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- Mar 7, 2011
Funny how the SotBots always ignore these facts.
South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging
- Thread starter avantgardener
- Start date
Funny how the SotBots always ignore these facts.
So I gather you're OK with the Japanese judge hugging Hanyu after his performance?
Or, I dunno, with the VICE PRESIDENT of Korean Skating Union serving as a judge on both SP and LP panels in Vancouver?
I think you will need to learn a sad, painful truth that whatever "we" do will have absolutely zero effect on what is up with Adelina. Are you under the impression that whatever you put under the rug has the slightest difference?
I don't think it's about what you personally see as problematic. The rules privilege skaters who don't use a lot of crossovers over those who do. One behavior is rewarded and the other isn't. Of course a person who uses crossovers generates more speed and covers more ice - what do you think crossovers are for, getting coffee? And even "insignificant" and "not specifically difficult", whatever that means, transitions are rewarded more than no transitions at all per the rulebook.
What "other Korean skaters"?
Reply -
? It is not at all true that Yuna did only crossovers without any transitions between the elements. What is your intension? I was simply answering to those who think she used too many crossovers, ( and for your information, they did NOT question the transitions Yuna had, ) and i gave my opinion on it, i.e. you need to think of crossovers/ice coverage. Or you can also consider the speed the skater generates. Whether the number of crossovers was too much or unnecessary or not will be determined by how comparably big this ratio is, but Yuna's might be even smaller compared to the others, thanks to her big ice coverage. That was what I meant by 'not problematic' since number does not seem too much. And for the record, she put at least one linking movement in between her elements.
And I found "getting coffee" part very unnecessary and even bit insulting.
? It is not at all true that Yuna did only crossovers without any transitions between the elements. What is your intension? I was simply answering to those who think she used too many crossovers, ( and for your information, they did NOT question the transitions Yuna had, ) and i gave my opinion on it, i.e. you need to think of crossovers/ice coverage. Or you can also consider the speed the skater generates. Whether the number of crossovers was too much or unnecessary or not will be determined by how comparably big this ratio is, but Yuna's might be even smaller compared to the others, thanks to her big ice coverage. That was what I meant by 'not problematic' since number does not seem too much. And for the record, she put at least one linking movement in between her elements.
And I found "getting coffee" part very unnecessary and even bit insulting.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
Actually you and your group are repeating, over and over the same points, sadly, they don't match with the reality of Yuna's skate....crossovers, gain speed, jump,...crossovers, gain speed, jump, ....crossovers, gain speed, jump...slow spins, slow steps, ...twirl, pose, twirl... pose.... there's not much choreography, no crescendo, no "wow" steps combinations to remember. Sorry, not convinced that Up is Down, Left is Right. Stay classy.
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- Feb 23, 2014
The Op is making a fair point. If you don't have a great deal of ice coverage like Adelina, you don't need to do the same amount of cross-overs. If you have to go further you need more speed. As it stood Adelina's opening jump combination could have used another cross-over or two because her lack of speed should have cost her a UR on the 3T. As far as speed is concerned, early in Adelina's program she used her arms to generate speed (and covered it up as Choreo). I was almost convinced that she was trying to fly.
She would have done better with the cross-overs.- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
The Op is making a fair point. If you don't have a great deal of ice coverage like Adelina, you don't need to do the same amount of cross-overs. If you have to go further you need more speed. As it stood Adelina's opening jump combination could have used another cross-over or two because her lack of speed should have cost her a UR on the 3T. As far as speed is concerned, early in Adelina's program she used her arms to generate speed (and covered it up as Choreo). I was almost convinced that she was trying to fly.
This is why Adelina was marked so highly, she managed the power to perform bigger jumps without the need to do lots of crossovers, thus she prefaced her jumps with transitions and linking steps, this is something prized by judges. Hanyu is the same, he manages this sudden explosion to propel himself into the air seemingly on the spot, this is prized. Junior skaters need to do lots of these crossovers to gain speed and power. At the top tier, they try to make the rest of the choreography memorable, not their crossovers. Adelina is supposed to VISIBLY MOVE her arms and upper body, in synch with very fast and difficult steps combinations to merit Level 4 Steps Sequence. Again speed and these upper body movements are all valued as they make the element more difficult to perform, thus are graded Level 4. If you don't get any of this of course you don't "get" her GOEs and why Yuna's GOEs are tepid.
How about Reality of Sot's skating as I pointed out in the first few paragraphs? Yes I repeated my point again. Since no one in your 'group' , whatever it means, could provide any proper answer so far. How about her under-rotated 3T? How about her definite flutz? How about her stsq lv?
Talking about stsq, Yuna had definite, beautiful poise and moments, clear edge control, plus 20 more steps than Sot, only to gain lv 3.
Again Yuna did have linking movements between her elements. Sandra Bezic pointed out the same, and she would score Yuna PCS higher than Sot as a choreographer herself.
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- Dec 29, 2013
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I think because of this scandal and OTT posters not only has Adelina's Olympic performance been ruined for me but so too has Yuna's. I don't think I'll ever watch them again! Maybe in a few years I'll revisit Yuna's SP but honestly Im afraid maybe not. Somehow watching Yulia fall and get crushed is less depressing! I will however watch Yuna at 2013 Worlds all day long.
Yuna will always be one of my favorites but I'm just going to try forget the end of her career.
Yuna will always be one of my favorites but I'm just going to try forget the end of her career.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
And Adelina played tug-of-war with herself, flapped her arms like a bird, flung her arms back and chest forward and skated with a pretend mirror and that passes as art? Please.
The she did pretty much everything you accused Yuna of (except with fewer cross-overs, so she skated slower and had less ice coverage).
Yuna's performance was far more nuanced and thoughtful. Not a recycled junior program that lacked maturity.
The only wow factor Adelina had was on the height of some of her jumps and the speed of some of her spins (although I also said "wow" when i saw how far her sit spin traveled
). She skated slower compared to Yuna, Adelina and Mao. She also had the poorest ice coverage of the four. Adelina's footwork and edges were not clean. She missed on a couple of turns and two steps sequences that should have only given her Level 3. She was Tech Paneled, GOE'd and PCS''d onto the top tier of the podium by a wave of partisan cheers (or by something more sinister).- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
But she's not supposed to use her arms to visibly gain momentum which she clearly did (very juniorish). She also did not skate faster than Carolina and Yuna. She should not have gotten Level 4 for stsq because she failed to fulfill the requirement. many of her jumps while high, were not far. They were almost straight up and down. This is a conscious aspect of her technique to sacrifice distance for height. As the criteria states both height and distance, she should not be rewarded full marks for this.
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- Nov 12, 2013
It isn't the number of steps or the length of time that determine the levels, but the DIFFICULTY as defined by the rulebook. Adelina's StSq was faster, more complex, with lots of upper body movements and difficult combinations. There was a long thread on this, so I won't go there, but there were these other criteria for Level 4 that weren't even discussed in that thread, many of which I didn't see in Yuna's slower, longer stsq.
As for the URs, Yuna had those too, eg. very obvious in her 3S, and were not called for them.
I am not a Yuna hater, which is why I don't go around demanding her GOE scores be struck off because I have videos of her URs. Sometimes they are called, sometimes not, depending on the angle of the Tech Panel. So if they were biased for Adelina then why did Yuna get a pass as well? In the end, URs calls are erratic, but Yuna profited at Sochi (and other competitions) as well from lenient Techs.
Can you at least quote or provide the link to support what you wrote, or what your argument is based on? What is those rules that were not discussed in that long thread? What is your argument against BoP's analysis on stsq?
And what 3sal are you talking about from Yuna? Clearly not that I know of. Of course she did not have free pass to UR call, but neither did Sot. Sot has history of problems with 3lz combination yet Yuna never suffered any UR issues before. (She rarely got one unless she fell.) so i want to know and check myself what Sal you are talking about. Are you sure it was short of 2.75 revolution?
And what about flutz from Sot?
And what 3sal are you talking about from Yuna? Clearly not that I know of. Of course she did not have free pass to UR call, but neither did Sot. Sot has history of problems with 3lz combination yet Yuna never suffered any UR issues before. (She rarely got one unless she fell.) so i want to know and check myself what Sal you are talking about. Are you sure it was short of 2.75 revolution?
And what about flutz from Sot?
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- Nov 12, 2013
Sorry, it's really a load of...ahem...Adelina's jumps have both height and distance, Yuna's were smaller in comparison despite her attempts at generating greater momentum. You don't seem to understand what is valued or diminishing in a skate. Adios!
And Adelina played tug-of-war with herself, flapped her arms like a bird, flung her arms back and chest forward and skated with a pretend mirror and that passes as art? Please.
The she did pretty much everything you accused Yuna of (except with fewer cross-overs, so she skated slower and had less ice coverage).
Yuna's performance was far more nuanced and thoughtful. Not a recycled junior program that lacked maturity.
The only wow factor Adelina had was on the height of some of her jumps and the speed of some of her spins (although I also said "wow" when i saw how far her sit spin traveled
Adelina skated slower compared to Adelina?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
What was discussed was only Level Features 1, whether Adelina achieved Complexity of turns and steps.
This is why when you said Yuna skated longer or had more steps than Adelina and thus merit level 4, it's....what....?:no:
There are also Level Features 2, 3, 4, each with their distinct criteria (covered in detail in the url/pdf below, which i won't paste here).
So did Yuna skate fulfill these other level features to merit level 4? No one really went into it. I'm not going to waste my life replaying every step in front of a screen to prove a point against Yuna, this isn't a matter of life or death to me.
https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles.pdf
Level features
1)Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of turns
and steps throughout(compulsory)
2) Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in
total for each rotational direction
3) Use of upper body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
4)Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns (
rockers, counters, brackets, twizzles, loops)
executed
with a clear rhythm
within the sequence
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
You keep talking about speed and Sot, but if you look at the fan cams on Youtube, it is clear that Adelina is the slower than Yuna (from a bird's eye view). Then you say the Yuna does more cross-overs to generate speed, yet Adelina's sequence is faster?
Adelina sequences may appear faster, but their duration is derived from the fact that she actual does less than Yuna. In truth Yuna did more steps (according to BoP's analysis) and that accounts for the quicker time Adelina completed her sequence in.
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- Feb 23, 2014
Well of course Adelina skated slower than Adelina. She skated faster than her too, lol.
I think we can guess that I meant that Adelina skated slower than Yuna, but thanks for pointing out my blunder.
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