What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Same here! I am ashamed of myself but I just don't see anything in Michelle's skating apart from good jumps. I hope one day i'll finally see that magic, I'd love to. Yes, I too got interested in Julia becouse something in her reminds me of Sasha, not just her flexibility - I think Julia's going too far in that regard, it scares me really. But unfortunately Julia lacks Sasha's misicality and thats one of the things I love so much about Sasha - you could virtually see every note going through her entire body. Julia apprears not to be listening to the music at all. Still I'd love to see how Julia will develop

And that is why skaters all have fan bases! Even though I adore Michelle to no end, there are so many skaters I admire for different reasons, and it is so hard to look at someone who has been very successful and not appreciate SOMETHING. I never rooted for Plushy, yet I cannot deny the presence he has every time he steps on the ice, the passion he brings and what an amazing athlete he truly is.

I don't really watch Julia and think Sasha. Both are extremely flexible and have great spins, both have tiny jumps and shallow edges. And I do think both are introverted in presenting their programs. But I can think of other skaters who match that criteria as well. I thnk when all is said and done Julia will be the better skater. I think she has the nerves of steel, consistency and not as afraid to fail that eluded Sasha. But if the media continues to heap pressure on Julia, she might keep being the Jullia we saw in Socchi for the individual, but I'm more likely inclined to believe Sochi Team Julia, and Euro's Julia is more likely to show up.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
For me, Michelle was always the one. As one of you said several posts up, what she had couldn't be copied. But I also loved Sasha. I agree that it was the weakness of her basics (edges and so on) that often did her in, because she couldn't count on her jumps. But from the ankles up, she was exquisite, especially her posture and her positions. I'll always savor her skating programs, though not in the way Michelle's many great performances got to me. Certainly Sasha's skating remains with me far more powerfully than either Tara's or Sarah's, despite their OGMs. I almost never look back at those two skaters' programs, whereas I frequently visit Sasha and especially Michelle on YouTube.
 

KwanIsALegend

Fly On
Medalist
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Well, this is a lovely praise Sasha bash Michelle thread. :rolleye:

Sasha had many chances to beat Michelle, so many times the commentators were gushing over Sasha and saying 'this time she'll win' and she didn't. It is not like it can''t be done, see Tara Lipinski & Irina Slutskaya. But Sasha, sadly, had a problem with concentration. ( see 2003 worlds LP, fall on a spin? Or 2001 Trophee Lalique LP fall while skating backwards? She made silly mistakes that most skaters at her level just don't make.
Tarasova and Robin Wagner both had 'under their breath' comments about Sasha's work ethic. It has been said that between John Nicks and Sasha it was Sasha who called the shots. I think that is why she ultimately went back to him, because she knew she could be the boss.

Sasha has not had a shabby career at all, I know many skaters today who would love to have what Sasha has. Because she won silver when she came back after 2006 Olympics she received a lot of media attention. She became a household name and headlined a lot of shows.

As someone who appreciates artistic skating I enjoyed Sasha's skating although it didn't pull me in. 2006 was very sad for her, even if you are not a fan, you had to feel for her. The OGM was practically in her hand but then she lost it and then Worlds was a huge blow. Who would have thought Kimmie would skate so well?

In 2010 she looked wayyyyyyyyyyy too skinny and her jumps looked so weak. I think she thought she could just saunter back and easily get on the Olympic team. Nagasu, Flatt and Wagner had each been skating all season in GP events, nationals was Sasha's first competition of the season, I think she underestimated them and thought she just needed to show up.

I wouldn't cry too much for her, if you follow her twitter she leads a very glamorous life and hops around the globe all the time.
I am glad she is going to school, good for her on that.

She had great spins, laybacks, extensions and spirals but unless you consistently land your jumps then you are not going to win. It wasn't Michelle's fault that Sasha didn't win. She had opportunity after opportunity.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I don't think Sasha had great musicality. She did have beautiful positions and was very artistic for that reason. And her jumps were really quite good--very tight and fast-- when she landed them. Excellent spins, too. But still, I was left cold by most of her performances.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Kwan had the most magical blade-to-ice skills beyond her consistent skills and eye of the tiger competitive attitude. If you read the book about the 2002 Olympic Pairs debacle, the writer was a fast-tracked US judge and talked about the first time he ever saw Kwan skate was at Regionals when she was around 11 or 12 on a practice and as she went by, someone asked him "did you HEAR that?" and his response was "I didn't hear anything" and the first person's reply to that was "exactly". A skater with those kind blade-to-ice skills comes around maybe once in a generation or once every two generations. THIS is how Kwan was able to excel and succeed and why everything she did was complete and secure. This is also why Cohen could never skate a clean competition (SP+LP) is that her basics were lacking (especially in comparison to Kwan).
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I don't think Sasha had great musicality. She did have beautiful positions and was very artistic for that reason. And her jumps were really quite good--very tight and fast-- when she landed them. Excellent spins, too. But still, I was left cold by most of her performances.

I think she lacked musicality in fact in the early years, but starting in 2002-2003 when she worked with Tarasova she developed excellent musicality, interpretation, and performance skills (even after Tarasova dumped her). That is what Tarasova brought out of her, and remained with her even when no longer together. Remember what Sandra Bezic said after her Romeo and Juliet program at the 2006 Olympics- "the difference between Sasha and almost every other skater in this competition is the others would be skating to Romeo and Juliet, Sasha is Juliet." Doesnt sound like the assement of someone who lacks musical qualities to me.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Well, this is a lovely praise Sasha bash Michelle thread. :rolleye:

That was never the intent of the thread, and nothing in my post implied Kwan bashing or critcism. I am a Kwan uber in fact, and that is evident by many of my past posts, including when I took alot of heat from many posters here for claiming IMO Yu Na Kim is not even in the same league as Michelle, and wouldnt have been even had she won her (clearly deserved) 2nd OGM.
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
What if Sasha consistently skated clean from 2000-2006?

What if Kwan had a 3axel-3toe and quad sal in her arsenal? :p
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
What if Sasha consistently skated clean from 2000-2006?

What if Kwan had a 3axel-3toe and quad sal in her arsenal? :p

The thing is Sasha was usually just 1 or sometimes 2 mistakes away from being perfect. So skating clean wasnt a fantasy for her, even doing it regularly. She was almost right there most of the time. Unlike say Josee Chouinard or Nicole Bobek or Tonya Harding who went out and maybe about 5 mistakes each outing. Now for them it would seem like a fantasy.
 

KwanIsALegend

Fly On
Medalist
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
That was never the intent of the thread, and nothing in my post implied Kwan bashing or critcism. I am a Kwan uber in fact, and that is evident by many of my past posts, including when I took alot of heat from many posters here for claiming IMO Yu Na Kim is not even in the same league as Michelle, and wouldnt have been even had she won her (clearly deserved) 2nd OGM.
I understand you did not intend for this to be a bash Michelle thread, some posters seemed to be going that route.

I agree about Yuna, I watched a lot of her videos last night and although she has exceptional skills and consistency, her choreography, flow across the ice, spirals and extensions are no where near Michelle's level. Michelle had this magical way of moving across the ice, she could be doing next to nothing but the way she did it was stunning and kept you locked onto her. Nothing seemed fake or forced.
But I don't have Michelle blinders on either. I actually think Sasha and Sarah had better laybacks than Michelle. Sasha also had a better Ina Buaer (sp?) than Michelle.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Kwan had the most magical blade-to-ice skills beyond her consistent skills and eye of the tiger competitive attitude. If you read the book about the 2002 Olympic Pairs debacle, the writer was a fast-tracked US judge and talked about the first time he ever saw Kwan skate was at Regionals when she was around 11 or 12 on a practice and as she went by, someone asked him "did you HEAR that?" and his response was "I didn't hear anything" and the first person's reply to that was "exactly". A skater with those kind blade-to-ice skills comes around maybe once in a generation or once every two generations. THIS is how Kwan was able to excel and succeed and why everything she did was complete and secure. This is also why Cohen could never skate a clean competition (SP+LP) is that her basics were lacking (especially in comparison to Kwan).

I love how you put this! This is what I valued in Michelle's technique--and then we add the musicality, the emotional connection to the audience, the consistency, the coolness in competition, the focus, the work ethic....

I remember someone once saying that from the ankles down, few if any could match Michelle, whereas Sasha was a from-the-ankles-up skater.

Obviously I'm also a Michelle uber, though I have no problem conceding that in flexibility moves such as the Ina Bauer and laybacks, many skaters (notably Sasha and of course Shizuka) were superior to her. When Michelle skated, I never minded that those elements weren't present in her program, because so many other aspects of her work were so marvelous.

As for Sasha, I valued her for what she had and spent very little time regretting what she lacked. For a skater with several problems, she did phenomenally well both nationally and internationally. I have no regrets about her career.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I understand you did not intend for this to be a bash Michelle thread, some posters seemed to be going that route.

I agree about Yuna, I watched a lot of her videos last night and although she has exceptional skills and consistency, her choreography, flow across the ice, spirals and extensions are no where near Michelle's level. Michelle had this magical way of moving across the ice, she could be doing next to nothing but the way she did it was stunning and kept you locked onto her. Nothing seemed fake or forced.
But I don't have Michelle blinders on either. I actually think Sasha and Sarah had better laybacks than Michelle. Sasha also had a better Ina Buaer (sp?) than Michelle.

Sarah had some very nice moves in her skating. Combined with tremendous consistency doing some of the hardest jumps and combinations. It is too bad her jump technique was too sketchy with too many possible areas to deduct, and she had too many stylistic flaws, really bad posture, along with terrible Wagner choreography, to ever be anything more than a skater who could medal if others messed up, and could win only if Kwan or Slutskaya bombed.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Put Kwan's name instead of Cohen's and it's true too. If clean, she was unbeatable under US nationals panels.
I fail to see the point.

Well she was clean in 2003, 2004, and 2005 (well sort of in 2005, she doubled a jump) and we are discussing her still losing those years had Sasha not fallen arent we.
 

DaveT

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
But Sasha was never a very good "skater". She had great costumes, great choreography, beautiful positions, always packaged nicely but the actual skating, blade meets the ice, was always sub par, in my mind the results she did have were quite amazing considering her very poor basics. She skipped learning to skate, what you do with your feet, clearly a mastered skill of Kwan and one still unrivaled sans Chan who of course would not compete against ladies. Kwan was a far superior skater to Cohen, not even a close contest. But what Sasha did have was very appealing and perfectly understandable that laymen could be enamored by her not knowing the basic premise of the sport was something she would be more aptly compared to Bonaly than Kwan. Mind you Bonaly achieved what she did through athleticism not beauty like Cohen, but neither ever really learned to "skate" in their own unique ways.
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
i never saw 'it' with sasha, she was one of the most itless skaters i've ever seen

Maybe for you but to countless others, she had "it" and that was what was most frustrating for her fans (which I once was) because we all knew she had it but come competition she habitually faltered (I'm sure she took years off of my lifespan) :eek:hwell:.
 

pETEs (Sasha Fan)

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Well, given that scenario (minus the obscenelly kwan-biased American judges) she'd be a Six-times US National Champion, for sure.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Kwan would have deserved to win in 2004 even if Sasha skated perfectly but, in terms of the fickle judges, it very much depends on what happened the previous season. If Sasha had theoretically won 2003 Nationals and 2003 Worlds, then the judges would have given it to her in 2004 because Kwan would have been considered too old hat. Kwan still would have pulled 2 or 3 of the judges to her side, though, because that performance was astounding.

Well, given that scenario (minus the obscenelly kwan-biased American judges) she'd be a Six-times US National Champion, for sure.

5 at most. She wouldn't win in 2001 or 2002, when Kwan was in good health and far more mature.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
part of reminiscent of sasha was her ur/s and small jumps but didn't skate clean. sasha also took time to understand get artistry of skating but like Julia up her pcs too soon.

Julia isn't more consistent than sasha but she does ur/edges which are called unlike sasha which sasha sometimes was called.

most of the Russian babies does that but aren't called/caught and therefore given undeserving high pc/s or tes.

where older skaters who do skate clean are notice and give then right marks.

sasha was overmarked more often than not like the Russian babies, tara won ogm with small jumps, high pcs/I can go on & on.
about pcs/artistry mark over/scored/overmarked and the controvsery it caused in all aspects of the sport.
yet it doesn't change and rules, people make excuses as to why won, why those marks instead of doing the correct thing and giving/marking them down. or not medaling.

sasha was overmarked and
 
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