World's 2014 Ice Dance Judging Was a Breath of Fresh Air

Ladskater · Mar 29, 2014

Compared to the controversial ice dance judging at the Sochi Olympics, the judging at this World Championships was like a breath of fresh air. Even ice dance coach/ice dance analyzer for the CBC (with Kurt Browning) made the comment that the "judging was the way it should be." All the marks were close, and no favoritism was shown towards any particular ice dance team. It really was a competition as Carol said. It was really wonderful skating and was great to watch each team trying to best each other. Let's hope the ice dance judging can keep improving.

:clap:

Ziggy · Mar 30, 2014

Marks being close is precisely what the problem was, IMO.

As far as I see it, the lack of quality on the elements didn't seem reflected in the GOE very well. Skaters were allowed to get away with some sloppy and flawed elements which wasn't fair to those who executed them to a high standard.

PCS were the usual mess with a lack of variety and strengths and weaknesses not being reflected particularly well. Skating order was a big factor as well with Hurtado/Diaz, for example, drawing the short straw.

fleeting · Mar 30, 2014

Ziggy said:
Marks being close is precisely what the problem was, IMO.

As far as I see it, the lack of quality on the elements didn't seem reflected in the GOE very well. Skaters were allowed to get away with some sloppy and flawed elements which wasn't fair to those who executed them to a high standard.

PCS were the usual mess with a lack of variety and strengths and weaknesses not being reflected particularly well. Skating order was a big factor as well with Hurtado/Diaz, for example, drawing the short straw.

Agree 100%. I will always believe had P/B skated last in the last group, they would have won gold.

H/D were given the short end of the stick, as you said. And W/P had last placement both times, which I believe was a major factor contributing to their silver place finish.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 30, 2014

I/K should not have been given a PCS personal best, no matter how well they skated the rest of that program.

Although with Yuzuru scoring 45+ PCS with a fall, it seemed that the judges actually neglected technical errors. Which I guess was a good thing?!

Except for them making the other skaters' PCS pay for technical errors. :rolleye:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 30, 2014

Results were appropriate though.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I/K should not have been given a PCS personal best, no matter how well they skated the rest of that program.

Although with Yuzuru scoring 45+ PCS with a fall, it seemed that the judges actually neglected technical errors. Which I guess was a good thing?! Except for them making the other skaters' PCS pay for technical errors.

And Machida got 90 PCS for his flappy bird performance.
If Javi did not make mistake which costed him 6-7 points, he would've been the gold medalist. So I think the one who were the least favor to win in that top 3 is Yuzuru.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 30, 2014

Meoima said:
And Machida got 90 PCS for his flappy bird performance.
If Javi did not make mistake which costed him 6-7 points, he would've been the gold medalist. So I think the one who were the least favor to win in that top 3 is Yuzuru.

Huh? He got 91 points with a UR fall and you think he was the least favoured to win?! Reigning OGM and GPF gold? Least favoured?

Javi's mistake cost him 6-7 points because he made it. It's like saying if Gold didn't completely miss the 2A+3T, she would have been bronze. The reality is, she didn't and he didn't hit the jumps needed.

Machida's PCS was pretty high, but so were Hanyu's in his SP and LP. Although I supposed if Hanyu can get 92 PCS with a fall, a clean program with mostly shaking landings should get 91 PCS.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Huh? He got 91 points with a UR fall and you think he was the least favoured to win?! Reigning OGM and GPF gold? Least favoured?

Javi's mistake cost him 6-7 points because he made it. It's like saying if Gold didn't completely miss the 2A+3T, she would have been bronze. The reality is, she didn't and he didn't hit the jumps needed.

Machida's PCS was pretty high, but so were Hanyu's in his SP and LP. Although I supposed if Hanyu can get 92 PCS with a fall, a clean program with mostly shaking landings should get 91 PCS.

I didn't say Hanyu's score was not high, given that fall. But if you compare to other in top 3, it's obvious the judges were very generous to ALL of them. And frankly, at least Hanyu got to 90s PCS before, while the other 2 never.

Personally I don't think Machida's SP should get 98, it was really good but can you believe that his SP was as good as PChan's at his best? :slink:

98 is the highest score PChan got for his SP this season. And to think Machida got the same score without much struggle? Hanyu has 2 season to make his SP his own, he went gradually from 95 to 101. While Machida only need a month to reach PChan's score. He raise from 83 in Sochi to 98 in Saitama.

it was really good but I don't think it's that good.
And Javi got 96 for his SP for the first time, which was inflated as well.

So if we dropped Hanyu's SP, then Machida and Javi's scores should be dropped as well. If you give Hanyu 87 for his SP, then Javi should get 92 and Machida 95 at most. That is already generous.

Frankly if PCS wasn't inflated, all three of them should just get 80s for their free skate. Hanyu maybe 85-88 at most. Machida 80-82. Javi 80-84 (bonus for not wearing tight costume in his lP).

I mean Javi could have won and that is my ideal if he hadn't made mistakes, he knew Hanyu's score since he skated right behind Hanyu, I guess that hurt him. If he were clean, he would be the gold medalist, definitely. Do you know Javi and Machida's PCS in LP is almost 92 and 91 respectively? Their scores were too much inflated.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 30, 2014

Machida's SP score was monstrously high, but it was home ice. Butit was still well executed.

Javier deserved around a 96. All guys were marked high, but Hanyu the highest IMO considering the error. He was behind Verner in my books.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Machida's SP score was monstrously high, but it was home ice. Butit was still well executed.

Javier deserved around a 96. All guys were marked high, but Hanyu the highest IMO considering the error. He was behind Verner in my books.

Personally I think Machida was marked highest. From 83 in Sochi to 98 is a loooong way, it's 15 points and within a month. Javi's SP in Sochi was 86. So within one month he got more than 10 points for bonus, huh? Machida and Javi executed well but should be + 5 or +7 at most. The different between 1 month is more than 10 points apart you know. :eek:

How can I buy that?

If you say it's reasonable that it's home ice for Machida, then it's also home ice for Hanyu. If we dropped Hanyu's SP, then Machida and Javi's SP should be dropped as well. The best SPs of this season undoubtedly belong to Hanyu and PChan. And to think that within a month Machida and Javi jumped to that scores, that is completely baffled for me (15 and 10 points bonus after a month). For Hanyu to score from 95 (1st time for his SP) to 101 in Sochi, he had to live with it for 2 seasons consecutively and the judges got 2 years to get familiar with his routine. Now tell me how can Machida and Javi got +15 and +10 after a month?

As for Verner, I said that already, skating before the big guys hurt him. And the judges know he hadn't had many chances anyways. His LP proved that.

wonderlen3000 · Mar 30, 2014

Meoima said:
Personally I think Machida was marked highest. From 83 in Sochi to 98 is a loooong way, it's 15 points and within a month. Javi's SP in Sochi was 86. So within one month he got more than 10 points for bonus, huh? Machida and Javi executed well but should be + 5 or +7 at most. The different between 1 month is more than 10 points apart you know. How can I buy that?

If you say it's reasonable that it's home ice for Machida, then it's also home ice for Hanyu. If we dropped Hanyu's SP, then Machida and Javi's SP should be dropped as well. The best SPs of this season undoubtedly belong to Hanyu and PChan. And to think that within a month Machida and Javi jumped to that scores, that is completely baffled for me (15 and 10 points bonus after a month). For Hanyu to score from 95 (1st time for his SP) to 101 in Sochi, he had to live with it for 2 seasons consecutively and the judges got 2 years to get familiar with his routine. Now tell me how can Machida and Javi got +15 and +10 after a month?

Well you guys forgot what Machida was skated at Sochi. Fist first clean SP at SA was 91 or 92+ something. In Sochi he missed the 4T+3T and only did shaky 4T+2T and he also double the 3Lz, which had mandatory -3GOE. These two missed cost him over 9 points. Put that 9 points back to Sochi score, plus better GOE, you can expect it will crack 90 score. Beside, his SP 4T+3T was one of the best one ever done by any male skater, beside PCahan's combo in recent and truly deserved the +GOE. I will say his PCS going up to 44+ is based on skating clean and selling the program. I guess the same can be say for Koster SP.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

For Kostner, her LP's score is surely a farewell gift.:disapp:

pangtongfan · Mar 30, 2014

Meoima said:
And Machida got 90 PCS for his flappy bird performance.
If Javi did not make mistake which costed him 6-7 points, he would've been the gold medalist. So I think the one who were the least favor to win in that top 3 is Yuzuru.

Hanyu would have gotten more or less the same scores outside of Japan. While I was hoping Machida could get the win, and wish another half point or point had gone his way for that to happen, the reality is that is this event was anywhere else his scores would have significantly dropped and he would have been lucky to even win silver for the same skates. Fernandez likely still skated well enough to have beaten Machida had this event not been in Japan, and while being in Japan may have helped Hanyu's scores marginally, it is quite obvious to anyone who has followed this season they helped Machida's much more, even as well as he skated here. CSG has been delusional all year about Hanyu's scores though. First after Eric Bompard he mocked those who dared to suggest a clean Hanyu had a prayer of beating a clean Chan. He put Hanyu's cap for a clean LP at something like 180 and cap for his maximum PCS at something like 85 (lol). He then said after the grand prix final Hanyu would never get PCS or scores like that outside Japan right now, and whined about Hanyu winning the LP there ever since. Then we saw at the Olympics that was also clearly wrong. :laugh:

There is probably a better case for Fernandez deserving to win the event than Machida. Fernandez should have won the SP with atleast 98 points, while Hanyu probably deserved 90 tops. Fernandez' s LP, even with the mistake, was underscored compared to both Japanese men as well. Machida got a SP that tied Chan's all time PB which seems too much even for his great performance, and his PCS for his LP was also too high for a program (meaning the choreography, overall packaging, etc...) that isnt even that good.

Blades of Passion · Mar 30, 2014

Ziggy said:
Marks being close is precisely what the problem was, IMO.

As far as I see it, the lack of quality on the elements didn't seem reflected in the GOE very well. Skaters were allowed to get away with some sloppy and flawed elements which wasn't fair to those who executed them to a high standard.

PCS were the usual mess with a lack of variety and strengths and weaknesses not being reflected particularly well. Skating order was a big factor as well with Hurtado/Diaz, for example, drawing the short straw.

Yes, exactly.

It's great that a bunch of different teams were in contention to win the Ice Dance competition, but the judging itself wasn't very good.

The PCS of Cappellini/Lanotte, Weaver/Poje, and Pechalat/Bourzat in the FD seemed to simply be dependent on their result in the SD. It's like the judges just sat there thinking "C/L won the SD so I guess they must suddenly be the best out of these 3 teams and we'll give them the highest PCS in the FD too".

pangtongfan · Mar 30, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
Yes, exactly.

It's great that a bunch of different teams were in contention to win the Ice Dance competition, but the judging itself wasn't very good.

The PCS of Cappellini/Lanotte, Weaver/Poje, and Pechalat/Bourzat in the FD seemed to simply be dependent on their result in the SD. It's like the judges just sat there thinking "C/L won the SD so I guess they must suddenly be the best out of these 3 teams and we'll give them the highest PCS in the FD too".

Well the PCS of the 3 teams were only 0.05 apart. Obviously amongst the 3 there were differing opinions per judge which was better than the other in PCS and came out to a virtual tie. It wasnt like a consensus C&L had the best components.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

pangtongfan said:
There is probably a better case for Fernandez deserving to win the event than Machida. Fernandez should have won the SP with atleast 98 points, while Hanyu probably deserved 90 tops. Fernandez' s LP, even with the mistake, was underscored compared to both Japanese men as well. Machida got a SP that tied Chan's all time PB which seems too much even for his great performance, and his PCS for his LP was also too high for a program (meaning the choreography, overall packaging, etc...) that isnt even that good.

Yeah, I would like Javi to win, or at least to get the silver because (sorry for being shallow :eek:

he looks more manly :laugh:

. His SP I don't like much because of the tight tight tigh... way too tight costume. His LP suits him well, still not my favourite but easier to watch than Flappy Bird and Juliet The Narcissist. :bang:

Anyways, the replacement is quite alright, I just can't take the PCS inflation.

pangtongfan · Mar 30, 2014

Meoima said:
Yeah, I would like Javi to win, or at least to get the silver because (sorry for being shallow he looks more manly =))). His SP I don't like much because of the tight tight tigh... way too tight costume. His LP suits him well, still not my favourite but easier to watch than Flappy Bird and Juliet The Narcissist.
Anyways, the replacement is quite alright, I just can't take the PCS inflation.

Fernandez definitely should have had the highest PCS in the LP. His program was by far the best, most entertaining, and best choreographed of the top three, and his performance level and interpretation was clearly the best. His skating skills (what the judges ***** on as shown by their Chan obsession over the years) are very good, only a bit below Hanyu, and probably better than Machida.

His GOEs also should have been consistently higher than Hanyu and Machida in the LP as they both struggled and fought to hold onto almost everything. In general he was the only one hard done by the judging, Machida was probably the most generously marked of the three.

Meoima · Mar 30, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Fernandez definitely should have had the highest PCS in the LP. His program was by far the best, most entertaining, and best choreographed of the top three, and his performance level and interpretation was clearly the best. His skating skills (what the judges ***** on as shown by their Chan obsession over the years) are very good, only a bit below Hanyu, and probably better than Machida.

His GOEs also should have been consistently higher than Hanyu and Machida in the LP as they both struggled and fought to hold onto almost everything. In general he was the only one hard done by the judging, Machida was probably the most generously marked of the three.

Totally agree! :thumbsup: even with his mistakes with the jumps, outside of Japan he would probably get the silver.

I am pleased with Hanyu get the gold though, for all the effort he put in that program, however much I dislike it, I have to admit finally he can deliver it (for the first time) to some extent. :biggrin:

jennyanydots · Mar 30, 2014

I didn't think the ice dance judging was good. I admit that I'm biased because I really wanted P/B to win but they were low-balled on PCS. C/L peformed great but is their skating really world champion material? I can't get over how shallow their edges are. Yeah, P/B and I/K lost it on the short and I suppose I would rather see C/L win than B/S.

Do agree that Yuzuru's PCS are excessive although I love the kid to death. But I think it's just another instance of the judges being awestruck by the big jumps making them equate a high TES with high PCS. I also think Machida is generally underappreciated by fans so you get people whining about his scores when he is actually quite good. As for Javi, don't a lot of people feel his PCS are generous?

I don't really have a problem with Carolina's scores. She was low-balled all season and deserved more than a bronze medal at Sochi, so I guess this was a way to make it up to her.

pangtongfan · Mar 30, 2014

It is too bad Bobrova & Soloviev were unable to compete in front of this panel. I am sure we would have seen a 5th or 6th place finish for them at this event. With their luck they wont face another top team until next seasons Rostelecom Cup somehow.

World's 2014 Ice Dance Judging Was a Breath of Fresh Air

Ladskater

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