Are Spins Underscored and Undervalued in Figure Skating?

mskater93 said:

GOAT=Greatest of All Time

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Sheesh, I stand corrected!

kwanatic said:

I think Ashley has a better layback and more positions and I like her flying sit spin too. ITA, Kexin is better than both (the list wasn't necessarily in order). And yes, I meant Brooklee Han...don't know why I put Lee . She's a lovely spinner.

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Oh no, I supplied Kexin because I was agreeing that Kostner still wouldn't be a top 10 spinner despite my opinion that Kostner has better spins than Ashley. Her layback is better but I feel her flying spin is only equal to Kostner's (Ashley has slightly better speed, Kostner has better centering) but Caro's combination spin is better with more flow, balance of positions/rotations, centering and also her jump change foot is better. This puts them as equal spinners, but I disagree about Ashley having more positions, considering Caro does two change combinations spins to supplement for not doing a layback, which is more difficult and requires a wider range of positions.

I do feel Kexin's spins aren't quite as crisp as they were in the 2011-2012 season, namely Cup of China. Back then they were , now they're only pretty good. Elene G. used to have very good spins minus the layback, now they're all a little weak.

pangtongfan said:

Elene G. isnt as strong in any aspect of skating as she used to be. I honestly wonder what she is still doing out there at times, although atleast it hasnt reached Suguri level insanity yet.

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She's 24, there's still time! I don't care if I'm being hopelessly deluded!

pangtongfan said:

You are but that is ok. It is what fans are there for.

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#pray4korobeynikova, I think I have a better hope with Elene.

pangtongfan said:

I must admit I never found Wagner a particularly good spinner.

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I don't think she's a good spinner but she's solid. Better than overall than Yu-Na (Yu-Na has better speed but weaker positions) and slightly better than Carolina but not by too much. I think Ashley's flexibility is better but I do agree with zambonistep about Carolina's combo spins. Ashley used to be a stronger spinner but since going to Nicks and then RA, she's not as good as she once was. That's an area I'd like to see her work on if she's going to continue to compete.

zamboni step said:

I do feel Kexin's spins aren't quite as crisp as they were in the 2011-2012 season, namely Cup of China. Back then they were , now they're only pretty good. Elene G. used to have very good spins minus the layback, now they're all a little weak.

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Kexin's spins were a little faster back in 2011-2012 but they are still good position wise. I love her layback and donut/twist spin. Elene G.'s spins still have decent speed but they're a little sloppy now.

^ I think kwanatic values positioning over speed when it comes to evaluating spins.

I value speed/centering slightly over positioning, but all of them are important.

Regardless of who has a reputation for better spins, it's surprising which skaters with a reputation for being good spinners made mistakes at the Olympics. Zijun Li at her best is a terrific spinner--but she got a level B (basic) spin in the SP at the Olympics, and lost numerous levels in the FS. Ashley Wagner got a level 2 on her flying sit in the FS. Mao Asada botched her flying camel spin in the FS (first position was totally wonky) and I'm surprised she didn't lose a level on that. She also lost a level on a spin in the SP. Kostner's final combo spins in both her SP and her FS were not well done, period. Kim's layback this season was the weakest it has ever been, but she had better speed on it than Kostner and she didn't drop a level on any of her other spins.

jaylee said:

^ I think kwanatic values positioning over speed when it comes to evaluating spins.

I value speed/centering slightly over positioning, but all of them are important.

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Yeah, positioning is pretty important to me but a pretty position done slowly or a pretty position that travels all over the place isn't worthy of praise IMO. I like Ashley's positioning and her centering isn't terrible. Her speed is average...yet she's always up against fast spinners (Adelina, Gracie, Julia, etc.) so she looks slow by comparison. Like I said, I really hope she works on that.

Yeah, it was shocking to see how many people dropped levels, especially people who had been hitting all of their levels all season long. Spins almost seem like a no-brainer/break in the program but those spins are work and can hurt the scores when everything is close.

skatedreamer said:

Sheesh, I stand corrected!

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Don't feel bad, took me a minute when I first saw it.

pangtongfan said:

IMO Lipnitskaya and Asada are both still better spinners than Sotnikova. Meanwhile Yu Na Kim often got better scores on spins than Mao (unfairly most times) while Sotnikova is allowed way higher,which shows the difference of a judges pet like Adelina and someone who always had to earn every mark they got like Mao.

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Adelina has better speed in her spins than Mao as well as positions that are unique/difficult. That's why she scores higher. Of the Big Three, Mao is the best spinner especially this season. She's always had better positions that Yu-Na IMO, but Yu-Na's spins had so much speed pre-2011. Post-2011 Yu-Na has lost some speed and Mao has actually gained speed in the last two seasons.

Yah, Yuna's spins are still respectable, but they are not the same as her spins during her hey day. Adelina's spins are superior in terms of speed and flexibility. Nevertheless I find Yuna's spins excellent and to belong in top performance category. Especially her centering and balance is second-to-none. Sit, camel, layback are all fantastic. Only spin of hers that I don't like is the final combination spin, when the tired legs become visibly evident. To be honest, though, there are lots ugly final combination spins these days.

pangtongfan said:

I like Mao's spins better than Adelina's as I find the positions much nicer, and I find Adelina's spins travel sometimes. I agree Adelina's speed is better though. I agree on your assessments of Mao's spins vs Kim then and now, and it probably explains why Mao scores better comparatively now, although I found her still underscored comparatively even back then. Kim's spins have definitely declined since her dominating days.

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I think Adelina keeps her spins pretty well centered and has some very difficult positions, very unique ones too. Mao has more aesthetically pleasing spins but they aren't as fast or difficult and the stretch is about the same. Plus Adelina's flying camel is a zillion times better than Mao's.

I like Adelina's contorted camel; even though it's not that pretty, I like it for being unique to her. I love her one-handed Biellmann. I remember when she was a junior she used to attempt a regular Biellmann but her position wasn't that great. When she made the jump to senior she started doing the one-handed one, though it took her a season and a half to get the hang of it. I remember several times where she'd lose speed/balance transitioning up into it and have to bail out. She's been nailing them this season though, keeping her center and not losing speed.

I do think Mao's positions are cleaner and more classic though...

Side note: during the NBC broadcast of the ladies event in Sochi, Scott kept getting on my nerves by saying he'd never seen someone do a one-handed Biellmann. Granted it's not a spin that's as ubiquitous as a regular Biellmann but I'd seen it several times before. Mao used to do it in 2010 and Zijun still does it (at that same competition no less), though hers isn't as good as Adelina's. I just hate it when commentators make dumb remarks like that. Tonia K. did the same thing during nationals by stupidly saying it's rare to see someone do an ina bauer in a program...after she said that no less than 5 skaters did ina bauers in their programs over the course of the night. :sarcasm:

Sometimes commentators should think before they say stuff. When they don't they alert savvy fans to the fact that they don't watch skating outside of the events they commentate.

kwanatic said:

I like Adelina's contorted camel; even though it's not that pretty, I like it for being unique to her. I love her one-handed Biellmann. I remember when she was a junior she used to attempt a regular Biellmann but her position wasn't that great. When she made the jump to senior she started doing the one-handed one, though it took her a season and a half to get the hang of it. I remember several times where she'd lose speed/balance transitioning up into it and have to bail out. She's been nailing them this season though, keeping her center and not losing speed.

I do think Mao's positions are cleaner and more classic though...

Side note: during the NBC broadcast of the ladies event in Sochi, Scott kept getting on my nerves by saying he'd never seen someone do a one-handed Biellmann. Granted it's not a spin that's as ubiquitous as a regular Biellmann but I'd seen it several times before. Mao used to do it in 2010 and Zijun still does it (at that same competition no less), though hers isn't as good as Adelina's. I just hate it when commentators make dumb remarks like that. Tonia K. did the same thing during nationals by stupidly saying it's rare to see someone do an ina bauer in a program...after she said that no less than 5 skaters did ina bauers in their programs over the course of the night. :sarcasm:

Sometimes commentators should think before they say stuff. When they don't they alert savvy fans to the fact that they don't watch skating outside of the events they commentate.

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Adelina's camel variation is great and honestly looks pretty good to me with her body type/natural lines. It works for her, and it's incredibly impressive athletically speaking to have one's body twisted whilst pulling up on an inverted free leg. One thing it could improve on is she could lock her skating knee just a little more, but I can imagine the burn she's already feeling in that position as it is. Just looking at it makes me feel like I'm stretching.

I think Zijun's is better than Adelina's because she loses less speed in the transition from haircutter to biellmann, then again I thin Zijun's layback is stronger than Adelina's. Mao did one handed during the 2006-2007 season too, also Irina Slutskaya and Mirai Nagasu both accidentally did one handed when their hands slipped in past. Scott can be very irritating and honestly has a low standard when it comes to quality of jumps/spirals/speed. How many times has he screeched "NAILED IT!!!" Simply because a skater holds on to a jump, at a standstill. He's described Sasha as fast and i seem to recall him lavishing Kim's spiral sequences with compliments as them being composed of "Perfect positions".

I've just re-watched Yulia's SP performance and was not impressed by her spins. I know she is capable of much better spins, but other than the flexibility and speed during the I-spin there wasn't much to be amazed at. She was not very good at centering and lost balance while changing positions. Layback was OK-ish but still nothing wow-inspiring. That was right after her fall on 3F so that could have been a factor. The final spin also traveled quite a bit for a final-flight standard.

If anyone has access to the SP video, check it out and let me know if I am wrong. I am not saying about judging or her usual ability, just that performance that night.

I miss the spins of the mid 1990's/ pre cop/IJS - fewer convoluted moves, and way fewer "butt" spins! Well done spins deserve as much credit as well done jumps IMHO.

I am more than willing to give Julia the extra points for the spins, which she deserves (when they are not traveling) if they lower the GOEs she gets on the jumps (she does not deserve the same GOEs as Yuna....)

I don't think we need to increase the base value for spins. Obviously all the base values are arbitrary, but I think in relative terms the values are defensible. The issue is GOE. For one thing, just like in step sequences, the level 3 and level 4 GOE should differ. A level 3 layback should not, even if performed beautifully, should not have the same GOE as a level 4. Level 4 spins should have GOE classes of {2.1, 1.4, 0.7} just like triple jumps and level 4 step sequences. But, then judges need to apply GOE correctly according to the guidelines. If the judges used the GOE guidelines, and with the higher GOE values for level 4 spins, then spins would be valued correctly in my viewed. Since I know the thread-starter, Sam-Skwantch, is a fan of Yulia, I'll use her as an illustration. In my estimation, Yulia's final combination spin at Sochi was the only spin in the ladies FS that deserved a +3 (her layback maybe, but if I remember it was slower than usual - I'd have to watch it back). Under my revision, that spin should have gotten her 5.60 points (rather than the 5.00 points it did) whereas Caro's final combination spin should have gotten no GOE at all for 3.50 points. Or consider Wagner's final combination spin which probably meets the +1 GOE requirements for 4.20 point, a 1.4 differential in favor of Yulia. I think a 2.1 point differential between Caro's traveling and poorly controlled level 4 spin and a 1.4 differential for Wagner's respectable, but unremarkable, spin with Yulia's beautiful spin is defensible and appropriate. I just think the GOE awards should be the same for spins and correctly judged - but therein lies the problem! The problem is spins, like everything else, are systematically mis-scored. Many of even the top ladies should be getting +1 at the most (or maybe 1.25-1.5 in an ideal world) and +0 should't be especially rare in the protocols. The only way spins will be probably awarded is if we have better judging - but good luck with that!

andyjo24 said:

I am more than willing to give Julia the extra points for the spins, which she deserves (when they are not traveling) if they lower the GOEs she gets on the jumps (she does not deserve the same GOEs as Yuna....)

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I completely agree! However...I don't think her jumps are as bad as some make them out to be. She has excellent flow in and out and her 3t is legit but I agree. When the GOE's are inflated it removes the skaters ambition to improve that aspect does it not. It's a disservice. I must say again that I believe spin GOE's are given out much more generously than in jumping though. Of course I don't even count Sochi judging when discussing this. That's a whole different thread. I'm discussing in general over the last quad and mostly the quad to come.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I read an article were Eteri Tutberidzi is quoted saying that she finds it unfair that Yulia achieves positions and spins better than a lot of other girls in the field and how it gets scored. She doesn't think it's fair that other competitors can do lower quality spins and achieve level 4 and get 2-3 GOE. Here is an excerpt from that article:



I did a review of the GPF finals where Yulia and Mao faced off. Looking at the protocols Yulia's final spin which was well centered and received +3 GOE was worth 0.50 less than Mao's first 3a attempt which received -3 GOE across the board. Is it beneficial to the sport to award a botched 3a the same score as a groundbreaking spin that adds artistically as much to a program as jumps do, maybe even more so IMO?

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

The truth is when skaters perform jumps of average height with less flow as than a superior jumper, they receive lower GOE and rightfully so. I contend the same standard should apply to spins. In other words, level 4 and positive GOE are achieved much easier by an average spinner maybe even a weak spinner than in relation to a strong and weak jumper. By that I mean a superior jumper receives superior marks while superior spinners gain much less of an advantage over the competition that perform rather average spins. Does that seem fair?

Do you prefer Jumps to spins?
Are spins more artistic than jumps?
Is it fair to include spins when judges factor PCS marks and which ones?
Are Spins over scored?
Do spins promote originality that jumps can't?

I have nothing against Mao and just chose her 3a as a good example with no grudge in mind. I thought about pointing out bad spinners who receive less than one point less than Gracie and Yulia's spins but didn't feel it necessary.

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I believe the whole skating (all elements) should be in sync. No use having the skater with great spins and incredible positions and reach a low high in a 3-3 combination. I know that the Yulia spins are lol but I think all of their skating still has flaws (height of jumps, flutz, fickle axel, incomplete artistic content, etc.).
I think Etheri's opinion is irrelevant. And she should work to increase the artistic skills Yulia and stop comparing elements with differing difficulties ( more to jumps and less to spins).
Remembering that good spins contribute to an artistic package of several other elements.

caelum said:

I don't think we need to increase the base value for spins. Obviously all the base values are arbitrary, but I think in relative terms the values are defensible. The issue is GOE. For one thing, just like in step sequences, the level 3 and level 4 GOE should differ. A level 3 layback should not, even if performed beautifully, should not have the same GOE as a level 4. Level 4 spins should have GOE classes of {2.1, 1.4, 0.7} just like triple jumps and level 4 step sequences. But, then judges need to apply GOE correctly according to the guidelines. If the judges used the GOE guidelines, and with the higher GOE values for level 4 spins, then spins would be valued correctly in my viewed. Since I know the thread-starter, Sam-Skwantch, is a fan of Yulia, I'll use her as an illustration. In my estimation, Yulia's final combination spin at Sochi was the only spin in the ladies FS that deserved a +3 (her layback maybe, but if I remember it was slower than usual - I'd have to watch it back). Under my revision, that spin should have gotten her 5.60 points (rather than the 5.00 points it did) whereas Caro's final combination spin should have gotten no GOE at all for 3.50 points. Or consider Wagner's final combination spin which probably meets the +1 GOE requirements for 4.20 point, a 1.4 differential in favor of Yulia. I think a 2.1 point differential between Caro's traveling and poorly controlled level 4 spin and a 1.4 differential for Wagner's respectable, but unremarkable, spin with Yulia's beautiful spin is defensible and appropriate. I just think the GOE awards should be the same for spins and correctly judged - but therein lies the problem! The problem is spins, like everything else, are systematically mis-scored. Many of even the top ladies should be getting +1 at the most (or maybe 1.25-1.5 in an ideal world) and +0 should't be especially rare in the protocols. The only way spins will be probably awarded is if we have better judging - but good luck with that!

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I couldn't agree more.