South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

Ophelia · Jun 6, 2014

^As I've said before, the issue at hand is bigger than whether Yuna Kim should get the OGM, or if she gives a flying rat's *** about Sochi, or if the KSU cares. The issue that people should care about is how Sochi brought to light possible flaws with the current judging and scoring system that allowed for this kind of controversy (or at least, that's what I'm most concerned about), and how they should be addressed. Kim, Sotnikova, etc. are just conduits for this larger issue.

An apt analogy would be the ongoing Roman Polanski case. It's been years since he committed his rape, his victim has moved on and has publicly expressed that she forgives him and wants to drop the case, but yet the judicial system is still intent on prosecuting him, and people care enough to be out for his blood. Why? Because the case isn't just about the victim anymore, but is about a crime that Polanski committed against society (legal principle). The same logic extends to this situation.

nguyenghita · Jun 6, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
So why isn't she speaking out now? For the sake of So-Youn Park and company? She's done and will have zero repercussions. So all I take from the whole debate is this. Yuna is silent. KSU put forward a hypocritical and easily dismissible complaint.

My god, what is Yuna doing here? Just stop bring her into here, she has no responsibility in this bunch of crap. For So Youn sake, Yuna is coaching her in LA instead of speaking out against anything, anyone else. Yuna is no longer under KSU and they didn't control or care for her for a long long time. What KSU is doing now just because they be pressured by the Korean public outraged, not because of Yuna or their sport in general

YesWay · Jun 6, 2014

AliceInWonderland said:
I don't understand why no one seems to remember that there was plenty of cheating in 6.0 when the judging was NOT ANONYMOUS.

This is true. However, it did mean they got caught every now and then.

Meoima · Jun 6, 2014

YesWay said:
This is true. However, it did mean they got caught every now and then.

Yup, that's why I said if we couldn't do anything about the current CoP, at least erase the anonymous judging.

cooper · Jun 6, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
So why isn't she speaking out now? For the sake of So-Youn Park and company? She's done and will have zero repercussions. So all I take from the whole debate is this. Yuna is silent. KSU put forward a hypocritical and easily dismissible complaint. Most importantly the world rankings are pretty accurate. The only anamoly here is Sochi and those involved aren't doing anything for whatever reasons they have. If the rest of the figure skating world ie rankings are intact....then why should I care about this specific situation? I think Sochi was an outlier scenario in the big scope of things. So why should I or anyone else make a stink of it if the people involved don't seem to care??

**crickets**

because yuna is too busy coaching team korea in LA.. and like what she said sochi is already over and doesn't want to be involved in anything related to it..

mich2 · Jun 6, 2014

Mathman said:
The IJS hornswoggles us out of making any sense of these numbers at all. Here are the total PCS given by the nine judges, listed in two different orders.

SOT 48.25…..48……48……47.75..46.5….45.5….45...44.25...44.25
KIM …48……….47.75……47……..46.25……46…….45.25…..42…48.25…...45.25

Sotnikova wins 7 to 2.

Here are the same numbers arranged differently.

KIM 48.25……48……47.25…47…..46.75….46….45.25…45.25….42
SOT ….48…...47.25….46.5….45.5…..45…..44.25….44.25… 48.25….48

Mow Kim wins 7 to 2.

Under ordinal judging, even with anonymity at least we knew how many forst place ordinalsd each skater received.

If seven judges gave Yuna higher GOE, she would have won GOE, isn't it?

NMURA · Jun 6, 2014

There is no controversy about Sotnikova's win outside of South Korea and some skating forums. Sotnikova has the higher jump content, superior spins and steps. It's quite arrogant to assert that a technically inferior skater should "win" as long as she skates "cleanly" because she is the "queen". Maybe the results could be different in other countries, but in this sport, it requires absolutely superior performances to beat the home favorite. It's simply impossible with Kim's content. Probably the "judging" at London worlds gave her (and S Koreans) false confidences.

sky_fly20 · Jun 6, 2014

NMURA said:
There is no controversy about Sotnikova's win outside of South Korea and some skating forums. Sotnikova has the higher jump content, superior spins and steps. It's quite arrogant to assert that a technically inferior skater should "win" as long as she skates "cleanly" because she is the "queen". Maybe the results could be different in other countries, but in this sport, it requires absolutely superior performances to beat the home favorite. It's simply impossible with Kim's content. Probably the "judging" at London worlds gave her (and S Koreans) false confidences.

and only in one country the posters and news is being parroted :eek:

hwell:

karne · Jun 6, 2014

AliceInWonderland said:
I don't understand why no one seems to remember that there was plenty of cheating in 6.0 when the judging was NOT ANONYMOUS.

Or home cooking.

I was watching a video of a very young Plushenko a little while back - I think he was sixteen or seventeen.

All the judges gave him 5.7-5.8 in the technical mark - he had skated clean. Just a little tilt on one jump. The American judge? 5.5.

All the judges gave him 5.8-5.9 in the technical mark. The American judge? 5.5.

Oh whoops sorry I forgot, only the EVIL RUSSIANS cheat the marks or do home cooking!

mirai4life · Jun 6, 2014

NMURA said:
There is no controversy about Sotnikova's win outside of South Korea and some skating forums. Sotnikova has the higher jump content, superior spins and steps. It's quite arrogant to assert that a technically inferior skater should "win" as long as she skates "cleanly" because she is the "queen". Maybe the results could be different in other countries, but in this sport, it requires absolutely superior performances to beat the home favorite. It's simply impossible with Kim's content. Probably the "judging" at London worlds gave her (and S Koreans) false confidences.

Yes because Sotnikova is the best skater in the world with those Component scores.

What kind of overnight success? What did the judges drink the night before the Olympics?
WOO. Simply put, with the normal judging, Sotnikova would be way behind Kim in both SP and LP. bye.

YesWay · Jun 6, 2014

Let's do this more graphically

Alba · Jun 6, 2014

YesWay said:
Let's do this more graphically

I'm afraid that won't help either. :eek:

hwell:

p.s. I think this topic should be put together with the other on on the same subject. Just a suggestion. :slink:

cooper · Jun 6, 2014

NMURA said:
There is no controversy about Sotnikova's win outside of South Korea and some skating forums. Sotnikova has the higher jump content, superior spins and steps. It's quite arrogant to assert that a technically inferior skater should "win" as long as she skates "cleanly" because she is the "queen". Maybe the results could be different in other countries, but in this sport, it requires absolutely superior performances to beat the home favorite. It's simply impossible with Kim's content. Probably the "judging" at London worlds gave her (and S Koreans) false confidences.

what superior steps? she didn't require the level 4 as bop pointed in the other thread.. and the jump content should be rewarded through execution.. she simply didn't execute those jumps.. :sarcasm: and technical inferior skater?? :laugh:

NMURA · Jun 6, 2014

cooper said:
what superior steps? she didn't require the level 4 as bop pointed in the other thread.. and the jump content should be rewarded through execution.. she simply didn't execute those jumps.. :sarcasm: and technical inferior skater??

Well, Kim's steps are just average. She has never done anything worthy of level 4 in her career, whereas Sotnikova was rewarded level 4 more often. In general, Callers are not so consistent on steps. I don't argue the validity of a particular call. Reputation is important in this sport. In short, Kim was not given a special favor because it was her enemy territory. Same thing can apply to jumps. It's a total fantasy to assume Kim's low BV free program can always "earn" 74+ points TES. The GOE is not so reliable as the BV. They are always swayed by the judges mood and atmospheres.

For example, Shin Amano is known for generous calls on steps. Just check the protocol of this year's junior worlds ladies. Many of them are rewarded their first "level 4" in their careers.

kwanatic · Jun 6, 2014

YesWay said:
Let's do this more graphically

cooper · Jun 6, 2014

NMURA said:
Well, Kim's steps are just average. She has never done anything worthy of level 4 in her career, whereas Sotnikova was rewarded level 4 more often. In general, Callers are not so consistent on steps. I don't argue the validity of a particular call. Reputation is important in this sport. In short, Kim was not given a special favor because it was her enemy territory. Same thing can apply to jumps. It's a total fantasy to assume Kim's low BV free program can always "earn" 74+ points TES. The GOE is not so reliable as the BV. They are always swayed by the judges mood and atmospheres.

For example, Shin Amano is known for generous calls on steps. Just check the protocol of this year's junior worlds ladies. Many of them are rewarded their first "level 4" in their careers.

yuna did managed to get the level 4 step sequence.. read bop's thread..

as for the base value.. yuna had more difficulty w/ her 3lutz/3toe in the sp.. and yet adelina who had the inferior bv in the sp still managed to tie w/ yuna in the sp.. so i don't agree w/ this argument about strong base values should be rewarded more..because yuna was not even rewarded for it in the sp.. adelina had more difficult program because of her base values in the lp.. but she didn't execute them.. she never got called on her flutz and the underrotated toe.. not to mention the 2 footed jump..

NMURA · Jun 6, 2014

cooper said:
yuna did managed to get the level 4 step sequence.. read bop's thread..

as for the base value.. yuna had more difficulty w/ her 3lutz/3toe in the sp.. and yet adelina who had the inferior bv in the sp still managed to tie w/ yuna in the sp.. so i don't agree w/ this argument about strong base values should be rewarded more..because yuna was not even rewarded for it in the sp.. adelina had more difficult program because of her base values in the lp.. but she didn't execute them.. she never got called on her flutz and the underrotated toe.. not to mention the 2 footed jump..

If you see the inconsistent calls on steps, there's no "guarantee" of level 4. Anyone who is not in the favored positition should not count on that. She needs advantages in the BV in order to counter the home favorite. GOE is not trustworthy. Six triples can't beat seven triples. It's a common knowledge that even a six year old can understand.

anyway, the point gap between Sot and Kim is bigger than one arbitrary call can explain. It only explains that Sotnikova was favored over Kim. Even so, it's not like "Plushenko lost to quadless Lysacek". A six triples skater (the only one in the top ten at Sochi) was beaten by a seven triples skater.

YesWay · Jun 6, 2014

Here we go again

Alba said:
p.s. I think this topic should be put together with the other on on the same subject. Just a suggestion.

I agree - this should be merged into the original "Korea complains" thread.

This news did not warrant a new thread, especially since it of course immediately turned into YET ANOTHER another platform for everyone to wheel out their Sochi arguments.

Pointless exercise, because everybody has made up their minds by now.
There is nothing new to be said.
Everybody is entrenched.
Nobody is going to convince anybody to change their minds about anything.

cooper · Jun 6, 2014

AliceInWonderland said:
No. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Balkov alone could not have done much so getting angry at him alone is wrong. He may have cheated, he may not have, we don't know. All I'm saying is that, had Balkov not been on the panel, Adelina would have still won.

you're missing the point here.. whether balkov made an impact or not.. the point is once YOU CHEATED you have no right to be a judge anymore.. how in the world a judge gets a chance again in the most important event like the olympics?? a cheater is always a cheater.. and has no business to be there!

NMURA said:
If you see the inconsistent calls on steps, there's no "guarantee" of level 4. Anyone who is not in the favored positition should not count on that. She needs advantages in the BV in order to counter the home favorite. GOE is not trustworthy. Six triples can't beat seven triples. It's a common knowledge that even a six year old can understand.

anyway, the point gap between Sot and Kim is bigger than one arbitrary call can explain. It only explains that Sotnikova was favored over Kim. Even so, it's not like "Plushenko lost to quadless Lysacek". A six triples skater (the only one in the top ten at Sochi) was beaten by a seven triples skater.

no. bop's thread explained it.. read his thread and try make your own counter argument..

and sotnikova didn't have a 7 triple program.. she didn't execute it.. she wasn't called for her obvious flutz and the underrotated 3toe..

nguyenghita · Jun 6, 2014

YesWay said:
This news did not warrant a new thread, especially since it of course immediately turned into YET ANOTHER another platform for everyone to wheel out their Sochi arguments.

Everybody has made up their minds by now.
There is nothing new to be said.
Everybody is entrenched.
Nobody is going to convince anybody to change their minds about anything.

Thank god and thank you :clap:

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

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