Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

Status
Not open for further replies.

kslr0816

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Blades of Passion can be feisty, but he did not "edit the text of the rules." He copied and pasted verbatim from pages 8 and 9 of ISU Communication 1790. (In particular there are no commas in the sentence in question.)

Mathman, do you know what the "correct interpretation" of the rule is?
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Now I'm curious about what Kostner (level4), Asada (level4) and Yu-Na Kim (level3) did in their step sequences too. Hoping for analysis :agree:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Doing one step and four turns in both directions does not mean she did a total of one type of step and four types of turns. Unless my English is as bad as you say it is.

What you just wrote is an example of poorly worded sentence. "One step" as you wrote it could mean simply one step. It is not connect to the "four turns in both directions" later in the sentence. If you had said "one step and four turns all in both directions", that would make it clear.

Face the facts - EVERY Level 4 step sequence in the past four years has shown 5 different types of steps, all executed in both directions, and 3 different types of types, all executed in both directions.

Blades of Passion can be feisty, but he did not "edit the text of the rules." He copied and pasted verbatim from pages 8 and 9 of ISU Communication 1790. (In particular there are no commas in the sentence in question.)

Well that's what people are having trouble with (since they have no valid arguments and are grasping at straws). What I wrote has a comma in the sentence, the ISU text does not. But it doesn't matter AT ALL either way. The rule is clear.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Face the facts - EVERY Level 4 step sequence in the past four years has shown 5 different types of steps, all executed in both directions, and 3 different types of types, all executed in both directions.

Wow, you've done the same analysis for every level 4 step sequence in the past four years? Or are you just saying that to blow off a legitimate question?
 

kslr0816

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Wow, you've done the same analysis for every level 4 step sequence in the past four years? Or are you just saying that to blow off a legitimate question?

this is just a nonsense nitpick of wording. let's assume he did - then, do you know of one that doesn't?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The OP, and a few others, disagree, based on a rule currently being discussed. This is why the discussion exists. I don't know what the rule is, which is why I haven't said anything about the actual step sequence being level 3 or level 4, I'm learning as I go along. To me it does seem, as OP stated, the burden of proof is on you. Your response is basically, it's correct because it was called correct. For the more inquisitive mind, that's not a good enough answer. at least DMD is discussing the actual rule that this argument basically hinges on.

The way the rule is written the listing of elements performed by sotnikova in the step sequence can be called level 4.
 

kslr0816

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
The way the rule is written the listing of elements performed by sotnikova in the step sequence can be called level 4.

great. can you support your statement with another example of a performance that follows the guidelines (solely interpreted in this way) which received level 4?
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
this is just a nonsense nitpick of wording. let's assume he did - then, do you know of one that doesn't?

No, but I'm not the one telling people to "face the facts" and accept everything someone says as true. I'm trying to have a dialogue, not trying to shut people up by criticizing their reading comprehension.
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
From an objective perspective, I could see making an error that would prevent level four by missing one turn. However, for her to do as many steps as she did but only do 1/3 needed in both directions makes me think her program was choreographed in this way, and for her to get level 3 multiple times this season would suggest she would review the footage and change the choreography needed to get level 4.
This casts doubt in my mind, as to whether the rules are indeed interpretted as BoP says.

Unless she had no intention of trying for level 4, could she really get it so badly wrong as to miss THAT many elements? Neither seems very plausible (although either IS possible).

And if the tech panel was deliberately cheating, would they really do it in a way that is so easy to catch? Especially when it (apparently) has so little value in terms of points? I mean this is not like a borderline edge or UR call, or anonymous and subjective GoE or PCS scoring - this is something that's "out there" for anyone with sufficient knowledge to spot. Again, it doesn't seem very plausible. They could of course simply be incompetent. This is where analysis of other skaters would help.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Wow, you've done the same analysis for every level 4 step sequence in the past four years?

EVERY competitive skating choreographer knows the rule and choreographs the sequence as such if their skater is capable of it. Would you like me to get Lori Nichol on The Skating Lesson?

I have done this analysis for all of Patrick Chan's and Daisuke Takahashi's footwork sequences from the past 4 years, btw. They do 5 different types of turns, each type in both directions, and 3 different types of steps, each type in both directions.

Unless she had no intention of trying for level 4, could she really get it so badly wrong as to miss THAT many elements?

Do you have ANY clue as to how difficult figure skating is and how common it is to get an edge wrong?
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
EVERY competitive skating choreographer knows the rule and choreographs the sequence as such if their skater is capable of it. Would you like me to get Lori Nichol on The Skating Lesson?

I have done this analysis for all of Patrick Chan's and Daisuke Takahashi's footwork sequences from the past 4 years, btw. They do 5 different types of turns, each type in both directions, and 3 different types of steps, each type in both directions.

What they have done is consistent with both interpretations so I'm not sure how that favors one. Maybe they chose 5 turns instead of 6 because it's easier.

Are you suggesting that Adelina's team is so clueless as to not know they needed to do more than one step in both directions, as she did 3+ in each direction? Her choreographer is an ice dancer and she got level 3 multiple times this season. I'm sure they could have figured it out.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
This casts doubt in my mind, as to whether the rules are indeed interpretted as BoP says.

Unless she had no intention of trying for level 4, could she really get it so badly wrong as to miss THAT many elements? Neither seems very plausible (although either IS possible).

And if the tech panel was deliberately cheating, would they really do it in a way that is so easy to catch? Especially when it (apparently) has so little value in terms of points? I mean this is not like a borderline edge or UR call, or anonymous and subjective GoE or PCS scoring - this is something that's "out there" for anyone with sufficient knowledge to spot. Again, it doesn't seem very plausible. They could of course simply be incompetent. Analysis of other skaters would be telling.

I don't mean to be (too, lol) insulting but are you basing your opinion because DMD started the sentence with "From an object perspective (which isn't really true anyway, the part about the OP being objective when it comes to Adelina, lol). Adelina could have just as easily got lost in the moment and probably forgot a sequence or two. Just because she intended to do them did not mean that she did. Her program was certainly busy enough that it certainly was possible that she failed to mentally check a box or two.

The bottom line for me is (stray) comma, or not, i cannot see how the rules can be parsed any differently than BoP stated (at least realistically). Anything else smacks of gainsaying for the sake of being contradictory to me.
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
I don't mean to be (too, lol) insulting but are you basing your opinion because DMD started her sentence with "From an object perspective
No, it just strikes me as odd, that either:

a) she did not attempt to get level4, or that
b) she and her choreographers failed to sort out her choreography, or that
c) she had the right choreography, but spectacularly failed to execute it.

And then the judges gave her level4 anyway.

Not saying that BoP is right or wrong... or that one of the above isn't indeed the case. I wouldn't know. Just that I have doubts. I am a natural sceptic and cynic...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I do not find the argument very convincing that goes, "Adelina's choreographer must have known the rules, therefore Adelina must have executed a level four sequence."

If that was all there was to it, every skater would do a level four sequence every time. Adelina herself would have done a level four sequence all season long -- the choreographer did not just suddenly discover the rules last month.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
What they have done is consistent with both interpretations so I'm not sure how that favors one. Maybe they chose 5 turns instead of 6 because it's easier.

Are you suggesting that Adelina's team is so clueless as to not know they needed to do more than one step in both directions, as she did 3+ in each direction? Her choreographer is an ice dancer and she got level 3 multiple times this season. I'm sure they could have figured it out.

When tech school and clarification memos to tech panel members push that it means 5 CW and 5 CCW and 3 CW and 3CCW and 3 sets of "clusters" for L4, then that is what is meant. As I stated when I cut and pasted the rules and the source, my coach IS a Regional TS and in designing her skaters' leveled steps (and in calling leveled steps at competitions), she makes sure it is 5/5 and 3/3 MINIMUM or else it doesn't get called. I suspect that if Sotnikova was trying to get a L4, either her bracket was supposed to be a counter or her counter was supposed to be a bracket (as those were the mis-matched turns).

There is also a possibility that it was DESIGNED as a L3 (especially since she's gotten L2 and L3 all season until here) but it was miscalled.
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
I do not find the argument very convincing that goes, "Adelina's choreographer must have known the rules, therefore Adelina must have executed a level four sequence."
You made up your own "argument" (a non-sequitur, based loosely on the discussion at hand)...
...and then told yourself you are not convinced by that argument.

o_O
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
I don't understand why she is doing that many rockers and three turns? :confused:

5.) Rocker, counterclockwise
15.) Rocker, clockwise
22.) Rocker, clockwise
23.) Rocker, counterclockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)
28.) Rocker, clockwise (barely, edge is shallow and immediately changes over)

1.) Three Turn, counterclockwise (x2)
7.) Three Turn, clockwise
11.) Three Turn, clockwise
29.) Three Turn, clockwise

Why she is also doing that turns which they are not counting? -Especially Illusion-
16.) Counter, clockwise
17.) Bracket, counterclockwise
13.) Illusion turn, counterclockwise


Different types of Turns: three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
elif, those are probably her "easy" turns based on body construction and what she has learned and are a good way for HER to cover the ice. I know I cover better ice and gain more speed as I go on both of those types of turns (and twizzles) than I do on brackets and counters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top