2014 Worlds Junior Ice Dance - Free Dance

Mrs. P said:

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/444579968756899840/photo/1

Beautiful lift from Hawayek/Baker! Jean-Luc's edges

Click to expand...

Wow Wow Wow!!!,

Turbo-Mom said:

Can't be any prouder of Kaitlyn and Jean-Luc. After the Grand Prix these kids really focused and worked their butts off. Congrats to Krylova, Camerlengo, Scali, Annenko Deller and Swallow. This Free Dance was sensational and choreography was superb. Save travels home - Well have a parade up Dennison Street.

Click to expand...

I just watched it! It was gorgeous! And so much improved from nationals!

Are H&B Camerlengo & krylova's first Jr. World gold medal team?

Btw, good luck to Alex & Daniel at their first Senior Worlds!

I hope there will be video of the parade.

lol Kaitlin was ecstatic Good for them.

My only concern is Jean's ability to handle rotational lifts. Everything else, including their SL lifts, were sensational.


M/C were scored severely imo. Oh well, I'm sure they'll transition very nicely to seniors.

M&C will likely stay in juniors one more year, I would guess, since all couples ahead of them must go senior next year and they don't have to.

dorispulaski said:

M&C will likely stay in juniors one more year, I would guess, since all couples ahead of them must go senior next year and they don't have to.

Click to expand...

Yep, Lorraine just turned 15 last month. They might as well stay and get that national junior title!

And seniors are going to be crowded with Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donahue, Aldridge/Eaton, Baker, Hawayek and perhaps the Shibs (if they decide to continue).

I was thinking the same thing. There's quite a glut of young and hungry American ice dance teams in the senior ranks right now.

Is it common for ice dance partners to be nearly four years apart in age, that seems like more than usual to me...

caitie said:

I was thinking the same thing. There's quite a glut of young and hungry American ice dance teams in the senior ranks right now

Is it common for ice dance partners to be nearly four years apart in age, that seems like more than usual to me...

Click to expand...

It depends. I mean, under the old age rules a 4 year gap could still afford 3 or 4 Junior seasons.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Well hopefully M/C will stay put, 15 seems a little young to go to seniors in ice dance to me.

I'm impatiently awaiting the icenetwork article about the new rules for next season. Apparently there will be one less lift allowed, and teams will be able to do either a choreographic lift or a choreographic spin, so it looks like the people who complain ice dance has become too much about lifts and acrobatics have got their wish...

caitie said:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Well hopefully M/C will stay put, 15 seems a little young to go to seniors in ice dance to me.

I'm impatiently awaiting the icenetwork article about the new rules for next season. Apparently there will be one less lift allowed, and teams will be able to do either a choreographic lift or a choreographic spin, so it looks like the people who complain ice dance has become too much about lifts and acrobatics have got their wish...

Click to expand...

M/C have been Juniors nationally for four years already, so if it was easy for Dance to do Senior nationally and Junor internationally I could see them doing that

Will thie video of Hawayek/Baker performance be posted online do you think? I'd really like to see it...

Jean Luc Baker is beginning to remind me a bit of Gorsha Sur. Maybe that's not new, but I just noticed it.

Free Dance is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqTil6nSmmw

I'm sure Mao will have all of them up soon.

A.H.Black said:

Jean Luc Baker is beginning to remind me a bit of Gorsha Sur. Maybe that's not new, but I just noticed it.

Free Dance is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqTil6nSmmw

I'm sure Mao will have all of them up soon.

Click to expand...

Thank you!!!!!! They were really good! I'm excited to see how they shape up from here on out.

Hawayek & Baker showed very nice skating, they improved since last season. If they are 1,5 year together only, it is not visible at all. They have great coach team around, choreography is great too, programs skated like one whole dance. A couple had nice technique, probably he can do some steps more easily than Kaitlin but edges are equivalent by both. In SD Jean-Luc was more expressive than Kaitlin who was nice but too decent for the music in my opinion. In FD overall expression in first part is nice, but the couple looked pale for me in the second part when music started to be more dynamic and faster - the couple is young, so it is nothing too bad for juniors yet.

As to height and weight difference – I agree with those who don’t care about it, great dancers are not defined by height and their dancing qualities don’t suffer with small height difference. The only problem can be “visual“ (but I still prefer great dancers in front of those Hollowood looking Brad Pitt - Anjelina Jolie couples or pair couple looking ones, with this way of thinking there would be no Tessa & Scott, Denkova & Staviski, Faiella & Scali, Hubbell & Donohue and many others and couples like Comes & Buckland and Chock & Bates would stay like almost the only dancers in a field…that is a nonsense). And second problem can be in performing acrobatic lifts…but it is choreographer and coach’s work to find suitable lifts which will be the couple able to execute and it will be still level 4 in the same moment.

Personally what I don’t like on this couple are those almost “wrestling“ gestures made by Kaitlin after both SD and FD. I understand that a girl is happy, but when she creates an image of elegant, modest and fragile lady in both dances and immediately after finishing program she starts to behave like hockey-player…I would simply save those gestures for clothing room, because such gestures destroy whole expression from dance.

I am curious what will US judges do next year with this couple in seniors. I still overall prefer Hubbell & Donohue like the best US couple (without D&W of course), but H&B have better technique than Chock & Bates and their dances looks better than Chock & Bates‘ programs, which creates more an idea of sticking together all the elements in my eyes.

Yanovskaya & Mozgov – the couple had great expression and dancy program expecially in SD, in FD they were very good and quite expressive, but last dynamic music part was above them. No matter how levels and components looked like, in “dancing“ I would put them ahead of Americans (especially thanks to SD). I read sooner this season that a couple plans to stay in juniors for one more year, I think it is a good idea.

caitie said:

I'm impatiently awaiting the icenetwork article about the new rules for next season. Apparently there will be one less lift allowed, and teams will be able to do either a choreographic lift or a choreographic spin, so it looks like the people who complain ice dance has become too much about lifts and acrobatics have got their wish...

Click to expand...

It would be a great idea of having only 4 lifts instead of 5 lifts (combination lift like 2 lifts) in senior FD. I would do even more, I would keep 2 lifts or 1 combination lift with commom levels and other 2 lifts would be choreo only with 0,20 base value. It would help to concentrate more on dancing, coming with lifts which really expresses music or story (like it was always in past) and only two lifts or one combination lift would have had all requirements which are hardly connected to dancing.

While I understand that twizzles, step sequences and spin are connected with good skating skills and interpretation to music, lifts are mostly acrobatic thing, where skating skills are not basic, it also give a big advantage to small and think girls. But small and thin doesn’t mean great skilled and dancy. Having less points for acrobatic lifts would also decrease a number of acrobatic couples on high places and yes…it would be less dangerous.

I took points and GOE for lifts from Olympics FD and counted how many percents does it take from technical score. The result is surprising…
D&W – 39,86 %
V&M – 40,02 %
P&B – 40,50 %
I&K – 41,94 %
W&P – 42,47 %
C&L – 42,80 %
B&S – 43,87 % (having level 4 in twizzles, it would be 42,99 %)
Coomes & Buckland – 44,62 %
Carron & Jones – 45,17 %
Kolbe & Caruso – 46,11 %
Obrien & Merriman - 47,65 %
Tobias & Stagniunas – 49,12 %

Too high overall technical mark means less percentage for lifts. First two couples go around 40 %, P&B got worse marks than I&K for lifts and overall marks was worse too, but percents were 40,50 % only. Five couples from top 7 got from 42 to 43,87 %. Then with less great couples a percentage starts to increase and Tobias gets almost 50% of technical mark for lifts. Comparing points and GOE for lifts between Tobias and Virtue, the difference is only 2,92 points, which is ridiculous when we talk about dancing couples and we all know what is a real difference between those two couples. It support the idea that acrobatic high leveled lifts had nothing to do with great skating skills…why is it marked so high then?

Having seen H&D, C&B and S&S live at US Nationals, at that event H&D were significantly inferior, particularly to Chock & Bates. I expect the new rule to help H&D, ...maybe, but their skating skills are not up to either C&B nor S&S, and it's not just speed. It's a lack of tidiness/crispness...plus noisier blades.

Yeah, I didn't think H&D deserved to be higher than C&B or S&S at Nationals... but that team definitely has some sort of je ne sais quoi it-factor for me, and I really liked both of their programs and I like them.

Personally what I don’t like on this couple are those almost “wrestling“ gestures made by Kaitlin after both SD and FD. I understand that a girl is happy, but when she creates an image of elegant, modest and fragile lady in both dances and immediately after finishing program she starts to behave like hockey-player…I would simply save those gestures for clothing room, because such gestures destroy whole expression from dance.

Click to expand...

This is so old-fashioned to me... but I actually had the same thought when they finished. I remember thinking wow, that's probably not what the judges want to see. The post-performance moments on the ice always feel like part of the performance, and you have to bow to the judges, then the audience, etc. But I wish behaving like an athlete thrilled with your performance was acceptable, because like a hockey player, Kaitlyn is an athlete, and this prim and proper image of ladies in figure skating is so antiquated and boring to me. I like seeing that kind of excitement and Ashley Wagner's fist pumping, etc.

Anyway, I'm excited to see what H/B do next and how they handle a latin program, which we haven't seen them do together yet. I really loved their free dance music from the last two years (songs from Singing In The Rain and now Amelie) so I'm hoping that means they have good taste and I'll continue to like their choices!

dorispulaski said:

Having seen H&D, C&B and S&S live at US Nationals, at that event H&D were significantly inferior, particularly to Chock & Bates. I expect the new rule to help H&D, ...maybe, but their skating skills are not up to either C&B nor S&S, and it's not just speed. It's a lack of tidiness/crispness...plus noisier blades.

Click to expand...

Skating Skills:
Criteria:
•Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
•Flow and effortless glide
•Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
•Power/energy and acceleration
•Mastery of multi-directional skating
•Mastery of one foot skating
•Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison

I re-watched C&B and H&D FD (talking about SD it would be even longer and for talking about skating skills – FD is longer and thanks to two step sequences in holds more suitable), but this is really of topic. Once again I was influenced by depth of edges and difficulty of programs, while I always appreciate more difficult programs and I also think that skating difficult programs you have to own bigger abilities then those who prefer more easy programs (looking at choreo, not elements parts…all couples from top 20 tries to achieve level 4 elements, so this stops to be interesting when elements are sooo difficult that even couple on 20th place at Olympics is able to make all lifts levels 4 – so it is probably not so difficult and demanding, but I always expect that top couples will do elements and programs which are not-top couples not capable of).

Zachary had around 38 forward and back cross-overs (he is tall but surprisingly he does very think crossovers – in comparison with Nikita it is big difference – wide crossovers always look more elegant), Evan did around 48 cross-overs, both ladies had lesser number.
Re-watching those programs few times…Thanks you so much Krylova, Camerlengo and all team who helped with choreography for NON JUMPING FD, I appreciate it so much (Zachary had only one minor jump during diagonal step sequence). I start to be frightened that so many dancers are doing jumping exercises as much as possible (I&K are already doing throw jump in SD…now only twist and death spiral and it would be complete pair cathegory).
I had to watch C&B twice to count all those bigger jumps, small jumps, partly lifts…25 jumps and I didn’t count jumps into a real lifts – it would be about 3 jumps more. Jumps and cross-overs are making skater‘s life easier – it helps to easily increase speed and jumps protect from changing an edge – you simply jump and you can turn about 180 degree on the air and skate in another direction with better speed, while you have to change direction about 180 degree with help of edge – you put yourself into danger that you will loose some speed (and you need better knee action for making it well). Overall C&B have plenty of cross-overs and helping jumps to increase speed and they really have quite good speed. H&D were really slow at US Nationals, partly because of much more difficult choreo than C&B had but also partly to a fact that they sometimes get more on toe pick which make that noise and makes them slower – this is a mistake, they should balance their blades better. At C&B‘s FD I saw beautiful lifts, but I didn’t see anything difficult beside it in non element parts. H&D had some more difficult and difficult moments in non element parts, but I agree once again that they were slow. But difficulty in programs is not a part of skating skills content suprisingly althought it affects execution of all steps a lot.

I watched skates and blades only – Madison with Zachary had deeper edges than Madison with Evan…and Evan himself - I never noticed it before but he also not extends his free leg even more than Ilinykh and Andrew Poje, he very often doesn’t look so sure on his skates and he is overall poorer technician than Madison.

Coming back to criterias for skating skills: deeper edges goes to H&D, more sureness goes to half pair of C&B and in comparison with Evan to whole pair of H&D. Flow and effortless glide goes to Madison C., but not to Evan B. (this is not very fair to Madison H…talking about effortness – if girls would be in same body shape, than we would be able to compare effortness looking at skating skills only, but comparing effortness when one Madison is much more similar to Meryl and second Madison is like Kaitlyn Osmond‘s body shape, it is not only skating skills what is playing a role in this thing…you can also compare Nikita Katsalapov with Jean-Luc Baker and you can try to gues who would have more effortness skating – it wouldn’t be Nikita). Acceleration of power goes to C&B, but we have to confess that many jumps and cross-overs in their FD help a lot (while H&D have steps and moments in choreo where they can’t increase speed – like that beautiful moments when Madison lays on Zachary‘s leg and they are doing arcs – there is no way how to increase speed in it, you can only not to loose speed). Mastery of one foot skating – more about H&D. Multidirectional skating – I didn’t especially watch this thing, but I suppose that both couples can skate in different directions (definitely Madison and Evan can jump in every corner of stadium, but Evan only skating forward, while Madison also jumps skating backwords). Equal mastery by technique of both – this is not good fof Madison C. and Evan, they are not equal and the difference in technique is still big. Knee action – Madison and Evan don’t have very good knee action, they are far to deep knees, sometimes their knee’s work is fluent but Evan is sotimes stiff. Madison H. with Zachary had deeper knee’s action and fluent on the level of fluent Madison C.

So, my way of view is that H&D are better technicians in comparison with C&B, but I must say that sitting on the stadium and watching skaters live, it creates a different image sometimes, no almost always. Especially music and costumes plays bigger role than on YouTube – in this case I would point C&B ahead. Watching competition live I always watched skaters like a whole package (I didn’t have time even wish to concentrate on blades only) and sometimes when I re-watched the same programs later and started to concentrate on details, I changed my opinion then.

Watching US Nationals live and sitting on tribunes, maybe I would be also persuaded that H&D were so slow that they couldn’t be technically better then C&B, but I am watching YouTube and comparing all things which ISU judging system takes into account and some things which I take like important… I stay on my opinion that even skating slower, H&D are better technicians that C&B. But looking at final scores I realise that judges share your opinion, Doris.

Sisinka, it isn't an opinion that I expected to have when I went to nationals. People have raved so much about H&D, I expected them to be better live than on TV. I expected the Shibs to be the amazing kids I saw in 2011 in Greensboro. I had never seen C&B live. WHAT a shock! I had no problem seeing C&B as closer to D&W than to either of the other two teams. H&D were slow. They seemed to be pulling at each other a bit. Nothing was particularly effortless. They weren't that steady on the blade because of the pulling. And they weren't' that great in timing either. I don't care as much about how few steps you use so long as those steps are on the beat. Theirs weren't always. If I were to pick a single adjective for their skating, it would be untidy.

C&B's connection to the audience, to their music, and to their performance in general was shockingly excellent.

Their size difference still messes a bit with their knee action; and they have not been together that long; I hope this will improve. But overall, at Nationals they were not just slightly better; they were on another level.

dorispulaski said:

Sisinka, it isn't an opinion that I expected to have when I went to nationals. People have raved so much about H&D, I expected them to be better live than on TV. I expected the Shibs to be the amazing kids I saw in 2011 in Greensboro. I had never seen C&B live. WHAT a shock! I had no problem seeing C&B as closer to D&W than to either of the other two teams. H&D were slow. They seemed to be pulling at each other a bit. Nothing was particularly effortless. They weren't that steady on the blade because of the pulling. And they weren't' that great in timing either. I don't care as much about how few steps you use so long as those steps are on the beat. Theirs weren't always. If I were to pick a single adjective for their skating, it would be untidy.

C&B's connection to the audience, to their music, and to their performance in general was shockingly excellent.

Their size difference still messes a bit with their knee action; and they have not been together that long; I hope this will improve. But overall, at Nationals they were not just slightly better; they were on another level.

Click to expand...

Yes, height difference can be problematic in this aspect.
I hope that all teams will work hard and we will be surprised by improvement seen from them next season.

Yes, that is exactly what I hope. H&D were coping with Madison's recovery, so I hope they will look better next time I see them. And I hope that C&B continue to improve at the same rate.

sky_fly20 said:

No problem there, M/C are eligible again next season in the junior circuit
the rest of the top 5 have to move up to seniors because of the new age rule

Click to expand...

Are you sure about this? I thought under the new rules both Y/M and E/P will remain jr eligible.

Anyway, congrats to the medalists thought they all did great.

I loved all the top 3 FDs (didn't watch any others), especially Edwards/Pang. Maybe they'll be the "next ones" in Canada after W/P and maybe P/I and G/P retire.