South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging | Page 73 | Golden Skate

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Drivingmissdaisy, you've made your technical case for Sotnikova winning. How do you explain her PCS scores being higher than Kostner's and on par with Kim? (Sorry too lazy to go back in the thread to see if you mentioned it)

I'd be interested in this, too.

I can understand her PE/EX and IN being way up there but the others... Is there some rule that says that a judge can't give, say, 6.75 for SS and 9.75 for PE/EX if the performance really does merit that (and Adelina, for example, performed the heck out of that program)?

I was wondering about this during Worlds since I felt that for example Carolina's (whom I adore) SS in her LP merited 9s but her Execution sure wasn't higher than say 7... whilst in the Olys both were most definitely in the 9-10 range. If there's some maximum point difference allowed between the different components then I'd understand why all five are so close to each other even when what happens on the ice doesn't reflect it.

Another discrepancy that I find baffling is little PCS fluctuation between competitions, in fact there's almost always an upward trend. Is it really due to reputation that one skater can get nines for PE/EX for the same program in different competitions, even though in competition X the skater goes pristine clean and in competition Y falls 2-3 times and otherwise messes up (two-footing, traveling spins etc). Not that he has much of a reputation yet, I'm thinking Jason Brown's Oly individual LP, where he got higher PCS for a much sloppier program than in the team LP which had one fall but was otherwise cleanish. A better example might be Patrick Chan's multiple falls in multiple events - is it fair that he gets very high points for Execution when the elements are not really executed very well?

Or have I just misunderstood the whole PCS system? If so, I'm sorry :laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Of the three, I'd probably have Adelina highest in TR, IN and PE, Carolina highest in SS, and Yuna highest in CH. To me, Adelina had the best performance and most transitions so anything related to that I'd have her ahead of the others.

Interpretation and performance I would definitely have Adelina 3rd behind Kim and Kostner. If I wanted to be a real stickler I could say YuNa's level of interpretation and performance isn't as good as what we're USED to seeing from her, but even on a bad day, she's much better than Sotnikova.

And saying Kostner's level of interpretation is secondary to Sotnikova is wrong (although you're entitled to your opinion, of course). I'm glad the judges at least gave her the highest IN scores, but to have Sotnikova comparatively 0.18 less than Kostner is saying she's on par with them. (it's a wrong as Lipnitskaia being higher than Mao and having just 0.07 less in SS).

Given the occasion, I can understand the judges giving Sotnikova higher PE marks - I mean, she did perform very well! I'd still have Kostner with the highest PE. Kostner went clean with an artistically brilliant skate and certainly deserves higher interpretation (the level of maturity was palpable) - I can't believe one judge gave her an 8.75. Adelina probably gets a bit of an edge in TR... I agree that Kostner's TR is a bit lacking in the second half. Under SS, Sotnikova should be well behind Kim and Kostner, not 9.18 to their 9.21 and 9.14. Sotnikova doesn't hit her edges as cleanly or as deeply, and her speed is inferior to Kostner (and probably Kim too).

A great way to compare SS is the step sequence. Look at all three and it's unbelievably apparent that Sotnikova can't hold a candle to them.
 

nguyenghita

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
To me, Adelina had the best performance and most transitions so anything related to that I'd have her ahead of the others.
I don't understand why people keep discussing with this member when she/he again and again show her/his view about this issue far different from us. In her/his opinion, Adelina is the best no matter what so the result was so fair, yeah of course.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I was wondering about this during Worlds since I felt that for example Carolina's (whom I adore) SS in her LP merited 9s but her Execution sure wasn't higher than say 7...

I thoroughly agree. I mean, SS shouldn't really change drastically from one performance to the very next (unless you skate with lesser speed than usual). Over time, yes.

However, Performance/Execution should depend on, well, how they executed that performance. It's ridiculous that Kostner's 7-triple Olympic LP gets 9.43 for execution, but her 3-triple Worlds LP gets a 8.93 (not to mention, Kostner got personal best PCS with the World LP).
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Sometimes a skater falls and can pop right back up and into their program and continue to deliver. Not always but sometimes. The skater is already dinged on the BV dropping in the case of UR then -GOE and also a 1pt deduction to the overall score. So really that 8.45 you see in Execution is 7.45. A lot of times a fall will cause a skater to miss a planned transition and that score will drop too. I can see a case for execution not dropping drastically IF the skater can pop back up and into the program. Now if the fall effects the rest of their performance and its visible then of course the execution should begin to slide also.

I agree that PCS is just a tool used for judges to achieve their placements. It's what's left of 6.0 and often the most controversial and numbers appear from nowhere. Hmm

Maybe the 1pt deduction should be removed from the TES and applied to the PCS. It would be the same thing but would look better in the end. Or remove the deduction altogether and leave the judges to apply the negatives of a fall at their discretion in the PCS.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Sometimes a skater falls and can pop right back up and into their program and continue to deliver. Not always but sometimes. The skater is already dinged on the BV dropping in the case of UR then -GOE and also a 1pt deduction to the overall score. So really that 8.45 you see in Execution is 7.45. A lot of times a fall will cause a skater to miss a planned transition and that score will drop too. I can see a case for execution not dropping drastically IF the skater can pop back up and into the program. Now if the fall effects the rest of their performance and its visible then of course the execution should begin to slide also.

I agree that PCS is just a tool used for judges to achieve their placements. It's what's left of 6.0 and often the most controversial and numbers appear from nowhere. Hmm

Yep, and now that judges can give 9's like candy, they're reserving those for the skaters who they want to win, and keeping perfect skates from second-tier skaters in the mid-high 7's -- a difference of about 10 points. When 9's were more rare, top skaters had to actually skate well instead of rely on a PCS cushion of 10-12 points over a second-tier skater who reels off 7-triples -- i.e. Kostner compared to Pogorilaya/Edmunds.

Like, it's absolutely insane that Edmunds was a mere 0.32 ahead of Kostner in the freeskate at Worlds. You present both programs to any casual viewer and they would be astounded that a 7-triple program, including two lutzes and two flips, is similarly scored to a 3-triple program. This needs to be amended.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Maybe the 1pt deduction should be removed from the TES and applied to the PCS. It would be the same thing but would look better in the end. Or remove the deduction altogether and leave the judges to apply the negatives of a fall at their discretion in the PCS.

That's not going to happen. Judges under 6.0 would still give 5.7 and 5.8 for Technical Merit when a top skater fell, even though the mandatory deduction is supposed to be 0.4. Or they would give 5.6 - i.e. if the skater hadn't fallen, their technical merit would have been a 6.0 (which obviously is meant for exceptional skates). And this is when judges weren't anonymous!

Now that judges are anonymous, they don't have to give a crap about reflecting deductions or errors in their PCS score. One judge gave Kostner a 9.5 for performance/execution at Worlds... what would he/she have given if Kostner went clean -- 10.75?

If anything, the fall deduction isn't severe enough, even with the GOE and -1 deduction.
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
^CSG I totally agree with both your posts there. It's like, do they not see how ridiculous this is?
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Under SS, Sotnikova should be well behind Kim and Kostner, not 9.18 to their 9.21 and 9.14. Sotnikova doesn't hit her edges as cleanly or as deeply, and her speed is inferior to Kostner (and probably Kim too).

A great way to compare SS is the step sequence. Look at all three and it's unbelievably apparent that Sotnikova can't hold a candle to them.

It's because the numbers don't mean anything, they are just placeholders to help the officials fix the results.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I don't understand why people keep discussing with this member when she/he again and again show her/his view about this issue far different from us. In her/his opinion, Adelina is the best no matter what so the result was so fair, yeah of course.

This can be said for the "other side" as well. ;) Besides, do you discuss with people that share your opinion only or also with people which thinks differently?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I don't understand why people keep discussing with this member when she/he again and again show her/his view about this issue far different from us. In her/his opinion, Adelina is the best no matter what so the result was so fair, yeah of course.

This topic is open to all. You can go to yunashouldvewon.com/forums and never hear dmd.
 

nguyenghita

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Hm, I don't mean all the discussing here, just with drivingmissdaisy. From the very start till now, this member is so consistent in believe that Adelina won fairly and deservely, tried to defend her tireless. I think any member who against his/her idea had already know that, so it just make no sense to start discussing with her/him so repeatedly, not a few times but countless times.

I find it funny because this member is the one who believe this whole issue is not the scandal by anymean, everyone is fine with the result except the Koreans and the "bots". But while I read all the post in all the "scandal" theards in this forum, and I found that he/she is one of members who are more active than everyone else. I mean, if that't not the scandal, then what all the posting for? The fine result never caused all this kind of annoying.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Not true. A number of other posters have defended Adelina and Yulia, including Sam Skwanch. Most of them have dropped this fruitless argument by this time. Their lady won and has the hardware to show for it. They will never convince those who thought either Yuna or Carolina should have won, so they are discussing other topics.


In the parlance of poker, "Losers cry, 'Deal.'"

Not winners. They are off celebrating and counting their winnings.
 
Last edited:

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Not true. A number of other posters have defended Adelina and Yulia, including Sam Skwanch. Most of them have dropped this fruitless argument by this time. Their lady won and has the hardware to show for it. They will never convince those who thought either Yuna or Carolina should have won, so they are discussing other topics.


In the parlance of poker, "Losers cry, 'Deal.'"

Not winners. They are off celebrating and counting their winnings.

This. :thumbsup:
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Not true. A number of other posters have defended Adelina and Yulia, including Sam Skwanch. Most of them have dropped this fruitless argument by this time. Their lady won and has the hardware to show for it. They will never convince those who thought either Yuna or Carolina should have won, so they are discussing other topics.


In the parlance of poker, "Losers cry, 'Deal.'"

Not winners. They are off celebrating and counting their winnings.

Haha, OT, but I watched one of my Korean dramas this morning where one guy totally won a game of Texas hold 'em despite tremendous odds and the loser was flashing more cash saying "I want to
play another round!" But the winner just laughed and cashed out.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, the old poker saying is true.


In political elections, it is never the winner who asks for a recount, either.
 

Vanshilar

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Not true. A number of other posters have defended Adelina and Yulia, including Sam Skwanch. Most of them have dropped this fruitless argument by this time. Their lady won and has the hardware to show for it. They will never convince those who thought either Yuna or Carolina should have won, so they are discussing other topics.

I'd have been more convinced if good arguments were actually presented by defenders of different skaters. Instead the forum is just treated to endless variations of "well that's just your opinion" "you're just a hater/basher" "everybody agrees with me and disagrees with you" "well the judges scored that way and therefore I'm right" and so forth. You only need to look at the first page of the footwork thread to see this in its full glory at derailing threads into attacks on forum posters rather than discussing the subject of the threads themselves. If people could actually make arguments on their merits (especially with people claiming to be attorneys etc. -- so they are fully aware that those are derailing fallacious arguments, or at least should from their training) and back it up with evidence and reasoning (not just state their position and call it fact) then they should do so, but the signal-to-noise ratio is extremely low. I don't see much discussion of the actual merits of different performances; I'd offhandedly estimate probably only around 2-5% of the posts in these threads actually talk about the subject of the thread.

If anything, it shows to me how much people truly believe their position has merit based on how much they rely on such ad hominem arguments instead of being able to support their position with evidence.
 

flyushka

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Not true. A number of other posters have defended Adelina and Yulia, including Sam Skwanch. Most of them have dropped this fruitless argument by this time. Their lady won and has the hardware to show for it. They will never convince those who thought either Yuna or Carolina should have won, so they are discussing other topics.

So true. I've long ago decided that in politics and figure skating, there's no convincing anyone of any argument, ever. People are way too passionate (even militant!) about their beliefs to make rational discussion possible. For any close result at the Olympics, it probably takes a minimum of 10 years for people to even begin to discuss it rationally. See Nagano ladies event, SLC pairs, etc. For the topic at hand, the only people left discussing this are 1. those who are super angry about it, and 2. those who enjoy provoking the first group :laugh:. Everyone else is carrying on living their lives. Lots of people who are very educated about skating were fine with the results, others thought Carolina won and Yuna should be no higher than 3rd, and every other combination. Bottom line - all of these beliefs are valid since it was a close competition; they are just opinions and everyone is entitled to one even if they don't align with yours! There are many different aspects of skating that people view differently and admire in different ways. For instance, I see skating primarily as a sport and viewed the competition through that lens. As a result, I couldn't feel bad that the best athlete on the night won.

FWIW, Adelina isn't really "my lady" (does she even have ubers? maybe a handful in Russia?). I'm actually a big fan of Yuna, Carolina and Mao and would have been happy to see any of them win the OGM. I also hadn't seen any skating for the past two years due to working abroad, which was a great way to watch the Olympics as unbiased as possible, with no preconceived notions and no vested interest in anybody winning. I remember during the SP, by the last group I was basically just waiting for Mao to skate, but when Adelina skated I was like, wow, who is that?? Her skating stood out to me big time and I had no doubt that it would be essentially tied with Yuna and Carolina. Big, powerful, confident skating.

To answer the PCS question, I have to say I found Carolina's LP kind of empty. And I was surprised to find she looked a little slow out there. Still great flow and edges of course, and I was thrilled to see her skate so well at the Olympics, but it wouldn't surprise me if she took a bit of a PCS hit for the long pauses, posing and lack of transitions. As for Yuna, I had noticed during the practices she wasn't skating with quite the power she used to - then I found out she'd been injured in the fall and figured that explained it. I also wondered if her planned content (no more 2A-3toe) was going to leave her vulnerable. Her LP was also a little on the empty side. I didn't find Adelina so incredibly polished or anything, and the edges aren't as strong as the other two, but overall it really was very strong and checked the PCS boxes well. I've heard people who were there say her speed and power was super impressive live and it didn't translate to TV very well. Her skating was very well received almost unanimously by the judges in both SP and LP, even with two different panels. Were *all* these judges bought?
 
Top