Wagner and Suzuki underscored? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Wagner and Suzuki underscored?

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
You know this is the nth thread you've created about Ashley and you're going to get the same answers. She's all-round good but it's just not enough. She probably has hit her scoring ceiling and now that she's no longer the US #1 she's not going to be propped up as she has been. Her scores at Sochi were probably about right. She could have finished at most 1 place higher. Concerning her PCS, she doesn't have the greatest programs, skating skills, transitions, and her peformances come across as put on to me, like she's knows that it's lacking but then looks like she's trying too hard. I think Akiko getting low-balled on PCS has a lot to do with her inconsistency.

I don't think she has necessarily hit her ceiling but she needs to expand and grow - develop. Seh can still develop more difficult and consistent combos as well as spins. And artisitcally there is huge room for her to grow. As for suzuki I think part of the problem whil she is lovely to watch she doesn't stand out really - sort of like Ashley. Not to b mean but not everyone sticks out like Cohen, Baiul, even Bobek - not perfect but they had something that kept you mesmorized. Both Akiko and Ashley also are not no. 1 in their countries - but if Ashley wins a medal and Gold doesn't watch that change lol.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
She tries too hard. I think she knows she is not as talented as the other top skaters, so needs to make up for it with effort. However in the performance she gives a little too much.
That's the feeling I always get from Ashley. When Kim/Asada/Kostner skate, it doesn't look like they're trying excessively hard. Occasionally each one of them has small choreographic moments that make me go :confused: or :disapp: but it never looks forced and as patently artificial as many parts of Wagner's programs. It may be harsh, but like I said before, Wagner wishes she was a fierce, confident diva except she doesn't have enough of the talent to back it up.
 

Mista Ekko

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Ashley is my girl !

Her jumps are good enough (hopefully she'll master the 3\3)
Her spins are fine (Layback with arms in classic position)
And her consistency is key,

I feel like the one thing that could really get her programs to spark is an explosive energetic footwork sequence !
She always seems like she's hardly getting through it slowly, It brings down the whole performance and gives an unsure vibe, like she might fall if she gives it more (A la worlds 2013).

Suzuki has the goods, including good flowing step sequences, But her last two FS's didn't suit her at all IMO,
Phantom of the opera? :\
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
^ I for one appreciate your faith and love for Ashley. I'm fairly critical of Ashley at times but I wish the best for her and her fans. It's nice to see enthusiasm on this board. Hopefully it's contagious!:bow:
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Ashley is my girl !

Her jumps are good enough (hopefully she'll master the 3\3)
Her spins are fine (Layback with arms in classic position)
And her consistency is key,

I feel like the one thing that could really get her programs to spark is an explosive energetic footwork sequence !
She always seems like she's hardly getting through it slowly, It brings down the whole performance and gives an unsure vibe, like she might fall if she gives it more (A la worlds 2013).

Suzuki has the goods, including good flowing step sequences, But her last two FS's didn't suit her at all IMO,
Phantom of the opera? :\

Really? I loved Akiko's FS the last two seasons, especially "O". The choreographic sequence is to die for.

Ashley's spins used to be quite nice but they've deteriorated in speed and position. I assume probably due to her focus on the 3-3 this season and coaching change. In a classic layback the free foot has to be parallel to the ice. Ashley now lets it drop and point down. Sorry but I have a fixation with laybacks caused by years of Dick Button's commentary. As for the 3-3, it's really hard the up the technical content at her age. She's not comparable to Carolina Kostner who always had the ability to do the big combos but had issues with nerves and injuries.
 

juppiter

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Wagner was not underscored. Perhaps other skaters who fell were overscored in comparison to her considering she did not fall, but both of her programs were shaky. She did not deserve to be on the podium.
 

amc987

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Wagner was not underscored. Perhaps other skaters who fell were overscored in comparison to her considering she did not fall, but both of her programs were shaky. She did not deserve to be on the podium.

I agree with this. But I think Gold and Lipnitskaya were way way overscored for the programs they did. No way Yulia and Gracie should've been over 128 with falls. Yulia got 135 and Gracie got 136. The only bigger mess, as almost every other sane person has mentioned, was Adelina's score.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Wagner was not underscored. Perhaps other skaters who fell were overscored in comparison to her considering she did not fall, but both of her programs were shaky. She did not deserve to be on the podium.

I agree with this. But I think Gold and Lipnitskaya were way way overscored for the programs they did. No way Yulia and Gracie should've been over 128 with falls. Yulia got 135 and Gracie got 136. The only bigger mess, as almost every other sane person has mentioned, was Adelina's score.

Basically my thoughts in a nutshell. It wasn't that Wagner was underscored...it's that skaters who fell were overscored and placed above her.

I also agree with the poster who suggested that she tries too hard at times. That said, I think Wagner should keep attacking her programs...but I think with more experience with the program she'll settle into it more and it won't look quite so forced. In fact, that was my biggest beef with her Black Swan program.
 

NYscorp6

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Country
United-States
I would like to see Ashley return to Phillip Mills. He seems to know how to create programs that suite her. I know he was kind of sketchy with his tweeting when she chose to go with Shea Lynn Bourne and David Wilson, but I'm hoping she goes back to him. Loved her Swan Lake and Sampson programs. I am hoping she changes the entrance to her flip as well, I don't think it helps the 3T when she picks off at that angle.

Personally I believe this is the last thing she should do. Ashley's season started well but the pressure was on and she folded @ US Nationals. Then she panicked and went back to Sampson & Delilah, only it was too late. It also sent a bad message and lack of confidence in herself to the judges. There was no way she was going to medal in the individual event. If she wants to improve she should try to push the envelope not look backwards. I believe the judges would respect that and respond more favorably.
 

desertskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I don't think it was too late to return to S&D. I do wish she'd done it sooner. I posted somewhere else that I'd read when R&J was first proposed to her she thought "no way". She should have gone with her gut. I think she'll get her 3-3, but I'm not sure about this flip backed into a corner thing. And the flying back sit can be improved. It used to be faster. And I think she needs another position in there, perhaps rising from sit into a "Y" or something like that.
I wish her the best. Worlds will say a lot, and what she comes out with for next year will say even more.
 

Selene

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
I don't think Ashley was underscored at the Olympics. Other skaters may have fallen, but Ashley had numerous mistakes that added up. She had many two-footed jumps, an underrotation call, and an edge call. Those errors all diminished her GOE. With all of those mistakes, I didn't understand why she was so happy after her performance, and I knew her score wouldn't be that high. Her placement was fair, given her lack of technical content compared to the skaters who placed above her.

Ashley is my girl !

Her jumps are good enough (hopefully she'll master the 3\3)
Her spins are fine (Layback with arms in classic position)
And her consistency is key,

I feel like the one thing that could really get her programs to spark is an explosive energetic footwork sequence !
She always seems like she's hardly getting through it slowly, It brings down the whole performance and gives an unsure vibe, like she might fall if she gives it more (A la worlds 2013).

Suzuki has the goods, including good flowing step sequences, But her last two FS's didn't suit her at all IMO,
Phantom of the opera? :\

Ashley is 22-years-old. If she hasn't mastered the 3-3 combo by now, she's very unlikely to do so in the future. At this stage in her career, it's probably something her body doesn't have the capability to perform on a consistent basis.

Her spins are slow and the positions are pretty weak, but that's okay if she can get all of her levels.

She doesn't have the skating skills to perform an explosive, level 4 step sequence. Her step sequences are labored precisely because she doesn't have the edge quality/skating skills of the top skaters.

Compared to the top skaters, Ashley is limited technically. She's been very overrated for a while, and I suspect she will retire without ever winning a medal at the World Championships. I suspect she could even be the third-placed American at this upcoming World Championship. She is being surpassed by young skaters who have superior technical abilities.
 

Olympic

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think Suzuki was overscored in the LP at Sochi. She's lovely, normally, but the score was a tad high for her sloppy program.

I'm not sure about whether Ashley was underscored or someone like Julia was overscored. But, they should've been much closer together in the standings IMO.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
It's odd the way Ashley seems to peak early in the season and then falter by the time Nationals comes around. She has always done pretty well on the Grand Prix and the last three seasons, she has made the finals and landed on the podium. The one exception to her post-Grand Prix slide was in 2012, when she won Nationals going away and beat Mao at Four Continents. Maybe that was her career peak. But I do think that Ashley skates with a lot of spark and when she is on, really sells her programs. Too bad she doesn't get credit for it.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I feel Wagner peaked 2 years ago, and that her best days are behind her...but for some reason I think it would be a mistake to write her off now. How many thought she was done after 2011?

ETA: Wagner's only hope is to regain the consistency she had a couple of years ago. That's the only way she can hope to outlast the young ones coming up the ranks. In a weaker field she could definitely still contend for the podium (the past two years, the field has been UNBELIEVABLY deep). This year and next year are good chances for her...probably not as good as the one she had in 2012 but definitely the best she's had since then.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Wagner was not underscored. Perhaps other skaters who fell were overscored in comparison to her considering she did not fall, but both of her programs were shaky. She did not deserve to be on the podium.

I don't think anyone would disagree that she deserves to be off the podium. She was scored appropriately on PCS, except for the fact that those who placed above her were massively overscored on their PCS -- particularly Gold (getting considerably higher PCS with a fall, compared to her clean team FS), Lipnitskaia (getting higher PCS than Asada, and considerably higher PCS with a fall and stepout than her clean team event FS), and Sotnikova (getting the same PCS as Kim).

She's only write-offable because of the depth of talent that's coming out of Russia, and even in the US. She's not a bad skater by any means.

It's like some people forget that she won a GP event (and a silver) and was 3rd at the GPF this year. Not that it necessarily means anything seeing as how Mao was 1st, Julia was 2nd and Sotnikova came 5th, which essentially went topsy turvy in Sochi.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I don't think Ashley is too old to perfect her 3/3. I think she needs a good jump coach. I don't know much about Artunian but it seems to me like Ashley started "slipping" when John Nicks decided to retire.

Yes Gracie fell but so did Hanyu!!! And a lot of other skaters. I think Gracie is the real deal. She's only been on the senior scene for what, 2 years? Before people pass judgement on her - wait until this coming season is over and see where she is then. Watching junior girls at Nats this year and then seeing the dismal placement of our junior girls at Jr. Worlds, I really think our hopes for the future lie with the 3 that went to the Olys. Karen Chen is not ready. Amber Glenn is athletic but not polished. Rather than tear Gracie and Ashely up one side and down the other, maybe some should throttle it back just a titch. I personally think Gracie will best them all!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think Gracie is the real deal too, and stands a greater potential chance at success than Ashley, but she has yet to skate a clean competition or have any international wins, so I'm tentatively optimistic about her chances.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
I think Gracie is the real deal too, and stands a greater potential chance at success than Ashley, but she has yet to skate a clean competition or have any international wins, so I'm tentatively optimistic about her chances.

Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.

There is a key difference, however. Ashley Wagner was never hyped up to the level Gracie was. Nor does Ashley have the natural talent Gracie has either.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well exactly how many wins did Ashley have before she won Nationals in 2012? It took her almost 5 years to win any kind of event after she turned Senior while Gracie already is National champion in only her second try.

I don't think success on an earlier or later attempt really matters, otherwise you could argue that Mirai did one better than Gracie and got the 2008 US National title on her FIRST try, but failed to win any event afterwards except for 2011 Nebelhorn.

Also, when you become National Champion doesn't necessarily indicate success as it took Cohen 6 years before winning Nationals, even though she had a slew of medals including golds and a GPF win.

Taking Gold as an absolute, I don't think her being a National champion necessarily translates into future success, although she is far more consistent now than she was earlier in the season and seems to finally have mental fortitude across both segments of the competition. I do think though that her PCS marks were far too high, especially when she essentially skated a clean FS in the team event and yet that somehow gets her 6 points less PCS than the individual FS where she fell. I can only imagine Frank did some major politicking/complaining for her. Instead of bringing Julia's PCS back down to earth (which would have been impossible since she actually got higher PCS with a fall than a clean skate), he must have reached some compromise where Gold would get a boost to her PCS.
 
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