South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging | Page 83 | Golden Skate

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

YesWay

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If a complaint gets filed with Court for Arbitration of Sport, I hope it looks into the composition of the technical panel, which clearly made many incorrect decisions in favor of Sotnikova.

There were three callers on the tech panel. Two of them were Russian. Alexander Lakernik is Russian and lives in Russia, and Olga Baranova was born in Moscow and lived in Russia before moving to Finland. It takes two technical members to downgrade jumps and levels, so Lakernik and Baranova, the two Russians, could have colluded to rig the results beyond the control of the other caller, Vanessa Gusmeroli (France).

*Yawn*

I haven't heard that before. Except the last 1000 times.
 

karne

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Well, at least they're not stupid enough to continue with the "waaaah the replay operator was Russian!" rubbish now...
 

cooper

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Mar 23, 2010
You do not know how a French caller voted. Maybe she was in agreement and there was no need to overrule anything. Your argument is based on nationality. It is wild. I can see very well why ISU dismissed it.

it's time to release those marks.. why not?? the ISU should release those..so that everyone will know who scored who.. why not just prove that there wasn't any biases or abnormal scoring.. come on.. just to shut up everyone.. and yes including those persistent korean fans... is ISU scared??
 

Meoima

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it's time to release those marks.. why not?? the ISU should release those..so that everyone will know who scored who.. why not just prove that there wasn't any biases or abnormal scoring.. come on.. just to shut up everyone.. and yes including those persistent korean fans... is ISU scared??
The point is, KSU didn't ask for the identity of the judges and relative scores. They should have added that demand in the complaint.
 

cooper

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The point is, KSU didn't ask for the identity of the judges and relative scores. They should have added that demand in the complaint.

i know.. but my point is.. if ISU said that there wasn't any biases based on their decision per se.. most of these korean fans will argue that they're hiding.. so why not prove to everyone what they said is true.. release those scores from the judges.. for once they should show transparency and accountability.. to prove to all those doubters wrong and that the scoring system is working..

of course they are STILL hiding to anonymity.. that's why.. they're scared..
 
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The ISU's position is that they do not have to prove anything to anyone. They do not care what the KSU demands or does not demand.
 

cooper

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Mar 23, 2010
The ISU's position is that they do not have to prove anything to anyone. They do not care what the KSU demands or does not demand.

i know.. and that's the problem..

now i feel justified that the scoring in sochi was a fraud..
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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When a Korean official was on pannel in Vancouver, you did not bring his nationality ad some isssue. Very poor argument.

Your argument is poorer. So basically no US, Japanese, Canadian or Russian skaters can EVER question any judgement just because their nationality has ALWAYS been part of the judging make up in this sport? Are you really claiming the Korean official cheated at Vancouver? Otherwise I don't see what is the point of your argument.

In many ways, too much emphasis has been raised on nationalities, but not enough on the all the individuals that makes up the panel and personal history (only known to ISU and their own federation) due to the anonymity clause. Whether each judges have given their individual marks fairly, with unbiased eye that include the technical panel when the results indicate collectively they are so far from the ball park, particularly wrong calls have been made to specific individuals.

US and apparently Russia are NOW pushing for removing anonymous judging. They should practice what they preach. ISU should reveal ALL of the judges mark at Sochi including all members of the technical panel and let the 'fact' speak for it self on what would deem 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable'. Whether it is 'fair' for someone to mark Yuna Kim 135 at the same time mark Adelina Sotnikova 155+ for example. I would also be very curious on the marks awarded on Mao, Carolina, Ashley, Gracie, and pretty much all the Chinese skaters as well.

The complaint content sent by KSU/Lawyer is a sham. It shows they neither care nor understand the real issue. It has always been about speed skating for them, so unsurprisingly you had that Speedy memo circulated unofficially 'contemplating' doing them a favour. It is how it works in ISU. It is a hopeless situation overall, due to the way cronyism has always worked between IOC, ISU, its power federations, big businesses and money. The judging panel selection is a direct product of this socio makeup which is against the principles of fairness and impartiality when one really think about it.
 

gravy

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FS really ought to take note from the artistic gymnastics scoring system. They're similar in the sense that there is a "technical" and "artistic" mark (and that they moved away from a "perfect" mark system, 6.0 and the 10). However, you haven't heard of cheating in gymnastics ever since the eastern-block judging in the late 80s for 3 simple reasons:

1. Judges are not allowed to give marks to athletes from their own country. This includes the difficulty panel which is somewhat equivalent to the technical callers in FS. I am still astounded that no one seems to care about that fact in FS. You can't tell me that there aren't enough qualified judges (who haven't cheated in the past) that you can hire who don't bring forth that huge conflict of interest. Nor can you tell me that a judge can be truly impartial to an athlete from their country.

2. In the all-around and team competitions, judges are randomly selected and only give scores to one group of athletes (~6 gymnasts out of 24-30 in total). This eliminates the possibility of fixing results because there are so many judges. It may seem messy, but it works.

3. Judges are not anonymous and their respective scores for each athlete are released after each competition. Also, if a certain judge's score deviates too much from the average of all the other judges for that athlete, they are suspended (whether they are attempting to fix results or are just incompetent at judging).
 

Meoima

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The ISU's position is that they do not have to prove anything to anyone. They do not care what the KSU demands or does not demand.
I still think that if both JFS and Italian fed filed complaints for Mao and Caro, along with KFS's for Yuna, with better spot-on content, they would make some different.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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They were anonymous all the years Kim was being massively overscored...

So I am curious which competition did you think Kim has overscored to rob someone's medal? Examples please.
I am all in favour for revealing these judging scores too :)


Re:gravy

I like this judging make up under gymnastics. At least it addresses potential conflict of interest, deters federations enforcing agenda by random selection. How many judges does it draw from to make up one panel per group? As this obviously goes into the cost.
 

cooper

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They were anonymous all the years Kim was being massively overscored...

i'm certain that the composition in the judging when yuna won w/ high scores... THERE WASN'T A SINGLE KOREAN in the tech panel.. nor 4 judges from south korea.. so bring it..i dare ISU to release those scores when yuna won.. :p
 

YesWay

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Really?

Everyone's going to repeat all the same worn-out arguments AGAIN?

Arguments that have nothing to do with the Korean complaint, or its dismissal?

For ANOTHER 100 pages?
 

kwanatic

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^^I know, right. :slink:

I will say re: the ISU dismissing this, that I'm not surprised. I do feel that if the USFSA, JSF and a couple of other federations had launched a joint complaint about it, the issue might have gotten more attention and the outcome could possibly be different b/c the complaint would have been coming from all sides instead of just from one tiny section. Unfortunately, it does look like the KSF is complaining b/c Yu-Na didn't win and, in that context, the ISU has no reason to entertain them. The KSF is a tiny federation without much pull. With Yu-Na gone they have no top tier level skaters so being out on the outs with them (KSF) really won't hurt the ISU in any way. Thus they can brush this to the side and ignore it. Sad but true.

I do think releasing the scores would be a good move but it's not like one judge or two judges scored Adelina high and everyone else didn't; the majority of the judges scored her in the same range so I don't exactly know what would come of it.
 

whatif

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Feb 20, 2014
I doubt that revealing the individual judges' scores from Sochi would clear any conspiracy theories as the last time I checked the scores were similar across the panel.
 

Tompson

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Apr 15, 2014
They were anonymous all the years Kim was being massively overscored...

Uhh..What medal Kim robbed? She just got plain 'oly-champ buff'.
Before? She consistently medaled at all the comp so getting higher and finally broke the wr at Vancouver. That's all.
 

mich2

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Apr 19, 2014
Your argument is poorer. So basically no US, Japanese, Canadian or Russian skaters can EVER question any judgement just because their nationality has ALWAYS been part of the judging make up in this sport? you really claiming the Korean official cheated at Vancouver? Otherwise I don't see what is the point of your argument.
I am sorry, you say I have a poor argument, so you see some and then you say you do not see any. Which is true? My point is that accusing people based on their nationality is wild.
 

mich2

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it's time to release those marks.. why not?? the ISU should release those..so that everyone will know who scored who.. why not just prove that there wasn't any biases or abnormal scoring.. come on.. just to shut up everyone.. and yes including those persistent korean fans... is ISU scared??
Yuna entered the competition with anonimous judging. She accepted the rule. Learn to lose. All judges gave Adelina winner score.
 
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