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- Jan 11, 2014
amazing! you're still about to use your microscope?
Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS
- Thread starter Blades of Passion
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- Jan 28, 2014
edited: I stand corrected. I was exaggerating on that one a bit. I honestly saw 2 cross overs but you guys pointed out that there was only 1. But my point is not the crossovers. I really don't get why people fuss about crossovers. What I was trying to say is that it puzzles me how Adelina's 2A with "unknown" steps (like you say) that weren't even clear enough to be recognized as steps would be more appreciated than a 2A with more intricate, faster in speed and transition AND clearer steps/movements and was followed immediately by a difficult element (spin)?
*underlined the scores that confuse me
Yuna: 0.79 (GOEs 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2)
Adelina: 1.07 (GOEs: 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 1)
IMO, they should have gotten the same amount of GOEs or Yuna should have scored higher based on more difficult entry (intricacy) and exit (immediately to a combination spin). Why would Yuna get +1s? and Why would Adelina get +3s? IMO, both their 2As were in +2 GoE range.
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- Jan 28, 2014
Taking the crossover/entry issue aside, Yuna did fulfill 4-5 bullets for +2 GOE:
4) good height and distance (yes)
5) good extension on landing / creative exit (yes)
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences (yes)
7) effortless throughout (yes)
8) element matched to the musical structure (i guess)
And there wasn't any mistake that could have caused her deduction. I don't see any reason behind the 4 +1s besides the judges being overly stringy to her but overly generous to the other.
Thanks for acknowledging that.
The problem with exaggerating, especially in the direction of downplaying or even insulting the content of skater you think was overmarked and/or overpraising the skater you think was undermarked heats up the emotion in the thread without shedding light -- it's a good way to pick a fight, a bad way to ask and answer honest questions.
We made a fuss about crossovers because you made an inaccurate statement about crossovers. I just wanted to set the record straight.
My answer, based on my understanding of the rules, is that neither of these skaters did any transitions in or out of of their solo double axels that would contribute either positively or negatively to the GOE of that element. They both held a back outside edge for a couple of seconds and stepped up into the jump in a normal plain vanilla axel entrance, and neither of them held the landing for a long time or in an enhanced position or did anything difficult on or coming out of the landing edge.
Kim stepped forward right into a spin. Normal landing to normal spin entry, but the fact that there was nothing in between adds to the overall Intricacy of the program for the Transitions component, not for the GOE.
Sotnikova did a mazurka jump. Not extremely difficult, but adds a small bit of extra technical content and reasonably well done. I would also say it adds to the Variety, except for the fact that she did the same thing on the landing of the preceding 3S.
The connections from one element to the next that you point out would be a few of many over the whole program that would figure in to the Transitions component. Just in these few seconds before and after the double axels, Kim probably deserves more credit for Intricacy.
But if we chose different small segments of the programs, Sotnikova might come out ahead on Transitions. If we were really looking at the program components rather than GOEs, we'd need to look at the whole program, not isolated clips.
I agree that the jumps themselves were pretty similar and would expect either +1 for both or +2 GOE for both.
Remember the order of the scores is scrambled from one skater to the next, so we don't know whether two judges gave Sotnikova 2 points more for that element and only one gave her 1 point higher, or whether five judges gave her 1 point higher than Kim, or some other configuration.
I can't explain why any judge would honestly give Sotnikova +3 and Kim +1.
My guess about why some judges scored S +3 vs. K +2, or S +2 vs. K +1, would be that Sotnikova's double axel looked higher/faster/covering more ice to them in real time than Kim's, enough to give that bullet point to S and not K. It looks that way to me on video, only slightly, but maybe the effect was stronger in real life. You're obviously seeing it differently -- which speaks to the subjectivity of evaluating "good" height, distance, and ice coverage by the naked eye.
It would require instrument-calibrated measurements to determine what the actual height, distance, and ice coverage were, which figure skating scoring does not use at this time. If they ever do, that will take those evaluations away from the judges. But for now, those aspects of the elements are estimated by eye in real time and not subject to the rewinding and slow-motion replay we engage in here to try to analyze after the fact.
Another possibility is that some judges did in fact give Sotnikova credit for the mazurka as a creative variation on the landing.
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- Feb 26, 2014
Interesting. Sky Italia did a sbs video analysis between Carolina and Adelina.
I must say the guy who did it it's from Eurosport Ita. He is very knowledgeable, not biased at all and openly a Yuna fan.
He said that the best footwork were Carolina's. I regret that I didn't recorded that but I was not expecting it.
He said that both were level 4 but that Carolina's performance was a bit better, therefore higher GOE for her.
I don't know about Yuna though because it was done the day after by Barbara Fusar Poli, and I didn't see that bit.
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- Mar 23, 2010
It is an interesting view from the Italian commentator, especially on Yuna should be on level 4. On Chinese boards on Baidu (by Xmypku - an objective poster) did analyse all step sequences as well (+ Mao, Carolina), and come to conclusion Yuna's step sequence is the most difficult and intricate because the sheer number of movements (Some 50+ movements) that must be seamlessly integrate with the music with little margins for error which in itself is an added challenge compare with a more giving piece of music. It was certainly my reason for appreciating this piece of work since the beginning - even it had been work in progress due to sheer ambition outside the COP parameters, I was curious if she can deliver the intention when it matters.
I thought I'd summaries all these step sequences from the top 4 ladies.
Any mistakes in translation is my own fault, please feel free to correct and I am happy to amend. (I fully expected it, this is all a bit new to me translate tech terms from Chinese into English since some words like inner and inside is the same word in Chinese.)
Source: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2940130375 (Revised from Blade of Passion's original analysis and breaks down in more detail)
Kim's
1. Toe step, counterclockwise
2. Back edge pull with free foot toepick push, clockwise
3. Mohawk, clockwise
4. Waltz hop, clockwise
5. Cross step, clockwise
6. Change of edge from inside to outside with free foot in quick ina position, counterclockwise
7. Change edge from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice
8. Rocker, clockwise
9. Bracket, clockwise
10. Counter, clockwise
11. Cross Roll, counterclockwise
12. Rocker, counterclockwise
13. Change edge from outside to inside
14. Loop, counterclockwise
15. Full turn on ice while changing feet, counterclockwise
16. Toe steps, clockwise
17. Rocker, clockwise
18. Cross step, counterclockwise
19. Choctaw executed with a hop, clockwise
20. Twizzle, clockwise
21. Chasse, clockwise
22. Choctaw, clockwise + Choctaw, counterclockwise
23. Top hop, counterclockwise
24. Twizzle, counterclockwise (x2)
25. Rocker, counterclockwise
26. Edge change from inside to outside
27. Three turn, counterclockwise
28. Brief back inside two foot glide with back free foot mini-kick
29. Choctaw, clockwise
30. Three turn, clockwise
31. Loop, clockwise
32. Toe hop, clockwise
33. Chasse, counterclockwise
34. Curve with change of edge, clockwise
35. Bracket, counterclockwise
36. Cross step, clockwise
37. Cross step, counterclockwise
38. Half turn and edge change from inside to outside with free foot push, clockwise
39. Toe step, clockwise
40. Counter, counterclockwise
41. Twizzle, counterclockwise (x2)
42. Three turn, counterclockwise
43. Rocker, counterclockwise
44. Half turn and edge change from inside to outside with free foot placed on ice, counterclockwise
45. Change of foot with free foot push, counterclockwise
46. Illusion turn, counterclockwise
47. Chasse, counterclockwise
48. Toe step, clockwise
49. Cross step, counterclockwise
50. Chasse, counterclockwise
51. Toe step, counterclockwise
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Kostner's performance described as exciting, and it is the strongest part of the program that meet the music buildup from soft to strong to high.
Source: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2948217346
1. toe steps, counterclockwise
2. change of edge，clockwise
3. three turns，clockwise
4. twizzle x2，clockwise
5. rocker，clockwise
6. counter，clockwise
7. change of edge + 2 foot skating，clockwise
8. toe steps，counterclockwise
9. change of foot (or Mawhawk)，counterclockwise
10.three turns，clockwise (it meant to be 2x 3turns, but rule state 3turns must be one footed, so 2nd 3turn is discounted because Kostner dropped her foot)
11. Inner spread eagle，clockwise
12. cross roll rockers，counter + clockwise
13. toe hop，clockwise
14. rocker，clockwise
15. counter，clockwise
16. loop，clockwise
17. hop，clockwise
18. three turns，counterclockwise
19. loop，counterclockwise
20. twizzle x2，counterclockwise
21. choctaw，counterclockwise
22. rocker，counterclockwise
23. counter，counterclockwise
24. bracket，clockwise
25. running steps，clockwise
26. choctaw，clockwise
27. curve with change of edge，clockwise + counterclockwise
28. bracket，counterclockwise
29. Rocker，counterclockwise
30. three turns，counterclockwise
Even though it contains less step movements than Yuna's Adios, it took place during the music highlights, therefore was effective with good degrees of difficulty, enough for level 4. The poster think Kim's step sequence is more difficult due to the footwork composition of the turns, and the ice coverage placement is far richer. Although Kostner also has her high degree of difficulty, since her turns are all basically on the outer edge. Kim is limited by the Tango upright posture which restrict her ability to freely lean forward backwards, windmill arms and such and thus stylistically completely different from Bolero which creatively is more impressionist in approach, therefore Kostner can really let it go with freedom without any restrictions.
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Asada's sequences (source: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2979994768)
All of mao's program from Tat always consist of a final straight line step sequence that is the most important highlight of the program, from ladies in Lavender till Rach 2. Again, this step sequence is fully packed with difficulty and satisfy level 4.
1. right back inner twizzle，clockwise
2. edge work，clockwise
3. right back 3turn，clockwise
4. Curve change of edge (left float leg (?) swing), right forward to right inner, counterclockwise
5. edge work, counterclockwise
6. edge work，clockwise
7. right forward outer twizzle x2, clockwise(right back inner glide)
8. right back inner rocker, clockwise
9. right forward inner counter, clockwise
10. edgework with a toe hop, counterclockwise
11. right forward inner 3 turn, counterclockwise
12. left forward outer twizzle, counterclockwise
13. axel，counterclockwise
14. right back outer twizzle x 2, counterclockwise
15. right forward inner bracket, clockwise
16. back rocker，clockwise
17. change of edge, left outer to left right inner, counterclockwise
18. left back inner rocker, counterclockwise
19. left forward inner bracket, counterclockwise
20. left back outer counter, counterclockwise
21. left forward outer loop, counterclockwise (followed by axel)
22. edge change, step, right back outer to right back inner, clockwise
23. right back inner loop, clockwise
24. hop followed by illusion spin (left forward outer 3turn + left back inner loop)，counterclockwise
25. choctaw x 3, right back outer, left forward inner - right back outer - left forward inner，counterclockwise+clockwise+counterclockwise
26. mohawk, counterclockwise
Although on paper, this step sequence doesn't look as difficult as Yuna, it is about the same as Kostner, but it is very difficult for 2 particular reasons. One is that is packed with content, such as hop, turn, demanding upper body movement need to be completed during the the music highlight. Secondly, some movements on paper may look simple but is physically demanding like the 4,5 turn with use of edge works, basically physically draining, a dash till the end. Interestingly the poster think there are room for choreographic improvement, like even though there are 2 single 3turns, with good upper body movement, but to someone of Mao's stature and ability, it is not grand enough. He noted Tat is always goes for 'grander grander magnificent' type of feeling, which doesn't always match Mao's natural style, although he also think other than the 2 one footed spins, Tat could have added one more to be more well rounded. He praised Mao as the one who were able to let herself go and give her all the most although he still think Yuna's step sequence was best due deep edges, clarity of movements and difficulty.
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Sotnikova's level 3 step sequence
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2938890267
Won't go into too much details but the gist is the step sequence wasn't executed well. The sequence is so-so constructed, movements were abrasive, unclear and rough around the edges literally, e.g many edge toe hops. He consider the standards between Yuna and Adelina far apart, not only in the degree of difficulty but also in the execution. This is the hardest step sequence to break down, where many of the smaller in-between movements are hard to define due to the execution is simply unclear. It refers to the BoP thread here before it breaks down in more details step by step with thoughts. I might as well cut and paste the sequence again
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...lyzing-Sotnikova-and-Kim-s-footwork-in-the-FS
1.) Three Turn, counterclockwise (x2)
2.) Curve with change of edge, clockwise
3.) Twizzle, clockwise
4). Toe Hop, counterlockwise
5.) Rocker, counterclockwise
6.) Change edge from inside to outside
7.) Three Turn, clockwise
8.) Twizzle, counterclockwise (barely makes it around and free foot comes down quickly)
9.) Curve with change of edge, clockwise
10.) Loop, clockwise
11.) Three Turn, clockwise
12.) Choctaw, counterclockwise
13.) Illusion turn, counterclockwise
14.) Toe Steps, clockwise
15.) Rocker, clockwise
16.) Counter, clockwise
17.) Bracket, counterclockwise (FAILED attempt, edge is flat before the turn and unsteady on exit, with free foot coming down)
18.) Mohawk, counterclockwise
19.) Loop, counterclockwise
20.) Toe Hop, clockwise
21.) Chasse, clockwise
22.) Rocker, clockwise
23.) Rocker, counterclockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)
24.) Rocker, counterclockwise
25.) Chasse, clockwise (x3)
26.) Edge change from inside to outside
27.) Edge change from outside to inside with free foot placed on ice
28.) Rocker, clockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)
29.) Three Turn, clockwise
He think step 28 for example may be a rocker mistake, or possibly a mistaken counter. He consulted another Chinese expert on the levels, they agreed given what was delivered on the day , they should all be marked level 4, or all level 3, or Yuna should be 4 and Adelina should be 3, then it makes sense. Yuna should have had higher grades of execution but she did not get higher level nor did she get higher GOEs.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Looking back on the GOEs, I can't help but to shake my head. Consider GOEs been curbed back by 30% since Vancouver, Adelina would have gained 14.11 + 30% = 20.16 in GOE in Vancouver, that is basically a world record in GOEs despite a Flutz, UR3T, abrasive level 3 step sequence, 2 footed step out out for 'that' program and beating every lady in Vancouver. Incredible.
Two persons who each gave Adelina 3 on the 2A are coincidently also awarded her the most maximum GOE as seen on the score sheet which are judge # 2 & 7. What’s even more puzzling is how the panel scored so differently on her first combination in the program.
Adelina:
3Lz+3T 2 2 -1 1 2 2 3 0 1
One judge penalized her for flutz/UR while the other awarded her greatly as if it’s perfect execution. That is a separation of 4 points. It’s bizarre. It’s like they were watching two different performances.
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- Feb 17, 2010
One got +GOE, one got -GOE. What's the problem?
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- Jan 28, 2014
I was actually referring to people making a fuss about crossovers here in general, not in this thread. I was not trying to insult a skater nor am I trying to pick a fight with anyone. Just saying my observations and what I felt and thought about the performances. The fact that Adelina did not execute steps clearly may have contributed to my interpretation that in between her 3S and 2A was kind of empty. Apologies if I offended anyone.
I'm all for just analyzing the programs. I respect that everyone has their own interpretation. Just sharing mine. That's what I said in my previous post. Personally, I would put Kim ahead in Transitions because she executed hers with more clarity and refinement than Sot. I'm all for quality more than quantity. Adelina did have a lot of transitions but most of them were not executed cleanly or clearly. I think the same thing happened in the step sequence where Adelina attempted a variety of steps and turns but failed to execute them correctly, clearly and cleanly.
Yuna's 2A was high too. Sure Adelina's was higher considering she had fresher legs that time but that doesn't mean they should not consider the height that Yuna gets with hers also considering that she did that at the end of her program. Doesn't that count for something? If they were to be kind and make considerations, they should have applied it to all. It's like saying they would not score skater A the same because skater B did it better, even though both met the requirement for the same score.
Another possibility is that they were extremely generous to her while being overly stingy to Yuna.
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- Mar 1, 2014
I feel like someone mentioned that their "conspiracy theory" was that the ISU was trying to push the up and coming skaters. I agree with this. The three most popular and arguably the best up and coming skaters pre-Sochi were: Adelina, Yulia, and Gracie. These are the same three skaters that had the most inflated scores in Sochi.
^I always leaned towards that over corruption as an explanation. There was an interview where Scott Hamilton just blatantly predicted that the judges would be sympathetic towards Yulia because Yuna is already so successful (financially).
This is really helpful, thank you so much for translating!
This is really helpful, thank you so much for translating!
Now that you asked I notice judge #4 is the only one who graded Yuna +3 for the 3Lz, not a good intention probably. He/she also had given out the most +1s to her elements which tied judge #2, and yet somehow out of the blue just thrown the highest GOE at Yuna for that particular execution as if to tease her or something. In fact it’s the only +3 he/she ever awarded her on the protocol.
Is judge #4’s eyes are OK I wonder or that is one wacky individual.
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- Feb 26, 2014
The reason he was prasing Kostner was that a) he was analysing Kostner and Adelina only at that moment, not Yuna, and b) he said that Caro's upper body movement was the best and really highlighted the music.
From what I could see and say (I'm not an expert) this goes for Mao too. As you said, Mao+TAT really nailed the footwork sequences in all their programs. The best part for me.
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- Feb 17, 2010
If this is true, and I do find it plausible, I don't think it is because of a conspiracy. I think the judges themselves get excited to see the young skaters perform well because it is usually a contrast to the more reserved style of the veterans. Comparing Adelina to each of Yuna, Mao or Caro and I think you'll see the veterans had more polished performances but Adelina skated with more energy and excitement. Whether you like Adelina or not, you have to admit that she "went for it" more than Yuna or Caro.
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That's my theory!
I also added that I wondered if Yuna had skated the GP if she likely would have held the scores more in check last season. Not that dissimilar to the way a professor grades on a curve. It's the same reason it's hard to compare scores from event to event. The composition of the field changes the scores somewhat in order to "properly" place the skaters.
I also added that I wondered if Yuna had skated the GP if she likely would have held the scores more in check last season. Not that dissimilar to the way a professor grades on a curve. It's the same reason it's hard to compare scores from event to event. The composition of the field changes the scores somewhat in order to "properly" place the skaters.
No you don't. That is a load of ********. Carolina busted her *** to skate a clean lp, and Yuna likewise struggled to do that brilliant step sequence. Those who say Adelina just 'had excitement' are full of ****.
I have a question regarding the judge panel...
Is it normal they switch some judges after the short program for the long? Do they always do that for Olympics?
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- Feb 26, 2014
Yes. I think they do that in all competitions.
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