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- Aug 29, 2013
Liza´s lutz, flip axel, loop, toe, salchow... all jumps are huge°
Which skaters have correct jumping technique?
- Thread starter lutzlover
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- Apr 2, 2014
I think your lip takes you out of this convo, tbh.
Ahahaha. Just kidding.
Yagudin probably had the best jump technique overall. All of his jumps were big/huge, fully rotated in the air, on correct edges, not tilted, and flowed out on the landing.
Yagudin's jumps were big, that's about it. He relied on his height to get the jumps around.
His jumps were often muscled, as noted by his unorthodox air position and his landings were often quite forward and with a low back.
Technically and Mechanically, Plushenko was a much better jumper than Yagudin - which is probably why he was still able to do Quads (Quad Triples, Triple Triples, every triple, etc.) after so many injuries and after so many years. Good mechanics tends to breed longevity. He wasn't the smoothest jumper either... I'm pretty sure Yagudin's hip was done after 2002, Lol.
Yagudin was a "strong jumper" in that he was STRONG. He could get triple toe loops off behind jumps that landed off axis and with no speed, because he was strong and was good as muscling those jumps around. His consistency was commendable.
It's easier to save a big jump than a smaller jump. You get time to spot the landing and place yourself appropriately when you can open up before the landing
I was impressed by Anna's 14worlds LP, especially her lutz, with explosive speed and power. However,when I watched her lutz slow-mo, I discovered that her toe-picking is a little weird. it seems rolled on-to a full blade before launching, whereas classic lutz toe-pick is usually straight down and pulls in.
So I wanna discuss about the toe-pick technique in toe jumps, is using blade to launch toe jumps a proper way to do it, example: Anna's Lutz, Plushenko's lutz(seems touch ice using right outside edge) and Adelina's 3T (rolls on full blade).
So I wanna discuss about the toe-pick technique in toe jumps, is using blade to launch toe jumps a proper way to do it, example: Anna's Lutz, Plushenko's lutz(seems touch ice using right outside edge) and Adelina's 3T (rolls on full blade).
Mao does that too. And +3 Jumper Adelina as well with her Flip, Lutz and Toe-Loop.
The blade-technique is probably the reason why Mao could never correct her wrong lutz edge. Because if you pick in with the full blade it is almost impossible to hold a correct outside edge to my mind.
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- Apr 2, 2014
That's normal in jumping. A lot of skaters do that.
It's not possible to jump off a full blade. Put on some figure skates and try it. Hope the concussion isn't too bad.
The only part of the toe pick that really gets the skater up is the drag pick, the lowest part of the toe-pick. Most skaters do not jump off the full toe pick, and since there is a pivor on the take off of practically all jumps sometimes that + the fact that there is a lot of force going down through the skate into the ice makes it look like they're jumping off the blade. But they are not. You cannot reliably do triple jumps off the blade or sweet spot of a skate. That's why Figure Skates have a toe pick, and hockey skates don't.
For reference, here's my flip take-off:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbttdy.png
You can expect elite skaters doing jumps higher than doubles to have an even lower angle of their blade to the ice, because they tend to skate faster and have much more forces going down into the ice. It's also a bit disingenuous to give only a screen cap because that doesn't do justice to the mechanics of the jump take-off, at all. The foot is almost always pivoting forwards INTO the toe pick, not back onto the blade. That is how they launch the jump up and jump INTO the jump (and not just straight up) to create a decent jump trajectory while creating rotational energy. Otherwise they'd have to muscle the crap out of all their jumps. Can you imagine a Triple Lutz jumping straight back into the jump off a full toe pick... Lol.
It's not possible to jump off a full blade. Put on some figure skates and try it. Hope the concussion isn't too bad.
The only part of the toe pick that really gets the skater up is the drag pick, the lowest part of the toe-pick. Most skaters do not jump off the full toe pick, and since there is a pivor on the take off of practically all jumps sometimes that + the fact that there is a lot of force going down through the skate into the ice makes it look like they're jumping off the blade. But they are not. You cannot reliably do triple jumps off the blade or sweet spot of a skate. That's why Figure Skates have a toe pick, and hockey skates don't.
For reference, here's my flip take-off:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbttdy.png
You can expect elite skaters doing jumps higher than doubles to have an even lower angle of their blade to the ice, because they tend to skate faster and have much more forces going down into the ice. It's also a bit disingenuous to give only a screen cap because that doesn't do justice to the mechanics of the jump take-off, at all. The foot is almost always pivoting forwards INTO the toe pick, not back onto the blade. That is how they launch the jump up and jump INTO the jump (and not just straight up) to create a decent jump trajectory while creating rotational energy. Otherwise they'd have to muscle the crap out of all their jumps. Can you imagine a Triple Lutz jumping straight back into the jump off a full toe pick... Lol.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Wow. I remember seeing a video with two side-by-side clips of her performing a jump (can't remember which competitions they were from, I think it was her 3F) and I was impressed with how uniform they were. I didn't think you could actually overlay shots of them together though. That's amazing.
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Uh, any good technique "relies" on height to get jumps around. That's what jumps are. You go up.
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You're missing the point, because you're addicted to arguing/debate.
I had a long reply with video and screen caps prepared but that's not worth the time. I'll just say it that way. Artur Gachinski is a better jumper than Yagudin ever was, mechanically speaking. Yagudin's jump mechanics were not that great. His jumps were Muscled, Laboured, often landed hunched over and low. Urmanov, Plushenko, Yagudin, and Gachinski all learned their jumps with Mishin, so the only explanation for Yagudin being a comparatively weaker jumper (mechanically speaking) is that he was just not as good as they are, just more consistent (and no, consistently landing worse jumps does not by default make your worse jumps better than their better jumps - it just means they are less consistent landing their better jumps).
You don't need more height to do harder jumps, necessarily. We know this from video analysis etc. that the old focus on making jumps bigger to add rotation is less efficient than focusing on getting into the rotation quicker and pulling in tighter to speed up the rotation, which allow you to add rotations without adding much (if any) height/air time to the jump.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Then, who do you think, among these current skaters, have best quality on jumps? PChan? Javi or Dennis Ten?
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They're all good. I think Patrick Chan is near the top for jump quality when he hits them. Plushenko's jumps are obviously still good and he gets some fabulous extension on his (held) landings out of many of them. Machida, Hanyu, and Fernandez are all good.
TBQH, most of the top men have great technique on their jumps. It's just a matter of whether or not they land them or have mistakes. Men, overall, tend to display a higher average level of technical proficiency than the women because they are stronger and don't tend to have to fight for the rotations as much. I'm speaking generally.
For the women, it's hard to say...
On one hand, it's hard to find a woman who has a true lutz and a true flip. On the other hand, the one great skater we know with both can't even consistently do a Triple Loop in competition. Kostner fits that bill, though.
So, if I had to settle for some in-built flaws, I'd say Polina Edmunds, Adelina Sotnikova, and Carolina Kostner have some of the better technique out there for the ladies.
If there is some phenom coming up that I haven't heard of or seen then forgive me.
In the past we've seen Slutskaya, Sebestyen, Volchkova, Rochette, and others who had great technique for women. For 6.0 skaters it's hard to really throw them in because the focus on URs and Edge calls that we have now then simply didn't exist back then.
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- Feb 13, 2014
There is a poster said he/she has seen these male skaters live more than once. It seems the jumps we see on video look different when we see live. She said PChan and Hanyu's jumps are both up - down and across, technically their jumps look good.
She said Machida's jumps are up and down but not across. Yan Han, who is famous for his 3A, jumps across but does not have much height, even as Daisuke who is not famous for his jumps. This surprised me very much. Because I have always thought Han Yan's 3A is exceptional.
But if some jumps look less impressive when we watch live, then I could somewhat understand the GOE for a bit. Like sometimes we thinks the jumps are so good but GOE is negative. Because we don't watch them live?
Not sure I would include Adelina in that list. Adelina's technique is not bad, but not really commendable. She gets her height and jumps from her talent mostly, I feel, and not from "proper" technique. Her take off and landing positions are quite awkward and she does have a flutz. I'd say Carolina has the best technique, although it doesn't always translate into flawless jumps.
Oh! and So Youn P. showed some pretty good technique at worlds. I wish she'd do her 3-turn and go immediately into her flip though.
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EDIT: Nevermind, your reply makes sense now.
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- Feb 13, 2014
What about the difference when we watch skater perform in life and through video? As I have mentioned in my post above. A poster told us, when she watched live, some jumps do not have same impression of height as we watch on video.
She said some skaters' jumps look impressive through video but in real life, not so much, such as Yan Han or Machida. And some skaters' jumps look even better in live such as PChan and Hanyu. I am very curious about this matter. Have you experienced familiar cases?
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- Apr 2, 2014
We're talking about jump mechanics, not someone's opinion on how impressive they look on video vs in real life.
Skaters have different builds, etc. that can affect how their jumps "look" but that often has nothing to do with the mechanics of jumping (i.e. their technique and how the jump is actually being performed).
At the risk of ruffling a feather, but I don't care cause I think it's pertinent to the discussion... No matter how great Ashley Wagner does a triple Loop, it simply isn't going to look as good to me in the air as a Tara Lipinski or Mao Asada triple loop. Their body types simply give them an aesthetic advantage over Wagner and there's nothing that she can do about it no matter how great or not great her technique is.
We can make similar comparisons with the men. Elvis Stojko and Yuzuru Hanyu? Hanyu's body type just lends itself to better looking jumps (which come across as more impressive). There's nothing Elvis can do about that. He cannot trade his body in for another one. You work with what you have and make the most of it, but Elvis still had decent jumps, disregarding the hunched landings.
I think Components is talking about a different thing, since s/he said Yagudin's jumps, while with great height, do not have the best jump mechanics. This is different than how big the jump is when watching live because she thinks the size of jump does not mean best jump mechanics.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Sorry, I am curious because you seem to be very knowledgable when it comes to jumps. I know there are different techniques for each skaters because they have different body types. But I think techniques also affect the height and the looks of the jumps. Or sometimes it depends on the skater's strength only? Like you said Yagudin's jumps are up and down and they look good because of his strength and body type. Since you are talking about mechanics of the jumps only then I am sorry for misunderstanding.
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- Apr 2, 2014
I think I may have misunderstood your question.
Yagudin's issues with jumping is the fact that he muscled a lot of his jumps, and because he was so strong he was able to hold onto landings that other skaters would have crumbled under.
I didn't say Yagudin's jumps were *terrible*. There were redeeming qualities to his jumping, height being one of them (especially on his triple axel). I said his mechanics weren't top notch. There were other men with better jumps skating in the same era that he skated in, even from the same coach. His triple axel, however, was world class.
Yagudin perhaps wasn't the most talented skater in the world, but he certainly was one of the hardest workers, and sometimes hard work DOES pay off.
Go look at the SP for Yagudin's 2002 SP and pay note to what his right arm does on the take-off for his toe loops and what his left side dies right after the take-off in the air
Then go watch Plushenko's Quad Toe, Triple Toes and look at the same phases of the jump.
You will note two things:
1. Plushenko does not bring his arms around as much with such force into the jump to create rotational energy. His arm movements are a lot more linear than Yagudin's. This means most of he rotational energy is coming from the take-off mechanics of the jump and not his upper body.
2. Plushenko is clearly not muscling the jump because his air position clearly states this is not happening, while Yagudin's air position clearly states it is.
Additionally, you can see this on other jumps from Yagudin. While most men will open the left side (talking about CCW jumpers) on the Lutz to allow for a more balance, bigger vertical take-off for the jump (as most men do not rotate as fast as ladies, generally), Yagudin muscles the take-off way past forwards with his left side into his Triple Lutz.
What I'm referring to is this: http://i57.tinypic.com/2rcopp2.jpg
Versus this: http://i58.tinypic.com/xelzb7.png
(Ref Video for Lysacek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbfhXScMxdQ )
You can see that Yagudin throws his shoulders around hard into the jump, to the point that even though Evan is further along into the jump than Alexei, Alexie's upper body is way further across. Because Evan's technique on that jump is superior to Yagudin's, he was able to generate much more height between backwards to forwards (take-off to 'h' which is where most men will snap the jump down and accelerate their rotation) without overpowering the take-off. This is one example where better technique creates a bigger jump, and not necessarily more strength.
There are a few women that jump similarly in their Lutzes and Flips, Yuna Kim being one of them.
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