Selection procedures for ISU judging panels | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Selection procedures for ISU judging panels

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Yes I am aware of that, but is it normal to have the same US judge judge at every single one of Gracie's event including the Olympics? One that see her PCS rise at unprecedented rate? I'd raise my eye brows too due to these statistical anomalies.

While I can perhaps understand these judging selection rules made sense 50 years ago when there are less nationalities competing, but I really think by today's standard, it is hopelessly outdated. This not only disadvantages any minor federations who doesn't have their own judges in the selection, it also disadvantage any run away leader, since it is natural for all federations to pressure their own 'assigned' judge to repress their chances in the leader the interest of 'spread the wealth'.

I much prefer if judges became an independent professional enterprise separate from their own Federations. IOC draw the judges from a pool of hundreds judges from ALL countries regardless if they are taking part at the Olympics, preferably not under anonymity or federation wrangling.

That is a good point. I think Gracie is improving, but we don't need to be hit over the head with it with inflating her PCS (if this is really going on). it's one thing to see steady growth, but like Adelina, Gracie shouldn't be getting marks she does not deserve. If this is regarding the judging pool and judges are being unfairly assigned, then this should be looked into!
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Before people say that the two judges under scrutiny could not affect the panel enough to make a difference, just note that in her Free Skate, out of Adelina's 33 "3" GOEs she received, a whopping 18 of them came from just two judges!

This is true. However, most of the judges who gave her +3 gave her many. From different judges, she got 10, 8, 6, 5, 3, and 1. So four different judges gave her 5 or more +3. Many of her +3 came from spins, which is typically what the good spinners earn.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
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Aug 31, 2003
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United-States
According to Beverly Smith: Olga Baranova is by all accounts, quite good at her job.

Alla can't judge dance anymore. Alexander Gorshkov stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee and became president of the russian federation. There was the vacancy on the ISU dance tech. com. so she decided to run for it and got the seat.
It meant she could no longer judge ice dancing but she can judge the other disciplines.

http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/more-on-the-womens-controversy/

Oh, but she can REFEREE Ice Dance, or serve as the Ice Dance TECHNICAL CONTROLLER, and she does both!

In addition to her gigs as a judge on the Ladies panels at CoC, TEB, Euros, Olympic team and Olympic Singles events (all the events where Adelina skated) Shekhovstseva Refereed Ice Dance at CoR and was the Ice Dance Technical Controller at 4CC.

She wasn't at JW, where Russia had a judge only for Pairs, but I wouldn't be shocked to see her at Worlds in some capacity.

ETA: I could see why she wouldn't be bothered judging ice dance, as Russia didn't have a possible winning horse in the race this year.
That might change though, now that D/W and V/M have left the building.....
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
How can the conflict of interest be resolved? it's very difficult. To my knowledge they do a lot of training no?

Countries are eligible to have judges at the Olympic Games based on the qualification of their skaters for the ladies, pairs, men’s and ice dance disciplines, as long as the country has an eligible international judge.

Does this mean there are a number of spots for the judges as well?

It's nearly impossible to get rid of every conflict of interest, but you can put a dent in it by stating that no judge may officiate at any senior international event if they are, or have been within the previous two years, an officer or administrator of a national or regional skating body. This would include the spouses of such individuals. Yes, this would ween the number of eligible judges considerably, but there less than a dozen such events a year. It should be doable with the number of judges available.


Oh, but she can REFEREE Ice Dance, or serve as the Ice Dance TECHNICAL CONTROLLER, and she does both!

In addition to her gigs as a judge on the Ladies panels at CoC, TEB, Euros, Olympic team and Olympic Singles events (all the events where Adelina skated) Shekhovstseva Refereed Ice Dance at CoR and was the Ice Dance Technical Controller at 4CC.

She wasn't at JW, where Russia had a judge only for Pairs, but I wouldn't be shocked to see her at Worlds in some capacity.

ETA: I could see why she wouldn't be bothered judging ice dance, as Russia didn't have a possible winning horse in the race this year.
That might change though, now that D/W and V/M have left the building.....

Seems like Alla is a busy lady at premium events, considering the number of eligible judges. To me, it seems that there would have to be better qualified singles judges in Russia (as she is mostly known for her work in ice dance officiating). How was she selected to be part of the pool? Oh yeah... her husband.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
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Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
There are 9 other ISU-qualified judges who could have been selected for the Ladies panels on which Mme Piseev served. My guess is the Russian federation didn't trust the other 9 judges to score Sotnikova correctly.....And that only serves to underscore the ruminations of Vassily Solovyov in another thread on this forum, where he comments on the buildup of Sot's PCS scores throughout the season culminating in a huge boost at Sochi. One also has to wonder how much influence Mme Piseev's presence on so many panels wields on other judges...

Incidentally, note that the infamous Yuri BALKOV not only turned up on the Olympic ladies panel, but he was also on the JGPF Ice Dance panel and on the Junior Worlds Ice Dance panel this past week. He gets around quite a bit, too.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
ETA: I could see why she wouldn't be bothered judging ice dance, as Russia didn't have a possible winning horse in the race this year.

It's not that she doesn't bother. She can not be a judge in ice dance anymore. You're naive if you think that for Russia was not important to win bronze.


@capcomeback

It's nearly impossible to get rid of every conflict of interest, but you can put a dent in it by stating that no judge may officiate at any senior international event if they are, or have been within the previous two years, an officer or administrator of a national or regional skating body. This would include the spouses of such individuals

What about those individuals who are not married to Fed Presidents, or vice presidents, but are actually holding these official position themselves?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
This is a bit OT: But isn't there judges roundtables where judges meet with the skaters. I always hear to skaters referring to the "feedback" they get from judges. At first I thought it was protocols, but then I started noticing "judge's roundtables" on the schedule at GPs and Worlds.

Couldn't the media have a similar roundtable where they can ask judge questions about the protocols?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
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Then there are the tech panels. I find it very questionable that Katalin ALPERN is so often picked to Referee or sit as the Technical Controller on Ice Dance panels that are considered important.

She was the GPF Ice Dance Referee.
She was the Ice Dance Technical Controller at CoR (Alla Shekhovtseva was the Referee)
She was the Olympic Ice Dance Referee, both Team and Singles
She was the JW Ice Dance Referee

Alpern is supposedly from ISR but in Soviet times, she judged for Hungary
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is a bit OT: But isn't there judges roundtables where judges meet with the skaters. I always hear to skaters referring to the "feedback" they get from judges. At first I thought it was protocols, but then I started noticing "judge's roundtables" on the schedule at GPs and Worlds.

As far as I know, that refers to a debriefing between the judges and the referee, without skaters, press, or public in attendance.

I do know that at Worlds the ice dance technical committee has (sometimes?) held meetings open to skaters and press.
I did manage to attend the one at 1998 Worlds by signing in as press. It wasn't about dissecting the event just concluded though -- it was an introduction to the next year's OD (now short dance) and general discussion about issues with the venue, with scoring rules, etc.

I don't know whether singles/pairs has ever done the same thing.

Skaters may get feedback from judges in their own federation through formal monitoring processes, or less formally from judges that they set up private monitoring sessions. Some club competitions in the US offer critiques by selected officials on the panel to any skater who signs up in advance.

Couldn't the media have a similar roundtable where they can ask judge questions about the protocols?

I think this would be good if the goal was communication and education.

If it started out with journalists witch hunting judges, assuming every decision they disagree with must be corrupt until proven otherwise, it would not help really explain the judging and would only make the ISU more defensive.

So I'd say format it in a way to allow the officials to explain their thought processes in as much detail as they feel necessary. Let that become the norm. Audiences and journalists would learn more and be able to ask better questions.

Start it in a post-Olympic year, so by the time the next Olympics rolls around there would already be some goodwill between well-meaning journalists and well-meaning officials. Hopefully there would be no scandals at the next Olympics. But if officials do try to manipulate results, journalists could do a better job of investigating if they have a better idea of which results are questionable and which are just unpopular.
 

chuckm

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It's not that she doesn't bother. She can not be a judge in ice dance anymore. You're naive if you think that for Russia was not important to win bronze.

This was corrected in an earlier post. Alla Shekhovtseva can sit on an ice dance panel, but no more than two in a competition year. She apparently feels she can spread her influence around quite a bit more by judging ladies AND refereeing and/or techcontrolling ice dance. Note that judges aren't allowed to sit on more than two GP panels. Alla sat on both Adelina's GP events and on the GPF. And on Euros. And on Olympics. But there's no RUS judge on the ladies panel at Worlds, so maybe that's why Adelina isn't competing there.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I think this would be good if the goal was communication and education.

If it started out with journalists witch hunting judges, assuming every decision they disagree with must be corrupt until proven otherwise, it would not help really explain the judging and would only make the ISU more defensive.

So I'd say format it in a way to allow the officials to explain their thought processes in as much detail as they feel necessary. Let that become the norm. Audiences and journalists would learn more and be able to ask better questions.

Start it in a post-Olympic year, so by the time the next Olympics rolls around there would already be some goodwill between well-meaning journalists and well-meaning officials. Hopefully there would be no scandals at the next Olympics. But if officials do try to manipulate results, journalists could do a better job of investigating if they have a better idea of which results are questionable and which are just unpopular.


All this!

I find that 99 percent of the time, the media is not looking for a witch hunt, contrary to what some may think. It only becomes a witch hunt because they are confused and are searching for answers (i.e. grasping for straws).

Here's what I think could happen; make it sort of like speed dating. You have each of the judges at a table. Then you have groups of media (I'd say 3-5 reporters each) and allow them 15 minutes with each judge. The first 5 minutes can be an introduction by the judge and opening remarks than 10 minutes for questions from the reporters.

Then there could be a point person for the judges who can field additional questions after the speed dating or to arrange follow-up interviews.

But I agree, building relationships is key. I think even the act of offering a roundtable/speed dating session makes a big difference and I believe that both sides would benefit.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Of course, many news outlets send sports reporters to cover Olympics who never cover any other figure skating events, so Olympics will still have the problem of media being confused and grasping for straws.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Of course, many news outlets send sports reporters to cover Olympics who never cover any other figure skating events, so Olympics will still have the problem of media being confused and grasping for straws.

Still there are opportunities....if the ISU is intent (which it may or may not be) in assuring fair and accurate coverage it should put some priority in reaching out to media. IF anything, perhaps the question of why media don't go to other ISU events is worth asking.

Chances are a majority of media outlets don't because of money. They save all their international travel for hte big events. So perhaps ISU could provide a feed to their live stream.

Again, relationship building.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
They are chosen according to this criteria: 1) delusion, 2) stupidity, 3) subjectivity, 4) malleability, 5) emotional weakness, 6) corruptibility
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
This was corrected in an earlier post. Alla Shekhovtseva can sit on an ice dance panel, but no more than two in a competition year. She apparently feels she can spread her influence around quite a bit more by judging ladies AND refereeing and/or techcontrolling ice dance. Note that judges aren't allowed to sit on more than two GP panels. Alla sat on both Adelina's GP events and on the GPF. And on Euros. And on Olympics. But there's no RUS judge on the ladies panel at Worlds, so maybe that's why Adelina isn't competing there.

Well, I don't know about that. It's pure speculation.
 

Hevari

Drivers start your engines!
On the Ice
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
First of all - judges must be independent from their federations... Maybe it should be something kinda PSA for coaches in USA - some independent worldwide FS judges/tech spec association...

Second - all judges panels MUST be disclosed 2-3 days before the first day of competition (like in Formula One where stewards panel line-up is published a couple days before the Grand-Prix starts, or like in Soccer, handball and so on).

Third - allow and oblige judges to talk with media before and after event via press-conference (like the one that skaters have).

Fourth - for all biased judgement or anything like this - lifetime ban from all judging activities. Because it's a shame that a man like Yuri Balkov can still judge after two bans (and judge events like JGP Final and same level and higher)... And he has not changed - I know this because he is from my country...
 
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