina's looks like she fulfilled all four #, and Yuna's short of one and got Level 3. I therefore sleep very well at night. The onus is really on those who are up in arms wanting to prove that Tech Panel call was fraudulent.

So all of you who insist Yuna should receive Level 4 should now do a blow by blow comparison of Yuna vs Adelina for #2, #3 & #4, not just for #1.

jenm · Apr 9, 2014

qwertyskates said:
With "first time posters" popping up and jumping into the deep right from the get go, I honestly find it hilarious.

I am not interested in ending the argument, but in pointing out that there are other features that must be met in order to attain Level 4, not just these steps described by BoP. People are making these sites that count Yuna's number of turns and steps and then declaring Yuna was cheated of Level 4!

There is a widespread misconception now that if #1 Complexity (ie. this discussion thread) is met, Yuna's stsq = Level 4, when in fact #2,#3,#4 must also be met.

I am the one who agrees with the Tech Panel's call, Adelina's looks like she fulfilled all four #, and Yuna's short of one and got Level 3. I therefore sleep very well at night. The onus is really on those who are up in arms wanting to prove that Tech Panel call was fraudulent.

Sorry but I'm not a fist time poster here. I may not comment/post a lot but I READ. And as far as what I've read, there is not one analysis of Adelina's "level 4" step sequence apart from BoP (for the LP), or from any of her defenders. You keep on insisting she met #1-#4 requirements but can't provide evidence if she met the required steps and turns for #1? Why? You only claim something but can't provide enough evidence to support it. Really, replying to a person who has fixed idea on something is quite moot.

qwertyskates said:
So all of you who insist Yuna should receive Level 4 should now do a blow by blow comparison of Yuna vs Adelina for #2, #3 & #4, not just for #1.

People already worked on that in this thread. Not just BoP. I'm asking you or anyone to provide Adelina's list of steps and turns so we can all OBJECTIVELY compare and see if the calls were correct. If she did, then ok. If she didn't then that's another evidence of the incompetent/bias judging.

qwertyskates · Apr 9, 2014

jenm said:
Sorry but I'm not a fist time poster here. I may not comment/post a lot but I READ. And as far as what I've read, there is not one analysis of Adelina's "level 4" step sequence apart from BoP (for the LP), or from any of her defenders. You keep on insisting she met #1-#4 requirements but can't provide evidence if she met the required steps and turns for #1? Why? You only claim something but can't provide enough evidence to support it. Really, replying to a person who has fixed idea on something is quite moot.

People already worked on that in this thread. Not just BoP. I'm asking you or anyone to provide Adelina's list of steps and turns so we can all OBJECTIVELY compare and see if the calls were correct. If she did, then ok. If she didn't then that's another evidence of the incompetent/bias judging.

This is very funny. I agreed with Tech Panel, agreed with results, you disagreed, so you must prove how Tech Panel is wrong, and Yuna was robbed because you are making an allegation, and you should back it up or it's *libel*, i.e. accusation without proof. I don't have to prove anything to you. :laugh:

gkelly · Apr 9, 2014

qwertyskates said:
There is a widespread misconception now that if #1 Complexity (ie. this discussion thread) is met, Yuna's stsq = Level 4, when in fact #2,#3,#4 must also be met.

I am the one who agrees with the Tech Panel's call, Adelina's looks like she fulfilled all four #, and Yuna's short of one and got Level 3.

So which feature of #2, #3, #4 do you think Kim didn't/shouldn't have gotten credit for?

Are we talking about the short program or the freeskate? Or does the same reason apply to both step sequences?

JayW · Apr 9, 2014

Thanks to BoP' wonderful analysis, now I can watch both Adelina's and Kim's programs with much more clarity
BoP, you are awesome!

Nadya · Apr 9, 2014

gettinglow said:
Oh you mean Alla Shekhovtsova, wife of the general director of the Russian figure skating federation? She's definitely not Russian.

Anyway, thank you kozure for stating elegantly and accurately what was so awful about the figure skating judging in Sochi. It was a sham that only became REALLY obvious when the ladies stepped on to the ice and the scores started popping up. Outside of Russia, there are few and far between that actually think Adelina Sotnikova deserved that gold medal. I doubt that she will ever be able to win another medal without the cloud of bad memories related to her absurd scores from Sochi hanging over her head. Too bad, really, because she isn't a terrible skater by any means. Just not par with the best.

There was no Russian judge on the short program panel.

Ophelia · Apr 9, 2014

qwertyskates said:
This is very funny. I agreed with Tech Panel, agreed with results, you disagreed, so you must prove how Tech Panel is wrong, and Yuna was robbed because you are making an allegation, and you should back it up or it's *libel*, i.e. accusation without proof. I don't have to prove anything to you.

Way to chicken out. :rolleye:

jand0387 · Apr 9, 2014

four features

gkelly said:
So which feature of #2, #3, #4 do you think Kim didn't/shouldn't have gotten credit for?

Are we talking about the short program or the freeskate? Or does the same reason apply to both step sequences?

yes, Could BoP or someone qualified/knowledgeable clarify all of the four features - whether Adelina/Yuna fulfilled the requirements for all the features?

Blades of Passion · Apr 9, 2014

I already said in my analysis of Yu-Na's Long Program footwork that she achieved all 4 features. There has been a little debate about whether or not Yu-Na's arm movements affected her balance enough to count towards the level. I definitely believe they did.

Adelina missed the #1 feature for achieving level 4 and she missed the #4 feature as well. She didn't have enough turns and steps in both directions and she also failed to execute a necessary cluster of difficult turns. She did achieve the #1 feature for level 3, along with feature #2 and #3.

Nadya · Apr 9, 2014

kozure said:
Nevertheless the crown jewels for the Russians were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's, especially the ladies'. I think probably Mr. Putin's approval rating would have received a boost even if Russia had won OGM's in neither sport. But it sure would help to have the OGM's in either or both sports.

You're being ridiculous.

Russians do care about figure skating (although less so than hockey) but there is not, and there has never been an expectation that the ladies OGM would be Russian. Russia doesn't have a tradition of ladies OGM winners; the last time the Russian lady won a OGM in FS was never. We've had strong skaters, excellent skaters, yes, but gold medal winners, no. Pairs and men, OK. Ladies, nyet.

An average Russian wouldn't know Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya from a hole in the ground, or didn't before Sochi. Pluschenko, OK. These two, before the Olympics, no.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 9, 2014

Nadya said:
You're being ridiculous.

Russians do care about figure skating (although less so than hockey) but there is not, and there has never been an expectation that the ladies OGM would be Russian. Russia doesn't have a tradition of ladies OGM winners; the last time the Russian lady won a OGM in FS was never. We've had strong skaters, excellent skaters, yes, but gold medal winners, no. Pairs and men, OK. Ladies, nyet.

An average Russian wouldn't know Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya from a hole in the ground, or didn't before Sochi. Pluschenko, OK. These two, before the Olympics, no.

Which is why Eteri and Yulia were caught off guard by all the media attention. Youngest winner of Euros ever and hardly a peep.

kozure · Apr 9, 2014

Nadya said:
You're being ridiculous.

Russians do care about figure skating (although less so than hockey) but there is not, and there has never been an expectation that the ladies OGM would be Russian. Russia doesn't have a tradition of ladies OGM winners; the last time the Russian lady won a OGM in FS was never. We've had strong skaters, excellent skaters, yes, but gold medal winners, no. Pairs and men, OK. Ladies, nyet.

An average Russian wouldn't know Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya from a hole in the ground, or didn't before Sochi. Pluschenko, OK. These two, before the Olympics, no.

Fine, I was careless and ambiguous in my use of "Russians" in that sentence. I'm very aware that the ladies' was the one and only FS event in which the Russians had lacked a gold medal. I'll restate it then:

"Nevertheless the crown jewels for the average Russian were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's in general; but for the Russian FS fed, the ladies' OGM in particular, precisely because it was the one they had never won and most coveted." How's that? Better?

I was expecting you to rip into my speculative foray more substantively. Do you find it an otherwise plausible story?

Blades of Passion · Apr 9, 2014

kozure said:
Throw into this mix Mr. Cinquanta, a paragon of an apparatchik lording over his minor domain, and eager to please lords of greater domains.

kozure said:
I was expecting you to rip into my speculative foray more substantively. Do you find it an otherwise plausible story?

You should post more. This is quality!

Nadya · Apr 9, 2014

kozure said:
Fine, I was careless and ambiguous in my use of "Russians" in that sentence. I'm very aware that the ladies' was the one and only FS event in which the Russians had lacked a gold medal. I'll restate it then:

"Nevertheless the crown jewels for the average Russian were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's in general; but for the Russian FS fed, the ladies' OGM in particular, precisely because it was the one they had never won and most coveted." How's that? Better?

I was expecting you to rip into my speculative foray more substantively. Do you find it an otherwise plausible story?

I don't think there's much of a story there. FS is a subjective sport? OK. All judges and coaches advocate for their skaters? OK. Nothing new so far. Would Mr. Putin have been pleased with a high medal count? Sure, what president wouldn't be? To the extent that someone would go to the ridiculous lengths of conspiring to win a LADIES medal, of all things? When there are so many medals to be won otherwise? Nah. Putin honestly doesn't care.

I agree that Kim's record over the last four years did not exactly endear her to the judges. The bloom, so to speak, was off the rose; the holy ointment all rubbed off. The crest of lurve has subsided, the judges now wanted her to work for it like everyone else.

Nadya · Apr 9, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
You should post more. This is quality!

If that's the sort of writing you like, I recommend Harlequin products.

kozure · Apr 10, 2014

You're too kind, BoP. I'm afraid that, unlike you, I don't have much in the way of expertise to contribute here. I'm sure there are many current and previous lurkers like me who are grateful to you for the way you've laid-bare just how wrong the judging was at these OG's.

kozure · Apr 10, 2014

Nadya said:
If that's the sort of writing you like, I recommend Harlequin products.

Now that's more like it!

qwertyskates · Apr 10, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
I already said in my analysis of Yu-Na's Long Program footwork that she achieved all 4 features. There has been a little debate about whether or not Yu-Na's arm movements affected her balance enough to count towards the level. I definitely believe they did.

Adelina missed the #1 feature for achieving level 4 and she missed the #4 feature as well. She didn't have enough turns and steps in both directions and she also failed to execute a necessary cluster of difficult turns. She did achieve the #1 feature for level 3, along with feature #2 and #3.

Again, this is your opinion which you are free to express. However, your analysis is incomplete without *proving* that Yuna deserves Level 4 because she attains ALL FOUR FEATURES, when you have only proven ONE. The other THREE are simply your opinion. There are also qualities for #3, FULL upper body movement, and #4, difficult combinations that require a certain speed in execution that remain unanswered. This isn't the first time Yuna received Level 3, in fact, she received Level 3 for stsq and spins more often than Level 4. There has been little debate over all those other competitions when she received Level 3 because she won gold for them.

It is only responsible to highlight the fact that while the footwork for Complexity has been scrutinized in detail, i.e. Feature #1, the other THREE FEATURES have not been delved into with the same level of investigation. It is therefore irresponsible to conclude that Yuna's stsq Level 3 credit is wrong or a fraud based on only ONE FEATURE met, yet it has proliferated all over the internet that Yuna has met Level 4 based on evaluation of Feature #1 but was robbed by "Russian" Tech Panel.

I don't think I need to take this conversation further, but you should by all means go ahead and prove #2, #3 & #4 in detail. I'm sure Yuna fans on this forum would appreciate it.

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[email protected]

Medalist

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

qwertyskates

jenm

The Last One Degree

qwertyskates

gkelly

JayW

Nadya

Ophelia

jand0387

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Nadya

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

kozure

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Nadya

Nadya

kozure

kozure

qwertyskates

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