What held back Asada's PCS?
- Thread starter tokugawaice
- Start date
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- Sep 17, 2011
I agree that comparing programs directly is stupid. Mao would likely look quite dumb doing Adios Nonino, or Bond Girl for that matter (though saying that makes me want to see her try it). But Yuna would look just as silly if she attempted Mao's Bells of Moscow. The idea of her attempting the fan spiral, the footwork, the triple Axels, the 3Loop right after the spiral sequence? She'd fall over herself in rather embarrassing fashion. Repeatedly saying Yuna's Adios Nonino is the most difficult thing she's ever done and other skaters couldn't do it doesn't mean other skaters' programs would be easy for her.
It is ok to say that adios is the most difficult program that yuna had done, I dont doubt it, but to say that is the most difficult program of all the girls, and I am sure that he thinks that is the most difficult program ever in the history of figure skating, is absurd 
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- Mar 28, 2014
What do you guys call this jump? http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/...ing&no=2212960
It is supposed to be 3flip jump, but I would call this 2.5 floopchow. What about you guys?
And this jump. http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/...ing&no=2192692
this is supposed to be 3axel. But I see under-rotation(she spins 2.7 rotations when she's supposed to rotate 3.5), but there were no deduction in the short. +1.86 of Goe on this jump was just too much. Judges didn't do their job in short program, but they finally did their job by 70% in the free skating. I would say this is the outcome of russiaflation. But I don't blame Mao for executing in a wrong way, because she has been making these mistakes since she was young, and those mistakes doesn't get corrected in one day. Nevertheless, I really liked her performance as a whole(except for those mistakes) and I congratulate her for winning gold in world championship. She deserved it among other skaters.
It is supposed to be 3flip jump, but I would call this 2.5 floopchow. What about you guys?
And this jump. http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/...ing&no=2192692
this is supposed to be 3axel. But I see under-rotation(she spins 2.7 rotations when she's supposed to rotate 3.5), but there were no deduction in the short. +1.86 of Goe on this jump was just too much. Judges didn't do their job in short program, but they finally did their job by 70% in the free skating. I would say this is the outcome of russiaflation. But I don't blame Mao for executing in a wrong way, because she has been making these mistakes since she was young, and those mistakes doesn't get corrected in one day. Nevertheless, I really liked her performance as a whole(except for those mistakes) and I congratulate her for winning gold in world championship. She deserved it among other skaters.
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- Feb 9, 2014
I think yuna could easily pull off bells of Moscow. She skates big and that piece is big. She pulled off tormoil well like in les mis
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Asada's Bells of Moscow was one of those love or hate it kind of programs it seems. It was one of my favorite programs of hers ever. The only thing I didnt like was the overly heavily makeup she wore which I didnt find went with it. However it seemed many didnt like it, and that probably included some of the judges. So as for her PCS being lower than Kim's, and even not higher than Rochette's, that probably explains it.
The main problem for her was the flaws of COP scoring at the time meant even with all her triple axels her base value was virtually identical to Yu Na in both programs. Given that Yu Na will obviously beat her easily on jump GOE (and deservedly so, although I do think Mao's jumps are underrated in quality and better than most), that meant she had virtually no chance to win if both were clean, even had she been given as high or higher PCS, and been given slightly higher marks on spins and spirals. Another problem for her was she wasnt doing all the other triples then so she wasnt fully capatilizing on her triple axel advantage like she now does. Of course if she had the advantage of the Games being in Toyko like Sotnikova had with them in Sochi she would have won by over 20 points with both her and Kim clean, even her triple flutzes would have gotten higher GOE than Kim's, etc.... but sadly for her despite being 10 times more deserving of such a situation than Sotnikova that was not the case.
Kim beating Mao in the LP of worlds was simply wrong, but fortunately the final result ended up exactly as it should have been in the end, just as it did in Vancouver. I wouldnt have had Nagasu beating Mao in the SP of those worlds either for that matter (that was the judges trying to compensate her for robbing her of the bronze in Vancouver).
The main problem for her was the flaws of COP scoring at the time meant even with all her triple axels her base value was virtually identical to Yu Na in both programs. Given that Yu Na will obviously beat her easily on jump GOE (and deservedly so, although I do think Mao's jumps are underrated in quality and better than most), that meant she had virtually no chance to win if both were clean, even had she been given as high or higher PCS, and been given slightly higher marks on spins and spirals. Another problem for her was she wasnt doing all the other triples then so she wasnt fully capatilizing on her triple axel advantage like she now does. Of course if she had the advantage of the Games being in Toyko like Sotnikova had with them in Sochi she would have won by over 20 points with both her and Kim clean, even her triple flutzes would have gotten higher GOE than Kim's, etc.... but sadly for her despite being 10 times more deserving of such a situation than Sotnikova that was not the case.
Kim beating Mao in the LP of worlds was simply wrong, but fortunately the final result ended up exactly as it should have been in the end, just as it did in Vancouver. I wouldnt have had Nagasu beating Mao in the SP of those worlds either for that matter (that was the judges trying to compensate her for robbing her of the bronze in Vancouver).
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- Mar 5, 2014
Mao's triple axel in the short is fully rotated and one of the most beautiful ones I have ever seen her do, with a tight centered spiral and smooth flow of the edge out of the jump, after watching on slow mo on an HD copy. She also has perfect, erect posture in and out of the jump and fully outstretched arms on exit, which should also increase the GOE. Her posture is more erect than any other competitor in the competition. Her back is always straight and extended as an arrow, After all these years on the eve of retirement, she finally gets the GOE she deserves, at least for this one jump in the SP.
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- Jun 16, 2010
Mao's triple axel is definitely not as well done as Ito or Harding (even ignoring the height factor) but the judges should give her way more leighway on the calls of it than they do. The judges should be encouraging risks that push the sport forward, and downgrading anything borderline is not how that is done. Now say Nakano doing triple axels and not even landing at the same spot as she took off (aka not even making a full 3 rotations) the downgrade is appropriate and deserved.
You took words right out of my mouth. I wonder if Korea will treat Mao generously in 2018 now that Yuna has retired? (if Mao continues, that is)
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- Jun 16, 2010
I imagine if Yu Na does not return for the 2018 Games (and I wouldnt be surprised if she does) and South Korea doesnt have a real contender by then, Mao will be the sentimental favorite of the Korean public and officials and fans at those Games, despite the long standing rivalry with Yu Na. I wouldnt even be surprised if the South Koreans in that case pay for a fix similar to the one that gifted Sotnikova her fraudelant Sochi game, making sure of Mao to win the gold if she simply does a somewhat clean short and lands 4 triples in the long.
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- Sep 17, 2011
But that wasn't what I said, was it? Not any program David Wilson might choreograph to Bells, but Mao's Bells of Moscow. Aside from being unable to attempt 5 out of the 7 jumping passes, she would not be able to pull off the spirals or the steps. I also don't think she would be able to slap herself with such conviction.
I think, with Yuna no longer in the picture, Koreans would care less about FS in general. They probably won't care to fix scores for anyone, but the audience may be less enthusiastic to cheer for Adelina.
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- Sep 17, 2011
Besides, Korea now has Soyoun Park, who did quite well at Worlds. She placed ahead of Canada's top lady, Japan's #3 (possibly soon to be #1), and China's #1. Korea could have more of her type coming along, even if Yuna is irreplaceable.
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- Mar 23, 2010
Reading some of the feedback makes me seriously 
Then 
Seriously Mao fans, isn't it time to let bygones be bygones, aren't you tired? Can we be nicer and less petty to each other?
Except I have never compared them doing each others program. It is an interesting topic for sure, but it is not what I said. If anything, I have extensively said they are VERY different skaters, I don't know how I can be anymore clearer <<click link. Please read back my posts. I don't even know why I am defending something I have not said.
Chapis, where did I say that? Exaggerate much? FYI, I am a 'she'. But since you brought it up, now I am honestly curious, which program would you suggest is the most difficult in history choreographically and musically?
This seems the post that started this craziness spun into something else. In an effort to play down the the difficulty of Adios Nonino, Minze claim 'Moa' can do ' Adios Anonimo' with her eyes closed. All I did was point out the obvious.
See
Consider the choreographically safer approach many consciously took with their programs this season (bring back their greatest hits, Russia/European themed, focus on points scoring, simplified choreography to improve consistency particularly Kostner's Bolero 2nd half that failed to deliver the wow factor neglected the fact the entire music was building towards the ending.), I just don't think they'd risk an ambitious choreography program like ADIOS. While most are more concerning about landing their jumps, not UR them, hit their levels. All things considered Yuna is simply performing on another level with this program. She is focused on musicality of a difficult, intricate and challenge piece of music despite its somber and individualistic nature. Far from conforming to a populist version, or the typical romanticized, audience friendly ladies program ideal (aka Ave Maria, Nocturne). By deliberately avoid over sentimentality actually it gives integrity and draws you in to judge more on the merit of what is being performed instead of emotionally black mail you to how you should feel about it. She 'danced' with where every note, jumps/landings, spins, choreographed movements to have clear layered intentions, timed to the exact note/beat with nuanced detailed variation of interpretations on the mood changes through out - in one seamless flow. No poseography, pause, break in between.
It is never about matching and packaging with Kim's program, and it takes certain character and risk taker to do that. I am really thankful of the struggle to realised a well rounded ambitious program that was finally realised at the Olympics. For me the real artists struggles, it is not ready made tried and tested formula. Art is a process, it is its quality of concepts, it is evolutionary, striving for originality, creativity, authenticity, unique qualities, and it is not just about the end result. A masterful display of virtuosity only those really at their top of their game with the sensitivity, maturity, exceptional musicality and most of all, a sincere attitude to realize figure skating as both art and sport can deliver this sort of program beyond points/medals. It is the reasons why I think this program is exceptional and a little regretful with the likely hood such jam packed choreograph ambition will never be attempted under COP again. Knowing the amount of efforts can not be equate with points and especially when it is not rewarded here, it set precedence that cookie cutter program with number crunching is here to stay.
Then Seriously Mao fans, isn't it time to let bygones be bygones, aren't you tired? Can we be nicer and less petty to each other?
Except I have never compared them doing each others program. It is an interesting topic for sure, but it is not what I said. If anything, I have extensively said they are VERY different skaters, I don't know how I can be anymore clearer <<click link. Please read back my posts. I don't even know why I am defending something I have not said.
It is ok to say that adios is the most difficult program that yuna had done, I dont doubt it, but to say that is the most difficult program of all the girls, and I am sure that he thinks that is the most difficult program ever in the history of figure skating, is absurd
Chapis, where did I say that? Exaggerate much? FYI, I am a 'she'. But since you brought it up, now I am honestly curious, which program would you suggest is the most difficult in history choreographically and musically?
This seems the post that started this craziness spun into something else. In an effort to play down the the difficulty of Adios Nonino, Minze claim 'Moa' can do ' Adios Anonimo' with her eyes closed. All I did was point out the obvious.
See
Well Moa can with Adios Anonimo, can Mao with Adios Nonino?
Consider the choreographically safer approach many consciously took with their programs this season (bring back their greatest hits, Russia/European themed, focus on points scoring, simplified choreography to improve consistency particularly Kostner's Bolero 2nd half that failed to deliver the wow factor neglected the fact the entire music was building towards the ending.), I just don't think they'd risk an ambitious choreography program like ADIOS. While most are more concerning about landing their jumps, not UR them, hit their levels. All things considered Yuna is simply performing on another level with this program. She is focused on musicality of a difficult, intricate and challenge piece of music despite its somber and individualistic nature. Far from conforming to a populist version, or the typical romanticized, audience friendly ladies program ideal (aka Ave Maria, Nocturne). By deliberately avoid over sentimentality actually it gives integrity and draws you in to judge more on the merit of what is being performed instead of emotionally black mail you to how you should feel about it. She 'danced' with where every note, jumps/landings, spins, choreographed movements to have clear layered intentions, timed to the exact note/beat with nuanced detailed variation of interpretations on the mood changes through out - in one seamless flow. No poseography, pause, break in between.
It is never about matching and packaging with Kim's program, and it takes certain character and risk taker to do that. I am really thankful of the struggle to realised a well rounded ambitious program that was finally realised at the Olympics. For me the real artists struggles, it is not ready made tried and tested formula. Art is a process, it is its quality of concepts, it is evolutionary, striving for originality, creativity, authenticity, unique qualities, and it is not just about the end result. A masterful display of virtuosity only those really at their top of their game with the sensitivity, maturity, exceptional musicality and most of all, a sincere attitude to realize figure skating as both art and sport can deliver this sort of program beyond points/medals. It is the reasons why I think this program is exceptional and a little regretful with the likely hood such jam packed choreograph ambition will never be attempted under COP again. Knowing the amount of efforts can not be equate with points and especially when it is not rewarded here, it set precedence that cookie cutter program with number crunching is here to stay.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2012
Reading some of the feedback makes me seriously
Seriously Mao fans, isn't it time to let bygones be bygones, aren't you tired? Can we be nicer and less petty to each other?
Except I have never compared them doing each others program. It is an interesting topic for sure, but it is not what I said. If anything, I have extensively said they are VERY different skaters, I don't know how I can be anymore clearer <<click link. Please read back my posts. I don't even know why I am defending something I have not said.
Chapis, where did I say that? Exaggerate much? FYI, I am a 'she'. But since you brought it up, now I am honestly curious, which program would you suggest is the most difficult in history choreographically and musically?
This seems the post that started this craziness spun into something else. In an effort to play down the the difficulty of Adios Nonino, Minze claim 'Moa' can do ' Adios Anonimo' with her eyes closed. All I did was point out the obvious.
See
Consider the choreographically safer approach many consciously took with their programs this season (bring back their greatest hits, Russia/European themed, focus on points scoring, simplified choreography to improve consistency particularly Kostner's Bolero 2nd half that failed to deliver the wow factor neglected the fact the entire music was building towards the ending.), I just don't think they'd risk an ambitious choreography program like ADIOS. While most are more concerning about landing their jumps, not UR them, hit their levels. All things considered Yuna is simply performing on another level with this program. She is focused on musicality of a difficult, intricate and challenge piece of music despite its somber and individualistic nature. Far from conforming to a populist version, or the typical romanticized, audience friendly ladies program ideal (aka Ave Maria, Nocturne). By deliberately avoid over sentimentality actually it gives integrity and draws you in to judge more on the merit of what is being performed instead of emotionally black mail you to how you should feel about it. She 'danced' with where every note, jumps/landings, spins, choreographed movements to have clear layered intentions, timed to the exact note/beat with nuanced detailed variation of interpretations on the mood changes through out - in one seamless flow. No poseography, pause, break in between.
It is never about matching and packaging with Kim's program, and it takes certain character and risk taker to do that. I am really thankful of the struggle to realised a well rounded ambitious program that was finally realised at the Olympics. For me the real artists struggles, it is not ready made tried and tested formula. Art is a process, it is its quality of concepts, it is evolutionary, striving for originality, creativity, authenticity, unique qualities, and it is not just about the end result. A masterful display of virtuosity only those really at their top of their game with the sensitivity, maturity, exceptional musicality and most of all, a sincere attitude to realize figure skating as both art and sport can deliver this sort of program beyond points/medals. It is the reasons why I think this program is exceptional and a little regretful with the likely hood such jam packed choreograph ambition will never be attempted under COP again. Knowing the amount of efforts can not be equate with points and especially when it is not rewarded here, it set precedence that cookie cutter program with number crunching is here to stay.
DO NOT blame me for your craziness and arrogance.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2013
Okaaay everyone, let's all calm down, we don't need another closed thread.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2012
Reading some of the feedback makes me seriously
Seriously Mao fans, isn't it time to let bygones be bygones, aren't you tired? Can we be nicer and less petty to each other?
Except I have never compared them doing each others program. It is an interesting topic for sure, but it is not what I said. If anything, I have extensively said they are VERY different skaters, I don't know how I can be anymore clearer <<click link. Please read back my posts. I don't even know why I am defending something I have not said.
Chapis, where did I say that? Exaggerate much? FYI, I am a 'she'. But since you brought it up, now I am honestly curious, which program would you suggest is the most difficult in history choreographically and musically?
This seems the post that started this craziness spun into something else. In an effort to play down the the difficulty of Adios Nonino, Minze claim 'Moa' can do ' Adios Anonimo' with her eyes closed. All I did was point out the obvious.
See
Consider the choreographically safer approach many consciously took with their programs this season (bring back their greatest hits, Russia/European themed, focus on points scoring, simplified choreography to improve consistency particularly Kostner's Bolero 2nd half that failed to deliver the wow factor neglected the fact the entire music was building towards the ending.), I just don't think they'd risk an ambitious choreography program like ADIOS. While most are more concerning about landing their jumps, not UR them, hit their levels. All things considered Yuna is simply performing on another level with this program. She is focused on musicality of a difficult, intricate and challenge piece of music despite its somber and individualistic nature. Far from conforming to a populist version, or the typical romanticized, audience friendly ladies program ideal (aka Ave Maria, Nocturne). By deliberately avoid over sentimentality actually it gives integrity and draws you in to judge more on the merit of what is being performed instead of emotionally black mail you to how you should feel about it. She 'danced' with where every note, jumps/landings, spins, choreographed movements to have clear layered intentions, timed to the exact note/beat with nuanced detailed variation of interpretations on the mood changes through out - in one seamless flow. No poseography, pause, break in between.
It is never about matching and packaging with Kim's program, and it takes certain character and risk taker to do that. I am really thankful of the struggle to realised a well rounded ambitious program that was finally realised at the Olympics. For me the real artists struggles, it is not ready made tried and tested formula. Art is a process, it is its quality of concepts, it is evolutionary, striving for originality, creativity, authenticity, unique qualities, and it is not just about the end result. A masterful display of virtuosity only those really at their top of their game with the sensitivity, maturity, exceptional musicality and most of all, a sincere attitude to realize figure skating as both art and sport can deliver this sort of program beyond points/medals. It is the reasons why I think this program is exceptional and a little regretful with the likely hood such jam packed choreograph ambition will never be attempted under COP again. Knowing the amount of efforts can not be equate with points and especially when it is not rewarded here, it set precedence that cookie cutter program with number crunching is here to stay.
First, I already apologized for misspelling the name of the program. Your response was irritating, because you seem to think YOU know more than anyone. WE ALL MAKE mistakes.
Second, I did not downplay the difficulty of Adios Nonino (did I spell it right)
. Did you miss the part where I said IMO Yuna Kim can skate to anything IF she has time to develop a program. Also IMO same goes for Mao and Carolina.- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
Ha ha. Funny you should talk about pettiness when in the fall, you were popping up in every thread to post tirades against Asada and the JSF because you were so terrified that she might actually win something in Sochi. I guess you got your wish when she bombed so horribly in the SP. Too bad you forgot to jinx Adelina!Seriously Mao fans, isn't it time to let bygones be bygones, aren't you tired? Can we be nicer and less petty to each other?
Mhm. I was mostly replying to yyyskate saying it's pointless to compare programs, not you, and I don't know why you would bother to defend something you haven't said. But then what's this?
That's not talking about them doing each other's programs at all, is it? Another thing: while we're busy correcting each other's spelling, it's Yin （陰） and Yang （陽） unless you're referring to Yuna and Mao as a nutritious pair (yingyang). As a fellow Taiwanese, I am disappointed in you.
How is using a tango being any more daring than using a "European-themed" program, whatever that is supposed to mean? Kanako has skated to Adios Nonino, Laura Lepisto has skated to Adios Nonino, you get the point. As for every move having clear layered intentions, I guess you were closing your eyes during Yuna's spiral in her choreographic sequence, which was done to nothing at all (though I'm sure you have churned up some reason for why the silence during the spiral means it is a daring, ultramodern expression of hybrid ballet/breakdancing and interpretative dance, so do feel free to explain the suitability of that move). It is even more amusing that you would attempt to take jabs at "romanticized, audience friendly ladies program ideal" when Yuna was doing exactly that during Send in the Clowns, which was nothing if not a sentimental, pretty ladies' program.
It is always about matching and packaging with Kim's programs. That was exactly why she found such success with her programs in the two seasons before Vancouver. Two seasons in a row she was packaged as the femme fatale in the SP. Her Giselle and Kiss of the Vampire, she was packaged as the mad girl in torment (though much less successfully than femme fatale). No need to delude yourself that she is some reincarnation of Michelle Kwan, Midori Ito, the Virgin Mary, and Jesus rolled into one immaculate woman.
Os168, no, adios nonino is not a obscure and complex music or program, adios nonino is a very popular tango, overused in figure skating, very easy to hear to everyone, my english is bad, but I mean, if you show that music to random people, they will like it, it is beautiful at first heard. Your descrpition of the music is more about a music like bells of moscow, And Yuna do has poses in her program, at least three, but for you remember, her finger in her mouth pose is not a very difficult element or coreography. So, no I dont know which program is the most difficult in the history of figure skating, but for sure is not adios nonino of yuna. And why you have doubts about Mao with that program? if she can to do rachmaninov step seq at the end of her program with great timing and energy, I dont see the problem with to do slower elements at timing with the music, Mao knows hear the music, to do elements at timing with the music, difficult elements, and especially she has a lot of stamina.
In my opinion, it is more probably Mao can achieve to do the whole program adios nonino than Yuna to do only Mao step sequence, let alone at the end of the program.
In my opinion, it is more probably Mao can achieve to do the whole program adios nonino than Yuna to do only Mao step sequence, let alone at the end of the program.
