Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 66 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

Status
Not open for further replies.

sk8in

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Neither of them did any steps or skating movements movements directly preceding the solo double axel.

Kim

Sotnikova

Kim did hers as the next element after her choreo sequence (the 9 movements you refer to), which was scored as its own element, but there was a break before she went into the 2A, so it wouldn't add any positive bullet point to the jump. I don't think either of them should earn bullet points 1, 2, or 3.

Sotnikova does a nice mazurka off the landing of her 2A, step, three turn, spin. Kim just steps forward directly from the landing into the spin. I would say that both those transitions contribute somewhat to the intricacy criterion of the Transitions component, but wouldn't add to the GOE of the double axel. If anything, Sotnikova's might count as "good extension on landing / creative exit," which might account for the couple of +3s she earned for the jump.
Sorry, but this post is a load of crap. This is the COMPLETE set up to Adelina's 2A:
http://youtu.be/CrVL5tM926s?t=3m31s
If we're talking specifically the intricacy of Adelina's 2A jumping pass it is extremely disingenuous to cut her lengthy entrance. She goes straight from her 3S to the 2A with nothing but cross overs in between. This is the opposite if what the ISU considers balance and intricacy in figure skating programs. For that matter it is more difficult, not less to go directly into a spin after a jump, and unlike Adelina's spin, Yunas was timed with the music. Again Adelina doing one or two random pieces if footwork does not make her program good. She largely had a jump fest and sandwiched her foot work on either end of the program.
 

Ophelia

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 6, 2013
Yuna found a way to combine the wow of the jump with an equal wow in the landing and especially how consistently she could land it. There are others who can go that big but few who can do it with grace. :bow:

There are a few ladies that I think jump too high and as such lose flow out or fall too often. Elizaveta can launch like a missle but to me she goes maybe to high to be in control consistenly considering her stature. :confused2:

This thread is like a bouncy ball of topics. :laugh:

Yeeeeeeeees. Yuna's jumps are unmatched in their beauty. She ZOOMS into her jumps and and seems to accelerate going into it, unlike most skaters. Her jumps are the kind of jumps I want to see when I watch figure skating. The launch, the landing, the flow out all look effortless. Most other skaters decelerate when they're going into their jumps, take forever to launch, and seem to "hop" rather than jump. It's like watching a deflating balloon. Then some other skaters hurl themselves into jumps and land with the grace of a sack of potatoes.

As much as Carolina's jumps are technically as good, I always found them too slow.
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Speaking of Yuna's final 2A in her Adios program, I just find out that the revolution matched music magically, if you pay attention, you will find that the piano notes accelerated right during her 2A revolution in the air. It could be an intentional choreographically touch or merely an coincidence
Yuna's Adios program has subtly/nuance like this throughout, those attention to music details, those effort to match tech element with music, perhaps do not tick every COP bullet, but, made her Adios a performance of ages ...
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
At this point we're simply repeating stuff because some posters will simply ignore the video evidence presented by other posters in this thread and repeat their erroneous claims. I've already posted a side-by-side animated gif of Adelina's and Yuna's entrances to their stand-alone 2A's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/120676593@N05/13334274763/sizes/o/in/photostream/

It's pretty obvious that Adelina took a longer prep time going into her double axel (just compare when they lift their left foot up), and both were in the air for the same amount of time implying they had the same height. So much for the "more complex entrances and superior height."

It's also telling how people say that previous scores don't matter (to discount the discrepancies in how this competition was scored relative to past competitions) and yet say the scores were justified because supposedly Yuna held back and didn't do the best she's capable of and Adelina had the best skate of her life...which are both implicit comparisons to their previous performances.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Speaking of Yuna's final 2A in her Adios program, I just find out that the revolution matched music magically, if you pay attention, you will find that the piano notes accelerated right during her 2A revolution in the air. It could be an intentional choreographically touch or merely an coincidence

That could be a reason for awarding the "Element matched to the musical structure" bullet point and may have made the difference between +1 and +2 for those judges who gave her +2 on that jump.

At this point we're simply repeating stuff because some posters will simply ignore the video evidence presented by other posters in this thread and repeat their erroneous claims. I've already posted a side-by-side animated gif of Adelina's and Yuna's entrances to their stand-alone 2A's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/120676593@N05/13334274763/sizes/o/in/photostream/

With animated gifs that have obviously been manipulated to slow down the action, I have no way of knowing whether the person who did the manipulation slowed both clips down to the same degree. Since most fans who make these clips have obvious agendas, I wouldn't put it past them to falsify evidence on purpose.

It's pretty obvious that Adelina took a longer prep time going into her double axel

Yes, that's clear enough in real time. As I said, I don't think either of these double axels deserved extra credit for difficult/unexpected entries . . . or penalty for excessive preparation/telegraphing. They're both pretty average axel entries. Kim's is a little quicker.

On other jumps in the programs (most notably the lutz combinations), Kim has more setup and Sotnikova has preceding steps.

Each jump has to be evaluated on its own merits for its own GOE, regardless of what the skater did on other jumps in this program or in other performances.

An overall impression of "long setups" or "short setups" for a whole program in general might affect program components.
 

Ophelia

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 6, 2013
It's also telling how people say that previous scores don't matter (to discount the discrepancies in how this competition was scored relative to past competitions) and yet say the scores were justified because supposedly Yuna held back and didn't do the best she's capable of and Adelina had the best skate of her life...which are both implicit comparisons to their previous performances.
This.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
It's also telling how people say that previous scores don't matter (to discount the discrepancies in how this competition was scored relative to past competitions) and yet say the scores were justified because supposedly Yuna held back and didn't do the best she's capable of and Adelina had the best skate of her life...which are both implicit comparisons to their previous performances.

The judges in Sochi were scoring Yuna relative to Adelina on that night, so to that extent the previous scores shouldn't factor in because they are judged against each other, here and now. The closeness of the scores is explained by the fact that Yuna didn't skate her best and Adelina did; had Yuna skated her best her score would have been higher, probably closer to what she got at Worlds last year. Yuna should not win gold solely on the strength of past performances.
 

flyushka

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
At this point we're simply repeating stuff because some posters will simply ignore the video evidence presented by other posters in this thread and repeat their erroneous claims. I've already posted a side-by-side animated gif of Adelina's and Yuna's entrances to their stand-alone 2A's here:

meh... or maybe they just see the video "evidence" as grasping at straws. The judges aren't sitting around analyzing animated gifs; they go with their gut, give a score and move on. I doubt they gave a moment's thought about which of these two skaters held their entrance edge into the 2A for a half second longer; it'd only be an issue if one was really excessively long and disruptive or, on the flip side, if one was really out of nowhere and had a remarkable difficult entrance. These were both normal, run of the mill 2A entrances. Shrug.

It's also telling how people say that previous scores don't matter (to discount the discrepancies in how this competition was scored relative to past competitions) and yet say the scores were justified because supposedly Yuna held back and didn't do the best she's capable of and Adelina had the best skate of her life...which are both implicit comparisons to their previous performances.

:confused: One statement doesn't logically have anything to do with the other. One the one hand, people who give those statements are saying Yuna Kim shouldn't automatically win a competition just because she's Yuna Kim. And other skaters in the competition shouldn't be barred from winning or getting a high score because they received a certain score a year ago, two weeks ago, or whatever. In other words, what happens on that night should be the sole determinant (as I think most of us can agree, no?). But when they say it wasn't quite Yuna's best and it was the skate of Adelina's life, that statement in itself doesn't say anything about who was better than the other. If some novice skater had the skate of her life, she wouldn't deserve to beat Yuna just because it was her best ever while Yuna didn't do her best. There were probably some lower-ranked skaters in this same competition who had the skate of their lives too, but they didn't deserve to win. But what can be inferred from that statement when taken in context is that the poster generally sees Yuna as a superior skater to Adelina, but on this night Adelina matched or surpassed Yuna's effort.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
The judges in Sochi were scoring Yuna relative to Adelina on that night, so to that extent the previous scores shouldn't factor in because they are judged against each other, here and now. The closeness of the scores is explained by the fact that Yuna didn't skate her best and Adelina did; had Yuna skated her best her score would have been higher, probably closer to what she got at Worlds last year. Yuna should not win gold solely on the strength of past performances.

You are hilarious. Had the judge in Sochi been scoring Yuna relative to Adelina; she, Mao, Carolina should all have scored over 155+ Adelina should have been 4th at best during the FS given the poor choreography, musicality, incoherent creative content/presentation displayed. Even more critically incorrect technical marks on her flutz, UR 3T, levels and wildly inflated GOEs and PCS @ "judge's discretion" (not so discreetly :sarcasm:). Instead everyone in the entire competition has been graded according to who's not of Russian nationality, not just among the ladies. Its is an absolute disgrace because it happened at the Olympics! The biggest event every four years where it is suppose not to happen under the watchful eyes of world wide audience where the sport should be celebrated.

Sochi certainly ear marked a new milestone to the meaning of "spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play". :rolleye: Speedy should be so embarrassed for such mismanagement of the sport. One can argue was deliberate, since they have devised enough rules/regulation to protect themselves from being challenged.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
You are hilarious. Had the judge in Sochi been scoring Yuna relative to Adelina; she, Mao, Carolina should all have scored over 155+ Adelina should have been 4th at best during the FS given the poor choreography, musicality, incoherent creative content/presentation displayed. Even more critically incorrect technical marks on her flutz, levels and wildly inflated GOEs and PCS @ "judge's discretion" (not so discreetly :sarcasm:). Instead everyone in the entire competition has been graded according who's not of Russian nationality, not just among the ladies. Its is an absolute disgrace because it happened at the Olympics! The biggest event where it is suppose not to happen under the watchful eyes of world wide audience where the sport should be celebrated.

Sochi certainly ear marked a new milestone to the meaning of "spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play". :rolleye: Speedy should be so embarrassed for such mismanagement of the sport.

Very OTT portrayal.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
You are hilarious. Had the judge in Sochi been scoring Yuna relative to Adelina; she, Mao, Carolina should all have scored over 155+ Adelina should have been 4th at best during the FS given the poor choreography, musicality, incoherent creative content/presentation displayed. Even more critically incorrect technical marks on her flutz, UR 3T, levels and wildly inflated GOEs and PCS @ "judge's discretion" (not so discreetly :sarcasm:).

It's amazing how you overlook all of Adelina's great qualities. Of those four, she is by far the best spinner, has the highest jumps, has the most difficult jump entrances overall, has the most transitions, and actually skates faster than Mao. Performance-wise, she had the most energy, skated less cautiously than Yuna and Caro. Whether you "get" her choreography is personal preference, but it was well-paced and some of the jumps were perfectly timed to the music (such as the 2A-3T). When Michelle Kwan says Adelina won hand-down, fair-and-square, over her friend Yuna, Sotnikova deserved to win.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
It's amazing how you overlook all of Adelina's great qualities. Of those four, she is by far the best spinner, has the highest jumps, has the most difficult jump entrances overall, has the most transitions, and actually skates faster than Mao. Performance-wise, she had the most energy, skated less cautiously than Yuna and Caro. Whether you "get" her choreography is personal preference, but it was well-paced and some of the jumps were perfectly timed to the music (such as the 2A-3T). When Michelle Kwan says Adelina won hand-down, fair-and-square, over her friend Yuna, Sotnikova deserved to win.
Kwan said so? Really? I didn't follow that. :confused:
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
It's amazing how you overlook all of Adelina's great qualities. Of those four, she is by far the best spinner, has the highest jumps, has the most difficult jump entrances overall, has the most transitions, and actually skates faster than Mao. Performance-wise, she had the most energy, skated less cautiously than Yuna and Caro. Whether you "get" her choreography is personal preference, but it was well-paced and some of the jumps were perfectly timed to the music (such as the 2A-3T). When Michelle Kwan says Adelina won hand-down, fair-and-square, over her friend Yuna, Sotnikova deserved to win.

I did not overlook over Adelina's good qualities. Despite everything you have said, she should still have ranked no higher than 4th in the FS and should be no where near the top 3 world champions at their career bests. You have also conveniently overlooked all of of Adelina's errors and technical short comings which were all completely ignored by the technical panel, that were self evident according to her own history and further cross examination upon replay. She was the default winner by a bipartisan judging panel who is gunning for a Russian Champion largely due to the fact Yulia did not deliver.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
drivingmissdaisy has long been on my ignore list but I appreciate in this case her being quoted as comedy galore in her insane Sotnikova delusion reaches new heights. First off the judges did not score Kim and Sotnikova "closely" as missdaisy's fantasy world has apparently had her remember. Sotnikova was scored over 6 points higher in the free skate and won the competition by nearly 6 points. So doing a psycho analysis and concluding from it they deserved to be scored "closely" wouldnt even be in line whatsoever with the scores that were actually given out.

Secondly Kwan never stated Sotnikova won the gold medal "hands down". Another fantasy. The most she said was her win could be acceptable based on the higher dififculty of her program but that is a far cry from she was the "hands down" winner. Kwan and Kim are also not neccessarily "good friends". Just being coached by her brother in law for a few months and inviting her to a few shows (where she invites dozens of others) does not make them BFFs.

Then the over the top excessive drivel of how incredible and superior to all others Sotnikova's skating is in everyway, ROTFL!!! I am increasingly convinced drivingmissdaisy is either Adelina's mom or Tarasova as those are the only two who can actually reach this posters's level of lovesick devotion and delusion to her. Speaking of delusion most of all everytime I see this poster quoted she insists Adelina's win is not "at all controversial" :laugh: :rolleye: yet she has seemingly posted 100 times per day and literally devoted her entire life since then trying to brainwash everyone that somehow this is true. Why a need for this if that were so. :sarcasm:
 

flyushka

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Secondly Kwan never stated Sotnikova won the gold medal "hands down". Another fantasy. The most she said was her win could be acceptable based on the higher dififculty of her program but that is a far cry from she was the "hands down" winner. Kwan and Kim are also not neccessarily "good friends". Just being coached by her brother in law for a few months and inviting her to a few shows (where she invites dozens of others) does not make them BFFs.

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/story/judging-controversy-no-surprise-in-figure-skating-022114

I spoke with Kwan, who's been working the figure skating beat with me for Fox Sports this month, and her response was eerily similar to Kim's. "Under the scoring system, hands down, Adelina won," the two-time Olympian said. "However, I personally enjoyed Yuna Kim's performance more. She had a combination of artistry and athleticism. But Adelina jam-packed her program with a triple-triple combination and a double axel triple toe that Yuna didn't have. When you compare them like that under the scoring system, Adelina wins."

I do remember the phrase "fair and square" used by Michelle at some point too. Now I don't think she cares for the scoring system much and probably would have rather seen Yuna as the 2014 OGM, but she did say it. :confused2:
 

Figure

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
How on earth the result is not controversial is beyond me.

I’m still having difficulty to figure it out.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Sorry, but this post is a load of crap. This is the COMPLETE set up to Adelina's 2A:
http://youtu.be/CrVL5tM926s?t=3m31s
If we're talking specifically the intricacy of Adelina's 2A jumping pass it is extremely disingenuous to cut her lengthy entrance. She goes straight from her 3S to the 2A with nothing but cross overs in between. This is the opposite if what the ISU considers balance and intricacy in figure skating programs. For that matter it is more difficult, not less to go directly into a spin after a jump, and unlike Adelina's spin, Yunas was timed with the music. Again Adelina doing one or two random pieces if footwork does not make her program good. She largely had a jump fest and sandwiched her foot work on either end of the program.

I think so, too. Maybe, according to some posters, the elements before and after the skater's 2A might not count for the GoE but they should be reflected in the PCS. Unfortunately, they weren't and that really is puzzling. Yuna's transitions were not only smooth but were perfectly matched to the music. Even the 3-turn before her 3F hit every note. Her last spin was very musical. And someone pointed out that her 2A was, too. And looking at it now, I also realize that so that should have counted for another +GoE.

It really puzzles me that some posters say Yuna's jumps are unmatched because of the quality of nearly everything on it (height, distance, flow, musicality, speed, air position, intricacy and all) but then say Adelina should have edged her out when she had not only mistakes but lesser quality on a several things. I don't get it really.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
At this point we're simply repeating stuff because some posters will simply ignore the video evidence presented by other posters in this thread and repeat their erroneous claims. I've already posted a side-by-side animated gif of Adelina's and Yuna's entrances to their stand-alone 2A's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/120676593@N05/13334274763/sizes/o/in/photostream/

It's pretty obvious that Adelina took a longer prep time going into her double axel (just compare when they lift their left foot up), and both were in the air for the same amount of time implying they had the same height. So much for the "more complex entrances and superior height."

It's also telling how people say that previous scores don't matter (to discount the discrepancies in how this competition was scored relative to past competitions) and yet say the scores were justified because supposedly Yuna held back and didn't do the best she's capable of and Adelina had the best skate of her life...which are both implicit comparisons to their previous performances.

Yes, I think so too. Actually, Adelina did nothing but several crossovers and a few hand flailing in between her 3S and 2A and she had a longer prep time for the 2A while Yuna did only 1 crossover into her 2A and immediately preceded it with her final spin that perfectly matched the music. Yuna clearly met 4 bullets, even 5 if we count musicality. Four judges gave her +1, I don't get this. All the others gave her +2s (which I think was correct). It wasn't a +3 jump to be fair and no judge gave her that. Even I won't. After the someone pointed out the musicality of her 2A, here's my final assessment:

4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Adelina, on the other hand, got 6 +2s, 2 +3s and a +1. I don't see how she could get a +3 because her jump only fulfilled bullets for a +2 [at best]. The +1 might be because that 1 judge did not count the "effortless" bullet because of her long time prep and to be honest, her jumps looked muscled/labored. It was not musical as well.

The judging block seems more believable to me now. Some judges consistently awarded Adelina high GOEs but held down Yuna's unfairly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top