South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 24, 2014

Melon said:
Obviously since you're from Moscow. This protest is a complaint that there was a bias in judging, which there WAS. There was ALWAYS a judging bias in almost EVERY event in figure skating. This protest, if goes in a right direction, would change the judging system, in a way that no judging would be QUESTIONED. Even if this PROTEST is disregarded by ISU, I still want, AT LEAST, an open panel judging.

It is impossible. Figure skating will always be in between art and true sport such as track-n-field (I actually was a long jumper). And you cannot judge art objectively. I see nothing in Pollock but it commands $100M at auctions sometimes. Open judging is fine. Will it help? In 6.0 era I do remember cases when judges from certain countries consistently gave lower marks to Soviet Union's skaters than everybody else. Were they penalized? No, of course. I think, the idea to make it closed was in fact to make it more objective. Otherwise the judges would be under the big pressure. What can be done, I believe, is the diving or ski jumping approach when the highest and the lowest marks are discarded. That would be smart.

Mathman · Apr 24, 2014

[email protected] said:
It is impossible. Figure skating will always be in between art and true sport such as track-n-field (I actually was a long jumper). And you cannot judge art objectively. I see nothing in Pollock but it commands $100M at auctions sometimes. Open judging is fine. Will it help? In 6.0 era I do remember cases when judges from certain countries consistently gave lower marks to Soviet Union's skaters than everybody else. Were they penalized? No, of course. I think, the idea to make it closed was in fact to make it more objective. Otherwise the judges would be under the big pressure. What can be done, I believe, is the diving or ski jumping approach when the highest and the lowest marks are discarded. That would be smart.

The highest and lowest marks are discarded in figure skating. :yes:

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 24, 2014

Mathman said:
The highest and lowest marks are discarded in figure skating. :yes:

Did not know that. What's the problem with Shekhovtsova then?

Ophelia · Apr 24, 2014

^Conflict of interest. Have you been following the controversy?

Mathman · Apr 24, 2014

[email protected] said:
Did not know that. What's the problem with Shekhovtsova then?

I think the concern is that two or more judges working in concert, or a judge who has undue influence over others, can still skew the results.

About conflicts of interest, though, every judge represents his or her own national federation and is part of the national team charged with bringing home as many medals as possible.

Meoima · Apr 24, 2014

[email protected] said:
Did not know that. What's the problem with Shekhovtsova then?

I have no problem with her, unlike many people here. She has been the judge for a long time. It's not just one month or two. If people have problem with her, they should have said it long time ago.

I only have problem with the anonymous judging. Yup, let's just say the judges are pressured by their fed and score their unfavourite lower and their favourite higher. It's normal and it happens all the time. But when that happens, we need to know who to blame.

If a skater performs really well (a clean and beautiful Patrick Chan, for example), most of the judges give him 90s PCS but one or two judges give him 70 or 80 PCS, we will know that judges might be biased. I don't think the judges would be that stupid, to score their unfavourite so low if he/she knows that the whole world would eventually know it's him/her who scored unfairly.

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 24, 2014

lilahozi said:
^Conflict of interest. Have you been following the controversy?

In the system when the highest and the lowest score are discarded it is irrelevant. It means that if she is corrupt, her high score for Sotnikova and loew score for Kim would be not counted.

skatedreamer · Apr 24, 2014

Hoping this doesn't morph into a clone/extension of the Judging Controversy thread....

Ophelia · Apr 24, 2014

[email protected] said:
In the system when the highest and the lowest score are discarded it is irrelevant. It means that if she is corrupt, her high score for Sotnikova and loew score for Kim would be not counted.

It's a matter of principle. There shouldn't be a conflict of interest present in any judging panel (not just restricted to athletics).

Alba · Apr 24, 2014

skatedreamer said:
Hoping this doesn't morph into a clone/extension of the Judging Controversy thread....

This is from the beginning a clone/extension of the Judging Controversy thread. After all, it's a complaint about the judges so...

Alba · Apr 24, 2014

Meoima said:
I only have problem with the anonymous judging. Yup, let's just say the judges are pressured by their fed and score their unfavourite lower and their favourite higher. It's normal and it happens all the time. But when that happens, we need to know who to blame.

That's the problem I have as well. Not that it will change anything, but still is better when you put a name.
At least people will not speculate and blame other people without any evidence.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2014

lilahozi said:
It's a matter of principle. There shouldn't be a conflict of interest present in any judging panel (not just restricted to athletics).

How do you suggest doing this? I'm not against it. But why now all of a sudden must everything change? Federations have been sending people from within their Federation to judge since way before Sochi. Do we then have to cut loose say Shin Amano who seems feared by most but overall honest IMO. He seems like a fair example of someone who violates your conflict of interest Claus because he is on record criticizing judges for not Ratifying Mao's 3a. I'm trying to ask this as fairly as I can. Please take it as such.

sk8in · Apr 24, 2014

You put up barriers between the federations, officials, the skaters and the judges. If a judge is caught fraternizing with any of the above they lose their job, period. Federations should all contribute to funding of the judges salaries, but those judges should technically work under the ISU---and be trained outside of their local premises. When a judge comes to a federation it should be like an auditor. There is so much precedent for this kind of thing, I'm not sure how anyone can go to the 'how is that even possible' line of argument.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2014

Alba said:
That's the problem I have as well. Not that it will change anything, but still is better when you put a name.
At least people will not speculate and blame other people without any evidence.

I honestly don't mind anonymous judging IF the protocol sheet would explain in writing why anything over/under -1 or +1 GOE is awarded. I want the bullet points used andI want it explained to me why. That is all.

Anonymous judging could help a judge escape pressure from any of the Feds. Their own or others who try to pressure them. At least it sounds good in theory.

I'd rather be mad about the reason a score was given than at who gave it. It seems easier to adjust the rules than correct human nature.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2014

sk8in said:
You put up barriers between the federations, officials, the skaters and the judges. If a judge is caught fraternizing with any of the above they lose their job, period. Federations should all contribute to funding of the judges salaries, but those judges should technically work under the ISU---and be trained outside of their local premises. When a judge comes to a federation it should be like an auditor. There is so much precedent for this kind of thing, I'm not sure how anyone can go to the 'how is that even possible' line of argument.

Sounds good. I see nothing wrong there.

But is it practical? Can the Feds afford to pay that many judges and the already existing coaches? Will training ultimately suffer? Will the talent then decrease? Mostly....do any Feds posses endowments or have extra money/investments laying around to take on the extra costs? These issues would need addressed.

Meoima · Apr 24, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I honestly don't mind anonymous judging IF the protocol sheet would explain in writing why anything over/under -1 or +1 GOE is awarded. I want the bullet points used andI want it explained to me why. That is all.
Anonymous judging could help a judge escape pressure from any of the Feds. Their own or others who try to pressure them. At least it sounds good in theory.
I'd rather be mad about the reason a score was given than at who gave it. It seems easier to adjust the rules than correct human nature.

I don't think judges have that much time right after the skaters finish their performance. Remember they only have less than 4 minutes. Stop the anonymous judging would be much easier.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2014

Meoima said:
I don't think judges have that much time right after the skaters finish their performance. Remember they only have less than 4 minutes. Stop the anonymous judging would be much easier.

Maybe but why couldn't the judges release the scores as usual and have 24 hrs to fill on the comments? If the responsibility to explain a mark exists would it not impact the scoring?

I think it's equally sketchy to have the people who send you see your marks. If you're fair and the fed doesn't approve we could lose fair/harsh judging that isn't influenced too. The influence or human nature remains still by way of expectations.

Meoima · Apr 24, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
Maybe but why couldn't the judges release the scores as usual and have 24 hrs to fill on the comments? If the responsibility to explain a mark exists would it not impact the scoring?
I think it's equally sketchy to have the people who send you see your marks. If you're fair and the fed doesn't approve we could lose fair/harsh judging that isn't influenced too. The influence or human nature remains still through expectations.

I don't think so, since it's subjective, the judges would probably just give out an unreasonable score, and say, I score him like this because I like it, I think it's not good. It's not enough for transparency in judging.

The whole world need to know how you give out a score. Yes, the score might be a little bit lower but since people will eventually know if you are playing fair or not, you will have to give out a score at least not as bad as your federation want you to do.

Just image Canada judge gave a bad score to Yulia, simply unfair but he/she can get away with it just because of the anonymous judging. Frankly, his/her score will probably be recorded by ISU. They know which one give which score, they are not naive. Because of the anonymous judging, Canada fed can always tell its judges: "Score all the Russian girls lower than anyone else. No one will know anyways." <--------- It can happen you know. And frankly, it happens all the time.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 24, 2014

Point taken. I still think fixing the scoring is more realistic than changing human nature but maybe that's just too cliche for this type of issue. We can all agree something needs fixed.

skatedreamer · Apr 24, 2014

Alba said:
This is from the beginning a clone/extension of the Judging Controversy thread. After all, it's a complaint about the judges so...

Yes, of course. My real issue is that the JC thread sometimes deteriorated into a lot of nationalistic bashing and that's what I'd like to avoid in this one. I got nervous after reading an earlier post that seemed to be going in that direction.

To be sure, the nastiness didn't happen all the time and seemed to come from a just a few people -- mostly trolls, I guess. Hopefully, they've all gone back to wherever and any disagreements here will stay friendly and respectful. The thing to remember is that regardless of any differences of opinion, we're all posting here because we love figure skating and want it to grow and stay healthy. In that respect, I believe that what we have in common is so much more important than our politics and/or which skaters we support.

On a more practical note: has the text of the complaint been published anywhere? We've been hearing a lot about what the KSU might have been planning to say, but do we know yet what they actually did say in the document that went to the ISU? This inquiring mind wants to know!

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[email protected]

Medalist

Mathman

[email protected]

Medalist

Ophelia

Mathman

Meoima

Match Penalty

[email protected]

Medalist

skatedreamer

Ophelia

Alba

Alba

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

sk8in

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Meoima

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Meoima

Match Penalty

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

skatedreamer

Similar threads

Connect with us