What held back Asada's PCS?

Moa can do Adios Nonino with her eyes close. Stop trying to sell propaganda that that program it is harder than any other program. Frankly, I think Mao, Kim and and Carolina giving time with a program can skate to anything and make it look good. As oppose to other skaters. However, some fans, commentators and even judges like to see them skate to what is comfortable. If Yuna Kim had time with Adios Anonimo it would have a master piece by the end of the season, she did not have enough time with the program.

Minze2001 said:

Moa can do Adios Anonimo with her eyes close. Stop trying to sell propaganda that that program it is harder than any other program. Frankly, I think Mao, Kim and and Carolina giving time with a program can skate to anything and make it look good. As oppose to other skaters. However, some fans, commentators and even judges like to see them skate to what is comfortable. If Yuna Kim had time with Adios Anonimo it would have a master piece by the end of the season, she did not have enough time with the program.

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Well Moa can with Adios Anonimo, can Mao with Adios Nonino? It is tough, not a propaganda, consult your nearest none biased ice dancer if available.

os168 said:

Well Moa can with Adios Anonimo, can Mao with Adios Nonino? It is tough, not a propaganda, consult your nearest none biased ice dancer if available.

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Thank You for correcting my mistakes. I am humble by it. Do you have the numbers of any ice dancers?

I can't see Mao doing Adios Nonino just as I can't see Yuna doing Nocturne. I mean, sure, they can try but they will look funny. They are different skaters.

On that note, I am still puzzled and pissed off by Bells of Moscow that Tarasova gave Mao for Vancouver. It was not a choreo that suited Mao.

usethis2 said:

I can't see Mao doing Adios Nonino just as I can't see Yuna doing Nocturne. I mean, sure, they can try but they will look funny. They are different skaters.

On that note, I am still puzzled and pissed off by Bells of Moscow that Tarasova gave Mao for Vancouver. It was not a choreo that suited Mao.

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I see what you mean, but I think giving a chance to develop a choreography Mao, Caro and Kim can make it great. I know most Mao fans hated Bell of Moscow, but when she performed clean at 2010 worlds I loved it.

Yuna said Adios Nonino is the most difficult "SHE" has either done. No point to compare to others. It only means Yuna challenged herself and did her best for Sochi OG. Yuna's Adios is definitely a masterpiece in MY mind and that is enough for me.

It is odd but I find myself REALLY like Bells of Moscow and consider it an all time great artistic program of Maos. Honestly I thought it is a better and more fully realised program than anything she has done since Vancouver Olympic season, where they are genuine all round choreography and performance. Her World Champion version has real aggravation and all out angst that raised that program to a whole different level. Her Rach 2 at Olympics is similarly superb for different reasons, 110% performance helped by real life circumstance, 60% choreographed content.

Maybe because I don't have that baggage of familiar with what a light and lyrical skater Mao is 'suited' and known for and only saw the programs with fresh eyes, but honest I was so impressed with a Japanese lady (normally associate with timid and softness lady like traits) can put out such an emotional European program, surely that is what transcendence is about. Really Mao was the Fire, Yuna was the water at Vancouver. Water won there, but fire is impressive when burn bright like at worlds. Mao made me appreciate what difficulty in this sport can struggle to achieve and just how amazing it is to overcome, Yuna made me appreciate what effortless beauty in finesse, refinement, delicacy and precision can combine with power, speed, strength that made this sport totally unique and special, one with the music, not at the expense of it.

Together they are the Ying and Yang, the night and day, the sun the moon, the rain the wind, that balanced the ladies figure skating universe. With Kostner the rainbow occasionally shining through. Colourful, interesting but disappear too quickly. Totally unreliable yet people wax lyrical hoping to get a peek of its brilliance every now and then.

I don't like Kim's Adios Nonino. I don't care who skates it. It's a boring program. DW has to choreograph better programs next season, since all his programs this past season were boring.

Minze2001 said:

I see what you mean, but I think giving a chance to develop a choreography Mao, Caro and Kim can make it great. I know most Mao fans hated Bell of Moscow, but when she performed clean at 2010 worlds I loved it.

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I don't like the "Bell of Moscow" which is way too heavy, angry and dark for Mao. Tat put a huge burden on Mao's tiny shoulders. However, Mao skated the hell out of it, at the end of the season, I even enjoyed it. Mao is such a fighter.

yyyskate said:

Yuna said Adios Nonino is the most difficult "SHE" has either done. No point to compare to others. It only means Yuna challenged herself and did her best for Sochi OG. Yuna's Adios is definitely a masterpiece in MY mind and that is enough for me.

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I agree. There are so much nuances in that program. It reminds me of Lu Chen's Adios Nonino, but the feeling is completely different.

It's not that Mao cannot do a program exploring dark side of human conditions. It's that the specific choreo and the interpretation of Bells of Moscow was bad. Especially the Vancouver one.

usethis2 said:

It's not that Mao cannot do a program exploring dark side of human conditions. It's that the specific choreo and the interpretation of Bells of Moscow was bad. Especially the Vancouver one.

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She's matured a lot since then. I don't think she could do something profound or sensual the way Kim or Kostner can. Her style can be light-spirited (her SP last year), ethereal (Chopin) or regal (her FS this year), but I don't think she can deliver deeper human emotions although it'd be interesting to see her try.

Components said:

Failing to recognize that PCS is largely technical and looking at it from that point of view - NOT EVEN HALF of PCS is "Artistry"

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The performance component is certainly part of "artistry" and the transitions component has a little bit to do with it as well. Transitions become more difficult when executed exactly in time with the music. A spread eagle into a Triple Axel in one program can be more difficult than the exact same spread eagle into a Triple Axel in another program. So PCS are at least 60% "artistry".

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

She's matured a lot since then. I don't think she could do something profound or sensual the way Kim or Kostner can. Her style can be light-spirited (her SP last year), ethereal (Chopin) or regal (her FS this year), but I don't think she can deliver deeper human emotions although it'd be interesting to see her try.

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Oh that I agree wholeheartedly. Actually IMO Yuna and Mao went after each other's style since.. I don't know when.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

She's matured a lot since then. I don't think she could do something profound or sensual the way Kim or Kostner can. Her style can be light-spirited (her SP last year), ethereal (Chopin) or regal (her FS this year), but I don't think she can deliver deeper human emotions although it'd be interesting to see her try.

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A lot of people including myself find Mao's Sochi LP in Sochi (and for me even at Worlds) to be the most profoundly moving performances they have ever seen, ranging from the depths of melancholy to defiance and ultimately teary-eyed redemption. The effect of a skater on someone's emotions is highly subjective, so it's best not to get in an argument about differences of opinion. Glad that you find her adept at expressing a range of other emotions.

usethis2 said:

It's not that Mao cannot do a program exploring dark side of human conditions. It's that the specific choreo and the interpretation of Bells of Moscow was bad. Especially the Vancouver one.

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The only thing that turns me off the Vancouver performance is the circumstances surrounding it because I just get so sad when I see how dejected she is at the end when she knows she can't win and remember her crying in the interview afterwards. Though I really like the performance in Vancouver, she cast her most beguiling trance at World's when she beat Kim overall, yet inexplicably lost the free-skate!!! Her performance at World's was cleaner technically but more sultry, prodigal and stealthy like a limber wild cat on the prowl, with all those twisting step and spiral sequences, striking full leg extensions, contorted stretches, spins and triple axels, and its fiery darkness was such a stark departure from her innocent, ethereal image. In my opinion, it will always be one the prime examples of how Mao’s expressiveness and artistry transcended that of any other skater.

Lipinski and the announcer with her were in awe of her performance and offered nothing but words of praise. The fact that Mao only got 129.5 for such a stunning performance with a PCS of only 62.48 makes me think scores are utterly meaningless and many others below agree. Maybe artistry and expression just don't play much of a role in the scores, but for me it's the feeling in the soul that really counts and Mao here really brings it out in full force. Therefore, it would be nice if you said "I thought or in my opinion" when you say the word bad in reference to her performance of Bells of Moscow because many, including myself, find it to be one their very favorites and a true classic in the sport. Here are what posters on youtube had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCZCM8AKCU

Posters:
Final step sequence in this program reminds me of image of angry angel throwing lightning here and there. It is like a piece of painting. She is undoubtedly an artist.

Stunning performance. Should judges give her more 150+ with two 3A, gorgeous spirals. Beautiful step and one hand spin! Mao's going to another level.

This program is incomparable. It is deep music with courageous choreography and mind blowing skating by Mao. Technically only the judges knew why her score did not shoot up the roof but the overall affect in the eyes of skating fans is that it is impressive in a HUGE way.

WHY IN THE WORLD DID SHE NOT GET AT LEAST ABOVE A 220 FOR THIS (SP and LP)? how in the world is this any worse than kim's olympic performance?

i could not help but cry during the step sequence.

I really love this program, the music is exquisite, the performance just perfection. A masterpiece from the most gifted skater....It's Art on ice!!!!!!!!!!

she is going to be remember for this ever... this music this compromise... its nothing seen in a sport competition! this its just a historic performance. nobody can touch this not even yuna not even scores! This is history.

I loved that outfit with the gloves, the music, and her passionate dance movements. She is so full of art in her performances. I think she actually gets lost in it, and it is just awesome. I know Yuna Kim is better in polished technique. But Mao is just way more artistic and expressive.

I cry seeing this repeatedly.

Only part that I disagree with the commentator: "She was waiting for Yuna to make mistake" I would change that and say: "She was waiting to be judged fairly"

I would much rather watch Mao than Kim. Yes, Kim is a better performer in the Hollywood sense of the word, but Mao is better technically and artistically.

She should've gotten a much higher score here

I am not a huge fan of skating but when I saw this program, I was stunned. I think skating is boring most of the time because skaters pick boring music in major chords and they're always safe and boring (redundant, I know). Mao picked such a dramatic piece and filled the room with her fire. She melds the rise and fall of the music perfectly with her artistic expression and her power moves. I really appreciate this piece. Signed, not an ice skating fan.

This Bells of Moscow LP is AMAZING. I've watched like 200 times. I never get tired of this program. There's something very special about this

That's funny... Cause Mao didn't win the free skate here unfortunately ... though she should have actually...stupid judges....

Blades of Passion said:

The performance component is certainly part of "artistry" and the transitions component has a little bit to do with it as well. Transitions become more difficult when executed exactly in time with the music. A spread eagle into a Triple Axel in one program can be more difficult than the exact same spread eagle into a Triple Axel in another program. So PCS are at least 60% "artistry".

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Where did I say anything to the contrary? I said that most of PCS, (look at the criteria), is technical in nature and the criteria for almost a lot of PCS is similar to GOE Bullets for Jumps, Footwork, and Spins. This is a verifiable fact. Only difference is it's applied to the whole program instead of specific elements. A few nuances or a couple of hard transitions is not supposed to be enough to boost a skater to 9s in PCS. That only seems to work for a few skaters, while everyone else is working themselves into the ground to get to 8s.

Secondly, I'm not sure what the rest of what you're talking about has to do with that. Your spread eagle situation is a terrible analogy given what you quoted from my post.

Both the Transition (Spread Eagle) and Jump (Triple Axel) are technical elements and are largely factored into the TES (Jump Value, GOE Bullet) and Technical PCS Categories (SS, TR). A skater shouldn't even gain half a point in any category (except maybe in a Short Program, certainly not in a FS) just for doing a great SE-3A in their program. One element is not weighed that high in PCS scoring. And you cannot overuse this, because Variety is a bullet point for these PCS categories (this was a huge area of contention back in 2005-2006 with the overuse of Biellman positions, if you can recall, as skaters used them for everything from spins to spirals to transitions etc.).

gotoschool said:

The only thing that turns me off the Vancouver performance is the circumstances of the performances because I just get so sad when I saw how dejected she is at the end when she knows she can't win and remember her crying in the interview afterwards. But, I find the step sequences, spins and triple axels to be utterly mesmerizing with the full and most powerful trance cast at Worlds when she wins. It would be nice if you said "I thought or in my opinion" when you say the word bad in reference to her performance of Bells of Moscow because many find it to be one their favorites and a true classic in the sport. I think it's sultry, prodigal and stealthy like a limber and hungry cat on the prowl, with all those wild stretches, spins and triple axels and such a departure from her innocent, ethereal image. In my opinion, it will always be one the prime examples of how Mao’s expressiveness and artistry transcended that of any other skater. Lipinski and the announcer with her were in awe of her performance and had nothing but words of praise. The fact that Mao only got 129.5 for such a stunning performance with a PCS of only 62.48 makes me think scores are utterly meaningless and many others below agree. Maybe artistry and expression just don't play much of a role in the scores., but for me it's the feeling in the soul that really counts and Mao here really brings it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCZCM8AKCU

Other posters:
Final step sequence in this program reminds me of image of angry angel throwing lightning here and there. It is like a piece of painting. She is undoubtedly an artist.

Stunning performance. Should judges give her more 150+ with two 3A, gorgeous spirals. Beautiful step and one hand spin! Mao's going to another level.

This program is incomparable. It is deep music with courageous choreography and mind blowing skating by Mao. Technically only the judges knew why her score did not shoot up the roof but the overall affect in the eyes of skating fans is that it is impressive in a HUGE way.

WHY IN THE WORLD DID SHE NOT GET AT LEAST ABOVE A 220 FOR THIS (SP and LP)? how in the world is this any worse than kim's olympic performance?

i could not help but cry during the step sequence.

I really love this program, the music is exquisite, the performance just perfection. A masterpiece from the most gifted skater....It's Art on ice!!!!!!!!!!

she is going to be remember for this ever... this music this compromise... its nothing seen in a sport competition! this its just a historic performance. nobody can touch this not even yuna not even scores! This is history.

I loved that outfit with the gloves, the music, and her passionate dance movements. She is so full of art in her performances. I think she actually gets lost in it, and it is just awesome. I know Yuna Kim is better in polished technique. But Mao is just way more artistic and expressive.

I cry seeing this repeatedly.

I am not a huge fan of skating but when I saw this program, I was stunned. I think skating is boring most of the time because skaters pick boring music in major chords and they're always safe and boring (redundant, I know). Mao picked such a dramatic piece and filled the room with her fire. She melds the rise and fall of the music perfectly with her artistic expression and her power moves. I really appreciate this piece. Signed, not an ice skating fan.

This Bells of Moscow LP is AMAZING. I've watched like 200 times. I never get tired of this program. There's something very special about this

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Momentum means a lot in Figure Skating (more than it should, performance at that day should trump anything) and Yuna had that on her side - Mao didn't.

It is hard to win the Olympics when you go in with the judges expecting you to NOT win.

Additionally, because of the way scores tend to go up everytime a skater skates well throughout the season, Yuna's momentum gave her a huge advantage. She was bound to get WR scores if she hit her programs, and Mao hadn't worked her scores up to that point yet.

Lastly, Mao's FS in Vancouver was not flawless. She was definitely slightly deflated seeing as how Yuna had just posted a score that was literally unbeatable no matter how well she'd have scated, unless the judges gave her almost perfect marks (a slew of +3s and Ridiculously high PCS).

Components said:

Where did I say anything to the contrary? I said that most of PCS, the vast majority, is technical in nature and the criteria for almost all of PCS is similar to GOE Bullets for Jumps, Footwork, and Spinning. This is a verifiable fact.

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How are the performance, choreography, and interpretation criteria technical? "Carriage" in the performance component and "Ice Coverage" in the choreography component are the only things that could possibly be considered as such. The criteria in those 3 components are what constitute artistry and yes they are worth 60% of the PCS.

Components said:

Momentum means a lot in Figure Skating (more than it should, performance at that day should trump anything) and Yuna had that on her side - Mao didn't.

It is hard to win the Olympics when you go in with the judges expecting you to NOT win.

Additionally, because of the way scores tend to go up everytime a skater skates well throughout the season, Yuna's momentum gave her a huge advantage. She was bound to get WR scores if she hit her programs, and Mao hadn't worked her scores up to that point yet.

Lastly, Mao's FS in Vancouver was not flawless. She was definitely slightly deflated seeing as how Yuna had just posted a score that was literally unbeatable no matter how well she'd have scated, unless the judges gave her almost perfect marks (a slew of +3s and Ridiculously high PCS).

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Maybe I didn't get my point across clearly. I edited my response and posted it above. I am not arguing that Mao should have beaten Kim at Vancouver because Mao missed her triple toe loop and caught an edge. So, Kim was the rightful winner, though I do feel the margin of victory should have been considerably less. Rather, I am citing comments from number of posters at youtube to defend the artistic integrity and interpretation of Mao's Bell of Moscow performance at Worlds, where she beat Kim overall, but inexplicably lost the free-skate to Kim with a fall. I think it shows that there is a big disconnect between the public's love of Mao's performance and the low scores given out by the judges.

Therefore, I believe these results show that judging scores should be taken with a grain of salt because a component score of 62.48 for that great performance seems utterly ludicrous to me, as if Mao had been pigeon-holed as a pure tech skater and the judges were blind to her artistry, choreography and interpretation, which in my eye's is more impressive than Kim's. Granted under the COP system a little PCS should be taken off for Asada because of her relative lack of speed compared to Kim, though great speed has never been important to me in an aesthetic sense, especially for the females.

This leads to my contention that we should decide for ourselves what the great performances are, instead of taking the word of the judges, because the effect of art and music on peoples' souls and emotions is highly subjective, so that quantifying for example who is a better skater, Kim or Asada, is like trying to quantify who is a greater artist, Picasso or Dali. It helps relieve the frustration of seeing your favorite skater lose, but more importantly, it opens up your soul to a wider range of great performances, as opposed to pigeon-holing yourself to the gold medalist. Of course, the judging results should still count, unless they took place at Sochi.