South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

If any rink could fill all its slots with figure skaters reliably, they might do so. But in our area, it's hockey that pays the bills- the expense is spread over a larger group of people. Even the Iceworks 3 rink facility in Ashton, PA, where the big Liberty summer competition is held, has a big hockey program. That is, of course, why there are "Watch out for flying pucks" signs on the glass.

karne said:

However, after Googling all of the names, I found that Chihee Rhee was actually the vice-president of the KSU when she judged the ladies' event at the Vancouver Olympics. So my point stands: the KSU had no problem with officials sitting on panels in Vancouver, thus they are hypocrites who should shut up and quit being sore losers.

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Sam-Skwantch said:

While I do not defend any judging in Sochi I feel compelled to point out how ridiculous it is for Korea to send their actual VP of KSU four years earlier to Vancouver and then four years later cry foul when Russia sends the wife of one. You can't make this crap up. The whole thing is a comedy show.

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Zing! Seriously- you don't get it. Judging in Vancouver with KSU official on panel was fair. Judiging in Sochi with the wife of Russian official wasn't fair. Fair is only when Yuna wins. When she doesn't- its not fair.

I am glad that official KSU complain happened. When Yuna fans committe crimes against Adelina- people can say it's some individuals' doing. When Yuna choose to stay away when her fans committe crimes against her underage rival- people can say it's shameless choice of one athlete. When Korean TV channels show disrespectful programs about Adelina- people can say it's private media business doing. Things are different when the official government body does the thing it does- they represent the country, the government, the nation. Complain was a boderline when the whole whining case over Yuna's loss became officially a comedy show. Now Yuna got the legacy thanks to her fans and federation as the idol who inspired crimes and the athlete who was defacto represented by her federation as a sore loser. The funny thing is her fans and federation don't understand that they are making Yuna no favor.

usethis2 said:

@dorispulaski: Thank you for sharing the link. Though I have to say that it still leaves a question why KSU would decline such a request. KSU viewed it as an excess, perhaps? I thought there were lots of people skating in Korea these days. I guess I had an exaggerated impression.

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For the clarification: It was City of Seoul who declined, not KSU.

The public rinks available in the metropolitan area are crowded. It is not easy for skaters to rent those facilities during the daytime. The one Yuna has been using, and shared by figure skaters/short track skaters/ice hockey players, is run by KOC (Korean Olympic Committee). This facility is exclusive for athletes representing the national team.

One of the problems is that the law regulating ice rink facilities in Korea is quite outdated. Under the current system, it is difficult for private parties to build decent size ice rinks for commercial usages. On the other hand, local governments are reluctant to build facilities for elite level skaters, since the size of beneficiaries is not large enough to justify spending tax payers' money.

In my opinion, a proper solution would be updating the regulation to encourage building private rinks. This would eventually solve the problem in the long term. But the inconvenience for skaters continues for the time being ...

It's sad to think I can easily access an ice rink nearly whenever I want and not Yuna. Seriously!! We have a family member who operates an ice rink here stateside and we can go skate before or after hours and we do quite frequently. So i have better access to ice than one of the greatest skaters ever? How can that be? The other head scratcher here is that a local doctor built a small rink for his family and shares the ice with hockey teams and figure skaters alike. I would imagine Yuna makes more money than a family doctor who funded and built a rink on his own. I'm so confused.

Its not uncommon to see our local skaters rent the ice at 5am and hold private sessions. This happens before competitions and shows a lot or used for working on new choreography in the off season. We have a few skaters that go to nationals every year and our local skating club lobbied to get them unlimited free ice time during regularly scheduled freestyle events.

Sam-Skwantch said:

The other head scratcher here is that a local doctor built a small rink for his family and shares the ice with hockey teams and figure skaters alike. I would imagine Yuna makes more money than a family doctor who funded and built a rink on his own. I'm so confused.

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If she wanted to build a private rink for herself and a few friends outside the metropolitan area, than she could have afforded it. However, if she wanted to build it inside the metropolitan area, then it becomes another matter. Population density of Seoul is very high, raising the land price to a very high level. The analogy could be such as building a brand new rink facility inside the City of New York.

Rubirosa said:

Now Yuna got the legacy thanks to her fans and federation as the idol who inspired crimes and the athlete who was defacto represented by her federation as a sore loser. The funny thing is her fans and federation don't understand that they are making Yuna no favor.

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Yuna didn't ask for this complaint and didn't ask for any actions to be done on her behalf.

The Russian federation did file a protest for Irina Slutskaya at the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. That didn't make Irina a sore loser.

Irina continues to disagree with the results of both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics (where she believed she deserved the silver). That doesn't make her a sore loser either.

Rubirosa said:

Zing! Seriously- you don't get it. Judging in Vancouver with KSU official on panel was fair. Judiging in Sochi with the wife of Russian official wasn't fair. Fair is only when Yuna wins. When she doesn't- its not fair.

I am glad that official KSU complain happened. When Yuna fans committe crimes against Adelina- people can say it's some individuals' doing. When Yuna choose to stay away when her fans committe crimes against her underage rival- people can say it's shameless choice of one athlete. When Korean TV channels show disrespectful programs about Adelina- people can say it's private media business doing. Things are different when the official government body does the thing it does- they represent the country, the government, the nation. Complain was a boderline when the whole whining case over Yuna's loss became officially a comedy show. Now Yuna got the legacy thanks to her fans and federation as the idol who inspired crimes and the athlete who was defacto represented by her federation as a sore loser. The funny thing is her fans and federation don't understand that they are making Yuna no favor.

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The whole drama is started by those biased judges so of course people have any right to ask for answer. What's wrong with that? Yuna has no voice in this drama from the start, she choose to stay away, since when that classy attituded is called "shameless"

Just laught as much as you can but don't even talk about how Yuna's legacy will last, by any mean it will be much much more brighter than a "gold medalist" for sure

Sam-Skwantch said:

It's sad to think I can easily access an ice rink nearly whenever I want and not Yuna. Seriously!! We have a family member who operates an ice rink here stateside and we can go skate before or after hours and we do quite frequently. So i have better access to ice than one of the greatest skaters ever? How can that be? The other head scratcher here is that a local doctor built a small rink for his family and shares the ice with hockey teams and figure skaters alike. I would imagine Yuna makes more money than a family doctor who funded and built a rink on his own. I'm so confused.

Its not uncommon to see our local skaters rent the ice at 5am and hold private sessions. This happens before competitions and shows a lot or used for working on new choreography in the off season. We have a few skaters that go to nationals every year and our local skating club lobbied to get them unlimited free ice time during regularly scheduled freestyle events.

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In my country, it's not that difficult to get the private ice without paying a dime. I'm sure, for Yuna, she can have that privilege anywhere else too, more so than any of us. This is clearly not about her but her needs to support younger generations. Also, Yuna is not the type of person who use her name for personal gains anyway.

jaylee said:

Yuna didn't ask for this complaint and didn't ask for any actions to be done on her behalf.

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She didn't object them either. Yuna has a history of whining when the results doesn't suit her wishes and the history of lying that she has no problem with. She lied about Japanese skaters disturbing her practice, never apologized for her lie. Mao's sunflower seeds was found guilty by Yuna in her falling the jump. Adelina dared to leave the press-conference without Yuna's permission.

nguyenghita said:

The whole drama is started by those biased judges so of course people have any right to ask for answer. What's wrong with that?

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Nothing of course! Because judges who doesn't make Yuna win are always biased. She is a must be 1st. The relation with officials or being officials is not a problem when Yuna wins like in Vancouver. It becomes a problem when Yuna losses like in Sochi. If she loses, the official's wife is automatically biased. Fair judgement is only when Yuna wins. It's a rule. One of Dark Ice Age rule. There are many others. For Yuna flip is "light in-edge", it's not lip, it's special Yuna amendement. For other skaters it must be "obvious out-edge" for lutz because Yuna has it, "light out-edge" for lutz is not available for anyone. Only "light in-edge" for Yuna's lip. Judges don't have a chance the check the blade on the ice, Yuna fans do, they know better. She doesn't have any crossovers, she is not just gliding, people should say she "accelerates", it's "hard to notice on video, but it's noticeable live." Yuna fans, and only Yuna's, watch live, they know, others can't know, they watch TV, video. If another skater has better choreography, it's "unmemorable choreography", if another has better transitions, they are "choreographically meaningless." When Yuna fans insult other skaters calling them animals, it's "off-topic remark", not insult. When the crime is committed by Yuna fans, it's "drama" and not a crime. Quotes are taken from Yuna fans posts, they are not mine by the way.
Happy days we are having. Yuna fans are doomed to stay angry and bitter till the end of their days singing the same broken record forever- Yuna was underscored, biased judges, judging conspiracy..

Yuna has no voice in this drama from the start, she choose to stay away, since when that classy attituded is called "shameless"

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When you or your underage child becomes a victim of a crime, I hope there will be some better person around who will have a voice and will do something to stop the crime. Will you rather choose someone who chooses to stay away like Yuna? Okay.

Oh please, I think you have gone too far. I have never been a Kim's fan, seriously I find her skating not much interesting, but I have never thought she is a bad person. Please, all these skaters have known and done so far in their lives are just to skate their best, what their fans do has nothing to do with them, it is beyond the skaters limits. :disapp:
I doubt that Kim is a social person who has time to check all the social networks out there to know what kind of cyber bullying her opponents are suffering from her fans. Spare her please. I dislike those fans that bully people on the internet, but it's not like we have the rights to put all the blames on a young girl who just wants to move on. She did nothing wrong, it's some of her fanatics fan.

Rubirosa said:

Zing! Seriously- you don't get it. Judging in Vancouver with KSU official on panel was fair. Judiging in Sochi with the wife of Russian official wasn't fair. Fair is only when Yuna wins. When she doesn't- its not fair.

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I've waded through alot of head-butting between the two camps, and I'm starting to tire of this argument. It seems like the main goal is simply to HECKLE anyone who wants to discuss the possibility of cheating in Sochi, by incessantly pointing out that they are hypocrites. It's a borderline ad hominem, as they never seem to have much to else to say on the issue, or explain exactly where they stand on the topic in general.

Since I'm using your statement as an example, Rubi, let me invite you to answer the following 1) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Vancouver? and 2) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Sochi, and for both questions 3)Why or why not?

Let's stop playing whack-a-hypocrite, and let's have an actual discussion.

Meoima said:

Oh please, I think you have gone too far. I have never been a Kim's fan, seriously I find her skating not much interesting, but I have never thought she is a bad person. Please, all these skaters have known and done so far in their lives are just to skate their best, what their fans do has nothing to do with them, it is beyond the skaters limits. :disapp:
I doubt that Kim is a social person who has time to check all the social networks out there to know what kind of cyber bullying her opponents are suffering from her fans. Spare her please. I dislike those fans that bully people on the internet, but it's not like we have the rights to put all the blames on a young girl who just wants to move on. She did nothing wrong, it's some of her fanatics fan.

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did you know?? for those mao bots yuna is a devil in disguise..

once again for the record yuna never ask her federation to file an appeal..and even asked them to let it rest.. but it came from public pressure and politicians in korea.. demanding an answer..while the incomptent ksu hesitated for the past few days..and finally made the decision..while yuna just respect that decision..

jaylee said:

Yuna didn't ask for this complaint and didn't ask for any actions to be done on her behalf.

The Russian federation did file a protest for Irina Slutskaya at the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. That didn't make Irina a sore loser.

Irina continues to disagree with the results of both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics (where she believed she deserved the silver). That doesn't make her a sore loser either.

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well.. i don't see them a sore loser either..

it is within their rights.. and within the legal process..

but ksu/koc and now yuna getting dragged by one bot here somehow it is poor sportsmanship/sour graping.. imagine that..

I♥Yuna;891541 said:

I've waded through alot of head-butting between the two camps, and I'm starting to tire of this argument. It seems like the main goal is simply to HECKLE anyone who wants to discuss the possibility of cheating in Sochi, by incessantly pointing out that they are hypocrites. It's a borderline ad hominem, as they never seem to have much to else to say on the issue, or explain exactly where they stand on the topic in general.

Since I'm using your statement as an example, Rubi, let me invite you to answer the following 1) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Vancouver? and 2) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Sochi, and for both questions 3)Why or why not?

Let's stop playing whack-a-hypocrite, and let's have an actual discussion.

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:agree:

Anna K. said:

Is there any lawyer who can translate it to normal people's language?
Thanks in advance.

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My post at 148 might help.

I♥Yuna;891541 said:

I've waded through alot of head-butting between the two camps, and I'm starting to tire of this argument. It seems like the main goal is simply to HECKLE anyone who wants to discuss the possibility of cheating in Sochi, by incessantly pointing out that they are hypocrites. It's a borderline ad hominem, as they never seem to have much to else to say on the issue, or explain exactly where they stand on the topic in general.

Since I'm using your statement as an example, Rubi, let me invite you to answer the following 1) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Vancouver? and 2) Do you believe there was cheating going on in the FS events in Sochi, and for both questions 3)Why or why not?

Let's stop playing whack-a-hypocrite, and let's have an actual discussion.

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While I love the mental image of whack a hypocrite and the possibilities are endless about who would pop out of the little mole holes I'll resist and instead answer your questions.

1)Cheating is hard to prove and I've said since day one, I think that it's very possible that the judges may have in fact conspired to follow the rules. The system is easily exploited and the subjective nature of the sport can be taken advantage of. I am a strong advocate in forcing the judges to explain their marks better so we know for example why skater A) got a +3 GOE on a particular element from any given judge. On the protocol it would look like.

3ltz-3t +2 GOE (bullets 1,3,5 satisfied) Exceptional Flow and Difficult Entrance

This won't stop cheating but it will force the cheaters to explain their marks. The rules can be adjusted to fix clear exploitations. Things like the bullet points for awarding GOE, which go as far to say the amount of bullet points used to give GOE levels is merely suggestion, will be examined and potentially changed. According to the current rules a judge can award a +3 GOE if only one bullet is satisfied and not be cheating. Unethical maybe but this is not cheating according to ISU guidlines.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf

I'm sure we all know these by heart but in the case some are in the dark above is the ISU rules for awarding GOE. Please note the last sentence in the first paragraph!!


2) I do not think there was any anomaly in the scores in Vancouver. Since I was quoted as part of the "zing" I feel inclined to say. Whether or not there was cheating in 2010 does not remove or add to the comedical value of Korea complaining about a wife of a VP to judge knowing full well that four years earlier they themselves used an actual VP to judge the Olympics. There is no denying the conflict of interest which is hilarious.

I have no issues with Korea filling a complaint and actually wondered what took so long. Hopefully something good can come out of this in terms of reforms. Not likely but one can hope. I also think Yuna is the embodiment of class and have much respect for her and disagree she has done anything wrong as some have suggested.

Rubirosa said:

Zing! Seriously- you don't get it. Judging in Vancouver with KSU official on panel was fair. Judiging in Sochi with the wife of Russian official wasn't fair. Fair is only when Yuna wins. When she doesn't- its not fair.

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Oh clueless Sotbot you forget the biggest difference. Nobody questions that Yu Na was the runaway and rightful winner of Sochi. In fact Yu Na has NEVER won an event controversially her entire career, only lost them controversially. That is obviously a huge contrast to Sotnikova in Sochi where 99% of experts and fans (most who are not even fans of Yu Na Kim) around the world view her win as a farce and purposely orchestrated.

I am glad that official KSU complain happened. When Yuna fans committe crimes

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Speak english please.

Complain was a boderline when the whole whining case over Yuna's loss became officially a comedy show. Now Yuna got the legacy thanks to her fans and federation as the idol who inspired crimes and the athlete who was defacto represented by her federation as a sore loser. The funny thing is her fans and federation don't understand that they are making Yuna no favor.

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Again speak english, and no this is only in your little fantasy world. In the real world Yu Na is seen as a bigger hero and legend in the sport than before after handling a disgraceful sham of a loss with incredible closs, the such which your beloved Sotnitkova cant display even in the face of a tainted and gifted victory. Kostner as well is even more highly revered than before handling an appalling bronze medal verdict by the judges as opposed to the silver or even gold she deserved, with the class and dignity she is known for.

Rubirosa said:

Zing! Seriously- you don't get it. Judging in Vancouver with KSU official on panel was fair. Judiging in Sochi with the wife of Russian official wasn't fair. Fair is only when Yuna wins. When she doesn't- its not fair.

I am glad that official KSU complain happened. When Yuna fans committe crimes against Adelina- people can say it's some individuals' doing. When Yuna choose to stay away when her fans committe crimes against her underage rival- people can say it's shameless choice of one athlete. When Korean TV channels show disrespectful programs about Adelina- people can say it's private media business doing. Things are different when the official government body does the thing it does- they represent the country, the government, the nation. Complain was a boderline when the whole whining case over Yuna's loss became officially a comedy show. Now Yuna got the legacy thanks to her fans and federation as the idol who inspired crimes and the athlete who was defacto represented by her federation as a sore loser. The funny thing is her fans and federation don't understand that they are making Yuna no favor.

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First of all, the TV show was engaging in parody and social commentary. These may be concepts that you don't understand because they may not exist where you're from. I think it is terrible what people are saying about Adelina on that Facebook page, but nobody should have a right from stopping reasonable social commentary! So let's just put that in perspective.

As far as the Korean judge being a member of the local federation, I agree that it is possible that a conflict of interest existed in Vancouver, but that is far different than the potential for cheating. Does this mean Yuna skate well enough for gold in 2010? Yes. Did Adelina in 2014? No.

There are plenty of red flags in 2014 that weren't present in 2010. As somebody pointed out on another thread Alexander Lakernik (the technical controller for the event) is a not only in a powerful position in the Russian Ice Federation (Vice-President) but also in the ISU (The Chairman of the ISU Technical Committee). He has the power to potentially influence judges/officials who disagree with him. As far as the judges, in addition from Mrs. Piseev, and the disgraced Yuri, there are other possible problems with the makeup of the panel that should be examined.

Whatever its motive, the KSU is well within its rights to lodge a complaint and to investigate this.

cooper said:

did you know?? for those mao bots yuna is a devil in disguise..

once again for the record yuna never ask her federation to file an appeal..and even asked them to let it rest.. but it came from public pressure and politicians in korea.. demanding an answer..while the incomptent ksu hesitated for the past few days..and finally made the decision..while yuna just respect that decision..

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I am not Mao's fans either, currently I have no interest in the female field. but I have to say, all the ladies here have better nerves than the men. lol anyways, I think filing an appeal is necessary because the judging is dubious and everyone demands the transparence in judging. It's just I think it might be too late now. But who knows, I hope at least they will stop the anonymous scoring for goods.

pangtongfan said:

Oh clueless Sotbot you forget the biggest difference. Nobody questions that Yu Na was the runaway and rightful winner of Sochi. In fact Yu Na has NEVER won an event controversially her entire career, only lost them controversially. That is obviously a huge contrast to Sotnikova in Sochi where 99% of experts and fans (most who are not even fans of Yu Na Kim) around the world view her win as a farce and purposely orchestrated.

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Sorry, but this is a patently untrue statement, otherwise there wouldn't be so many posts arguing the case for and against the validity of the OGM result.