South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

Here is an account on the characters who were involved in this judging scandal. I believe someone asked for the link to this article earlier. I could be wrong on that but it's worth a read anyway. Our favorite actors all star in this long-running saga: Alexander, Alla, Piseev, and Yuri.

More on the women’s controversy

It’s unfortunate that the story about the women’s event wasn’t just about Adelina Sotnikova barrelling out of nowhere to prove a point: that she counted, that she should be noticed, that the Russian federation had taken her too lightly by not having her skate in the team event, with all the hype surrounding the 15-year-old wonderkid, Julia Lipnitskaia. Russia put all of its eggs in that wonderful little basket, but you know how bandwagons work.

Click to expand...

Alla doesn’t judge dance any more because of an interesting turn of events in Russia, following the country’s embarrassment at the Vancouver Olympics, having won no gold medals at all in figure skating. High-ranking Russian politicians wanted heads to roll. Many Russians were hoping that Piseev would abdicate his post as president, feeling that he had neglected to develop skating at a time of tough economic change. Incredibly, Piseev announced that he was stepping down as president. Other notable Russians lined up to win the position, including Anton Sikharulidze, the Russian who won Olympic gold in Salt Lake City. Alexander Gorshkov (1976 Olympic champion in dance) stepped down from his long-time role as chairman of the ISU’s ice dance technical committee to take a run at the post as well.

Click to expand...

karne said:

If the KSU's argument is going to include the replay operator they will be laughed out of the ISU building and rightly so.

The host of the competition always supplies the data entry operator and the replay operator. When the Olympics are in Korea, the data entry operator and replay operator will be Korean.

Click to expand...

The Koreans will ask why Lakernik was allowed to be the tech controller at his host country's Olympics though..

capcomeback said:

I don't need to do anything as I'm just pointing out things theoretically based upon my beliefs. There are things that the Koreans can point to as being suspicious.

Click to expand...

When I wrote you I really meant in a way differently than you specifically. I mean South Korea has to prove there was a real conspiracy and corruption between Lakernik Shekhovtseva balkov baranova and or gusmeroli and 6 or 7 or more mother judges to create a fake result that needs to be remedied.

jaylee said:

Not everyone knew the full history of the judges beforehand, or realized, for example, that Alla Shekhovtseva judged Adelina at every single one of her competitions this season.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I really don belive that. It's the job of the Fed's official to know everything about these competitions, especially the Olympics. The fans new about Yuri Balkov, do you really think that people who're suppose to know didn't?

Alla Shekhovtseva was photographed embracing Adelina AFTER the competition was over, not before, and that action was specifically mentioned in the statement about the complaint. So it's not, if at all, that Shekhovtseva is married to the VP of the Russian federation--it's the evidence of her close relationship with Adelina that came out in full display.

Click to expand...

The Japonese judge was speaking with Hanyu as well before the competition, so what? Judges are very involved with skaters. They advise them on many things and advocate their cause. What's different about Shekhovtseva embracing Adelina after her win? There is no need at all for evidence of close relationship between a judge and skaters becuase it's a well known fact, whether they do embrace them or not. It's how they work. I don't like that, but there you go.

In the close-knit world of skating, fraternization among judges and athletes also occurs at a level that might not be acceptable in other sports. While there is supposed to be complete separation at an event like the Olympics, judges and skaters often travel together and eat together on the international Grand Prix circuit.

Sometimes, judges also attend practices to assess skaters’ performances and communicate with athletes by email. Cyr said he considered himself friends with skaters whom he has judged for years, like Patrick Chan of Canada, the reigning three-time world champion, and Carolina Kostner of Italy, the 2012 women’s world champion. It was important, Cyr said, for skaters to become comfortable with judges, while adding that judges must maintain their integrity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/s...ing-figure-skating-gets-mixed-marks.html?_r=1

Btw, my personal issue with what happened is not with the particular judges but the technical calls, so I am not going to debate the significance/insignificance of the above.

Click to expand...

As I said, I get the technical calls debate. They're entitled to question that, fair enough.

I'm just pointing out that the KSU complaint is not simply based on a judge having a connection to a federation, which is being liberally mocked here as hypocrisy. The KSU statement specifically mentions Shekhovtseva hugging Adelina.

Click to expand...

It sure looks like hypocrisy though. That's the problem I have with this complain.

Also, it's NOT about the overall result. It's about how the skaters were scored that led to the result. Had Adelina won without the big increase in GOE, PCS, and technical calls she got in contrast to previous competitions, then there would have been no suspicion (or less, anyway) to fall on the judges in question.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, let's dig into that. Keeping in mind thought that different judges can give different scores for the same program and/or execution.

Anyway, I do not believe the scores will be reviewed in any sincere way or the results will be overturned. I am,however, interested in this complaint if it brings forth more transparency and accountability in the scoring system.

Click to expand...

It will be worth trying for that.

Ill ask again. Do we even have a copy of the complaint that was filled? It's hard to discuss the validity and merit of something you can't read.

Sot bots need to watch Adelina's TEB program before commenting on any judging issue related threads.

Today, 07:45 PM #270
Melon
Adiós
Join Date
Nov 2012
Posts
289
Sot bots need to watch Adelina's TEB program before commenting on any judging issue related threads.

Click to expand...

A true fan of Adelina or of ladies figure skating most likely has seen it. This proves what? That Adelina was better in Sochi. What does that prove in relation to this complaint? Different judges..different field..different caliber event will bring different results and scores. What am I missing.

I'm no Adelina fan BTW before you regress to calling me a name. In that case I'd prefer something slightly more creative....how about 'Yuliatron'. I like that !!

Alba said:

I'm sorry but I really don belive that. It's the job of the Fed's official to know everything about these competitions, especially the Olympics. The fans new about Yuri Balkov, do you really think that people who're suppose to know didn't?

Click to expand...

Believe what you want to believe. I am not particularly invested in this part of the debate. I haven't read the full complaint, I don't know what the KSU is thinking. I speculate, and so are others. You and others haven't read the complaint either, but keep throwing around accusations of hypocrisy. So I pointed out that the KSU complaint doesn't solely rest on the judge selected having a connection to the Russian federation.

I don't know what the KSU was thinking after the panel announced, but they had what, half an hour to an hour to protest after the judging panel had been announced? I can very well believe that its officials on hand didn't know immediately about Yuri Balkov. The KSU couldn't have a judge at the 2006 Olympics because no Korean skater qualified. Yuna Kim was the first Korean skater to win a JGP, GP, or ISU championship medal. That says a lot about their figure skating history when they didn't consistently have a judge at major events and didn't have a skater who could win on the international level until 2005--7 years after Nagano, when the Yuri Balkov scandal occurred. Heck, I'd assume most of the KSU officials know more about speed skating rather than figure skating, because that's their priority.

And even if they did know about Yuri Balkov, how would the KSU even know if they could protest when they didn't know if such an appointment had any significance on their skater? Maybe they foolishly had faith that the judges would judge fairly?

The Japonese judge was speaking with Hanyu as well before the competition, so what? Judges are very involved with skaters. They advise them on many things and advocate their cause. What's different about Shekhovtseva embracing Adelina after her win? There is no need at all for evidence of close relationship between a judge and skaters becuase it's a well known fact, whether they do embrace them or not. It's how they work. I don't like that, but there you go.

Click to expand...

Not just the embrace, though, as in the fact about Shekhovtseva judging Adelina at every one of her competitions. What about the skaters without close relationship with judges? Do they get screwed, and oh well, that's life? That's what I'd like to know.

Anyway, I said I didn't want to debate the above because who the judges are isn't of the most interest to me. I don't have a problem with the KSU making a complaint, though. I'd like to know if the two judges they singled out match up to the highest scores on Adelina's protocols--and the lowest on Yuna's. Of course, nothing will happen...

Sam-Skwantch said:

Ill ask again. Do we even have a copy of the complaint that was filled? It's hard to discuss the validity and merit of something you can't read.

Click to expand...

No, just statements released to the media.

jaylee said:

No, just statements released to the media.

Click to expand...

[]

Re: copy of the actual complaint, I've done several searches using different terms & combinations of terms. Thus far, coming up empty.

I hope there is something about sheepskin jumps in the complaint. I'm not sure Adelina had enough of those.

skatedreamer said:

S-S, you're one of the voices of reason on these threads. What makes you think that some of the skaters themselves were involved? That's one scenario I don't even want to think about. :disapp:

Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.

Click to expand...

according to this she was the only eligible judge from korea..

http://static.isu.org/media/104703/1581-list-officials-fs-id-sys-2009-10.pdf

and it's funny how they compared alla from rhee.. and trying to paint like it is actually the same..

cooper said:

according to this she was the only eligible judge from korea..

http://static.isu.org/media/104703/1581-list-officials-fs-id-sys-2009-10.pdf

and it's funny how they compared alla from rhee.. and trying to paint like it is actually the same..

Click to expand...

In many ways it is the same. They both have a clear conflict of interest. What's fair for one must be fair for the other. Personally like I stated earlier I have a hard time assigning different levels of conflict of interest for anyone working from within any federation. Why is a VP going to be anymore corrupt than say a former coach or family member of a fed member for that matter. It's very difficult to do so without resorting to speculation and potentially bordering your argument on bigotry. It is just as possible and fair to claim the Russian judge knew nothing about the inflation and in fact had a high but reasonable score. No one can prove otherwise can they.

Sam-Skwantch said:

[]

Click to expand...

Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.

Sam-Skwantch said:

In many ways it is the same. They both have a clear conflict of interest. What's fair for one must be fair for the other. Personally like I stated earlier I have a hard time assigning different levels of conflict of interest for anyone working from within any federation. Why is a VP going to be anymore corrupt than say a former coach or family member of a fed member for that matter. It's very difficult to do so without resorting to speculation and potentially bordering your argument on bigotry. It is just as possible and fair to claim the Russian judge knew nothing about the inflation and in fact had a high but reasonable score. No one can prove otherwise can they.

Click to expand...

i know the definition of conflict of interest... but you also have to look at the circumstances.. the russian fed had many judges they can choose from while korea does not have the luxury.. alla substituted one of the judges just in time for the long program (along w/ balkov) after the sp which the 3 top skaters were virtually tied (aside from she was a judge in every competition of adelina this season)..

further.. we haven't seen the whole complaint yet... aside from the statements..

Every ISU judge has ties to his or her National Federation. There is no other way to become an ISU judge.

The ISU does, however, have some rules about conflicts of interest. Here is a case where an ISU referee allowed her sister to serve as a judge in a novice event that she was refereeing. (There probably wasn't anyone else available.)

http://static.isu.org/media/105567/1736-decision-of-isu-disciplinary-commission-rosto-jensen.pdf

jaylee said:

Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.

Click to expand...

By dismissing you must mean supporting it? I said all along its a good thing and I'm in favor of it. Went so far as to say what took so long. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to fairness to make a point. Is there something wrong with that? And wanting to read the article before making a final assessment goes hand in hand to making an informed descision to me.

Where do you get the idea I've dismissed it?

jaylee said:

Anyway, I do not believe the scores will be reviewed in any sincere way or the results will be overturned. I am,however, interested in this complaint if it brings forth more transparency and accountability in the scoring system.

Click to expand...

It will. Judges will no longer be anonymous and it will be known as The Sotnikova Rule. Judges suspected of cheating will be quicky and severely Sotnikova'ed.

skatedreamer said:

Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.

Click to expand...

Let's say that South Korea didn't have another Olympic-qualified judges available at the time.
What about Jodi Abbott of Canada chosen to judge Ice Dancing in Vancouver 2010 while she was the vice president of the board of directors of the Canadian figure skating association?
Karen Butcher (judge Pairs in Sochi) is a Director of the Canadian figure skating association. We all know of course about rumours concerning Shawn Rettstatt, the USA judge in both Ice Dance events and I'm not referring to l'Equipe article which I don't belive by the way.

Anyway, I'm curious to know is the complain from South Korea going to include the judging panel from the Short Program as well?


p.s. By the way Samuel Auxier is also a Deloitte & Touche LLP principal in the Capital Markets Technology practice based in Chicago, and he has been with the organization for over 14 years. Deloitte has been a sponsor of the USOC since 2009, and the sponsorship was recently extended through 2020.