Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 71 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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Rinkside
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That wasn't the point of mentioning that combination in the explanation of why GOE values were reduced after 2010, though. The Scale of Values is the same for both sexes, so rule changes that were inspired by reasons more relevant to men will also have an impact on women, and vice versa.


Because that combination is too hard for most female skaters. They don't do it in competition because they can't do it at all.

Or for some good but not exceptional jumpers, they can make a credible attempt, but not consistently, not well enough to avoid underrotations/downgrades, edge calls, and -GOE. More valuable to do an easier combination that they can actually pull off well enough for +GOE.

It's not so hard for the average senior man, because men are built differently than women.

Thanks for responding. I was just following up to the original user of his/her first post and thereafter which he/she reiterating a few times implying that combination is not that hard for women. Therefore I want to know if what he/she said is true since I thought it wasn’t the case. Anyway, appreciate for your input to confirm otherwise.
 
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My understanding is that a computer program keeps track of which judge gave which marks before they're scrambled in the protocols, but without identifying the judges to the referees or any other person at the time. At the end of the season the programs track each judge's deviations from the rest of the panel, and judges who vary too much are flagged for a commission that reviews the discrepancies. That commission has access to the names and can ask the judges for explanations and impose disciplinary assessments. I'd have to find the documentation and read up on the details.

Here is the ISU document about the judges' review procedure. There may be an updated version.

http://static.isu.org/media/99367/1631-officials-evaluation.pdf

My recollection is that about 10 to 20 judges are reprimanded each year under these rules, half or more in ice dance. I guess ice dance is the hardest discipline to judge. Almost all of the citations are for less well-established judges at lower-level events.
 
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Rinkside
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Is that what happened here, several judges conspiring to overmark some skaters and undermark others, in cahoots with a technical panel who conspired to give overly lenient calls to some and overly harsh to others?

Maybe.

Or maybe a combination of some judges' unconscious bias and unconscious reaction to the Russian audience's response to Russian skaters, some honest mistakes by judges and tech panel, and some entirely justifiable honest calls by both tech panel and judges that observers who prefer a different skater happen to disagree with.

Or maybe it’s a combination of conspiracy, unconscious bias and honest judges. Looking at the score sheet… judge # 2 & 7 for the first girl and judge # 5 & 9 for the other girl are the most suspicious. The discrepancies are too much.
 

Meoima

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Or maybe it’s a combination of conspiracy, unconscious bias and honest judges. Looking at the score sheet… judge # 2 & 7 for the first girl and judge # 5 & 9 for the other girl are the most suspicious. The discrepancies are too much.
Maybe ISU has investigated these 2&7 apor 5&9 judges already? But they don't want to make a fuss for fear of more mess-up that can affect their faces? Any news any judge in Sochi get reprimanded yet?
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Or maybe it’s a combination of conspiracy, unconscious bias and honest judges. Looking at the score sheet… judge # 2 & 7 for the first girl and judge # 5 & 9 for the other girl are the most suspicious. The discrepancies are too much.

To be 100% fair you should also consider Yuna's judges #3 and #6. Especially her PCS. It is important to note that these judges were not likely in the SP since the scoring was more uniform there.

I do agree that Yulia and Adelina had two unfair/generous judges:yes:
 

gkelly

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Or maybe it’s a combination of conspiracy, unconscious bias and honest judges.

Yes, I think it's more likely that one or two judges were actively trying to force a pro-Russian result than that there was a massive conspiracy involving the majority of the judging panel and technical panel. But meanwhile other factors also happened to break in Sotnikova's favor.
 

VirMo

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Yes, I think it's more likely that one or two judges were actively trying to force a pro-Russian result than that there was a massive conspiracy involving the majority of the judging panel and technical panel. But meanwhile other factors also happened to break in Sotnikova's favor.

I mean, I actually think that even if you don't deliberately try to wig the result to be pro-Russian, some bias is unavoidable, especially with the effect of the crowd's reaction. Like if Russian-related judges (which were too many actually) gave just one more point of GOE for every element..
 

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Rinkside
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Maybe ISU has investigated these 2&7 apor 5&9 judges already? But they don't want to make a fuss for fear of more mess-up that can affect their faces? Any news any judge in Sochi get reprimanded yet?
Perhaps they did if they have any integrity left for the spirit of the games. They might be having a big migraine thinking how to address to the media, press and all. I don’t really know of any update about it yet.

To be 100% fair you should also consider Yuna's judges #3 and #6. Especially her PCS. It is important to note that these judges were not likely in the SP since the scoring was more uniform there.

I do agree that Yulia and Adelina had two unfair/generous judges:yes:

Considering there are two judges going against her which are #2 & 4. Taking into that account, her scores are still within the normal distribution to the others. If anything, it is a disastrous judging that she is just a mere fraction over Adelina’s over all.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Considering there are two judges going against her which are #2 & 4. Taking into that account, her scores are still within the normal distribution to the others. If anything, it is a disastrous judging that she is just a mere fraction over Adelina’s over all.

Yes. That is a good point. It's no smoking gun or anything but certainly makes a case for bad judging. I agree Yuna should have a PCS advantage but to what extent is up for debate. To me it should have been much closer in the end with Adelina winning the TES and Yuna the PCS. The margin of victory is what makes it look awful suspicious. Had it been closer would there be less of a debate? I really doubt it:slink:

All three medalists deserve a :clap: and the judges a :scowl:
 

Alba

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Perhaps they did if they have any integrity left for the spirit of the games. They might be having a big migraine thinking how to address to the media, press and all. I don’t really know of any update about it yet.

If I remember well, they do control and review the outcome. There is a committee, or something like that, but they do never adress to the media.
So, I don't think they are thinking about that at all.
 

dorispulaski

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AFAIR, an ISU communication is written when judges are cited. I don't remember a tech panellist being cited ever? Does anyone remember a case?

Here's a sample from last year. These communications typically come out in June, so it is not surprising that we haven't seen any from this year yet.
http://static.isu.org/media/108938/1795-decision-of-isu-disciplinary-commission.pdf


1. Natalia Kruglova is guilty of misconduct and of violation of the duties of judges and the ISU Code of Ethics 2012.
2. A two years suspension from participation in all ISU activities as an ISU Judge is imposed on Natalia Kruglova, beginning on December 24, 2012 (date of the provisional suspension) and ending on December 23, 2014.
3. The Complainants and Ms. Kruglova shall bear their own costs.
4. The costs of the hearing (room and travel expenses of the panel and the witness) are imposed on the Ukrainian Figure Skating Federation.

This decision is subject to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) as per Article 25, paragraph 1 of the ISU Constitution 2012. The decisions of the Disciplinary Commission are published in full on the ISU website.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/s...ing-figure-skating-gets-mixed-marks.html?_r=0

Kruglova solicited extra points for the Ukrainian pair at Cup of Nice that year.
 
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Rinkside
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Yes. That is a good point. It's no smoking gun or anything but certainly makes a case for bad judging. I agree Yuna should have a PCS advantage but to what extent is up for debate. To me it should have been much closer in the end with Adelina winning the TES and Yuna the PCS. The margin of victory is what makes it look awful suspicious. Had it been closer would there be less of a debate? I really doubt it:slink:

All three medalists deserve a :clap: and the judges a :scowl:

Assuming they all called flutz for -1 like judge #3 did on Adelina’s first combination and the tech panel switched the step sequence level between her and Yuna.

Adelina:

3Lz+3T 1.0 GOE --> -0.70 (1.70 points discrepancy)
StSq4 BV 3.90 --> 3.30 1.70 GOE --> 1.21 (1.09 points discrepancy)
TES 75.54 -1.70 -1.09 = 72.75

Yuna:

StSq3 BV 3.30 --> 3.90 1.14 GOE --> 1.60 (1.06 points gap)
TES 69.69 + 1.06 = 70.75

Yuna’s PCS (74.50) should be at least 2.50 points higher than Adelina’s (74.41 -2.41 = 72.00).

Final:
Yuna 70.75 (TES) + 74.50 (PCS)+ 74.92 (SP) = 220.17
Adelina 72.75 (TES) + 72.00 (PCS) + 74.64 (SP) = 219.39

It is very close indeed. The gap could be quite bigger if the judges weren’t too generous given out + GOEs to Adelina and lenient on her other mistakes.
I don’t think it would be much of debate when there isn’t any glaring bias. In this case it was not only one judge but two!

AFAIR, an ISU communication is written when judges are cited. I don't remember a tech panellist being cited ever? Does anyone remember a case?

Here's a sample from last year. These communications typically come out in June, so it is not surprising that we haven't seen any from this year yet.
http://static.isu.org/media/108938/1795-decision-of-isu-disciplinary-commission.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/s...ing-figure-skating-gets-mixed-marks.html?_r=0

Kruglova solicited extra points for the Ukrainian pair at Cup of Nice that year.

Interesting read. Thanks for the link.
 

MiRé

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Assuming they all called flutz for -1 like judge #3 did on Adelina’s first combination and the tech panel switched the step sequence level between her and Yuna.

Adelina:

3Lz+3T 1.0 GOE --> -0.70 (1.70 points discrepancy)
StSq4 BV 3.90 --> 3.30 1.70 GOE --> 1.21 (1.09 points discrepancy)
TES 75.54 -1.70 -1.09 = 72.75

Yuna:

StSq3 BV 3.30 --> 3.90 1.14 GOE --> 1.60 (1.06 points gap)
TES 69.69 + 1.06 = 70.75

Yuna’s PCS (74.50) should be at least 2.50 points higher than Adelina’s (74.41 -2.41 = 72.00).

Final:
Yuna 70.75 (TES) + 74.50 (PCS)+ 74.92 (SP) = 220.17
Adelina 72.75 (TES) + 72.00 (PCS) + 74.64 (SP) = 219.39

It is very close indeed. The gap could be quite bigger if the judges weren’t too generous given out + GOEs to Adelina and lenient on her other mistakes.
I don’t think it would be much of debate when there isn’t any glaring bias. In this case it was not only one judge but two!



Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

Wouldn't be super close if SP was rightfully judged too. I'd say at least 3-4 points difference (still too high) :scowl:
 

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Rinkside
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The SP is also strange. I haven’t paying much attention to it yet but glancing at it Yuna is zapped by two judges again I think.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Wouldn't be super close if SP was rightfully judged too. I'd say at least 3-4 points difference (still too high) :scowl:

Agreed.

It's so weird -- Kim skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is tied with Sotnikova skating clean with a 3T+3T.

At Euros, Lipnitskaia skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is higher than Kostner skating clean with a 3T+3T.

:rolleye:
 

sk8in

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Agreed.

It's so weird -- Kim skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is tied with Sotnikova skating clean with a 3T+3T.

At Euros, Lipnitskaia skates clean in her SP with 3Z+3T, and is higher than Kostner skating clean with a 3T+3T.

:rolleye:
Which is the problem when Kostner pulled the 3F+3T out in the short just for that reason---and she hadn't done that combo clean in a while. It says to skaters that their efforts simply don't matter.
 

Ven

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It says to skaters that their efforts simply don't matter.

Don't forget Sotnikova should have received both a downgrade and an edge call, and the step sequence levels should have been reversed. How many points differential is that? Not to mention her excessive PCS and GOEs. If she had been scored accurately she would have been about 20 points lower and 15 shy of Kim.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Can I ask what is the point in all this? We can discuss/debate all day and even until our fingers callous. The truth is nothing we say will change anything. Instead of focusing unnecessarily on Sotnikova and judging failures at some point we need to just move this to the Yuna fanfest and begin to celebrate one of the greatest careers this sport has ever known. I would join in for sure :) Why not just let things play out, as they will regardless of anything said here, and instead focus our energy on how Yuna made an undeniable presence on the ice. Everyone has said their piece by now. Unless some new development takes place then what's the point?
 

Ven

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It will never move on. Deal with it.

This isn't a Yuna fan fest. Do you really think Blades of Passion is a Yuna fan? Do you think he started this thread for the sake of one skater, or that so many others post in these threads because of one skater? Do you really think there is any "moving on to the next competition" when the sanctioning body that runs the sport has shown that it is involved with rigging competitions? What is the point of watching the next competition when the crooks are still running it? OK you can watch Skate America and Cup of Russia and World Champs next year and guess what? The ISU runs those too and those competitions will be every bit as illegitimate as this one.
 

TMC

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It will never move on. Deal with it.

This isn't a Yuna fan fest. Do you really think Blades of Passion is a Yuna fan? Do you think he started this thread for the sake of one skater, or that so many others post in these threads because of one skater? Do you really think there is any "moving on to the next competition" when the sanctioning body that runs the sport has shown that it is involved with rigging competitions? What is the point of watching the next competition when the crooks are still running it? OK you can watch Skate America and Cup of Russia and World Champs next year and guess what? The ISU runs those too and those competitions will be every bit as illegitimate as this one.

Wholeheartedly agree. It's not about these specific skaters, it's in the interest of all skaters that the judging be fair and the judges competent and "untouchable".

I'm not a Yuna/Adelina/Yulia fan by any means. I like Carolina so may have some bias for her, but honestly I don't even care about any of the current lady skaters to get all up in arms for any one of them (I follow men, pairs, recently dance much more). What I will get in arms against is blatant cheating. It does a disservice to both good and not-so-good skaters.

At the moment, my favourite skater is Jason Brown. I'm invested in his journey and take pleasure from his performances and success. Yet, I'd much prefer him never to get higher than, say, bronze or even fourth at worlds with a tough and fair tech panel than see him make obvious mistakes and get three golds over a more deserving skater due to influence from his fed or whoever/whatever other instance. I want to be able to celebrate with a good conscience.
 
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