Define ''Choking'' Please?

SusanBeth · Apr 2, 2004

Seriously, people use the term all the time, but I get the impression everyone is using their own personal definition. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

For me, choking would be not being able to perform at the level typical for you due to stress and''nerves''.

Your definition??

berthes ghost · Apr 2, 2004

Choking is to hold back due to emotion and not be able to deliver normally.

mike79 · Apr 2, 2004

Choking is what Plushenko did at Worlds in 2000!

He's much more consistent and polished now.

show 42 · Apr 2, 2004

I always feel that the use of the word "choking" is rather derogatory, a mean-spirited put-down for someone's less than stellar performance. I remember the "Choking" website right after the Oly's that listed athletes, teams, performances in an unflattering light.........how rude!! 42

bronxgirl · Apr 2, 2004

I tend to think of choking with certain baseball teams

berthes ghost · Apr 2, 2004

It bugs me when people avoid perfectly fine words because they associate a lot of added meaning to them.

Choke is choke, like fall is fall. "She fell" is not "She landed on her backside like the loser she is!", and "she choked" is not "she fell apart like the head-case loser she is!".

Avoiding the word choked for fear of being derogatory is right up there with "I'm not unemployed, I'm between engagements" or "She's not a housewife, she's a Domestic Engeineer" IMHO. :laugh:

What next? "I wouldn't call Ted Bundy a 'serial killer' per se, he just happened to murder several people in a row in a similar and organized manner. " :laugh:

show 42 · Apr 2, 2004

Berthe, the two examples you gave are fine, but "choke" is a word I think meant to be a snide way to say an athlete or performer didn't live up to their potential. It doesn't say why or how it happened, gives no reasons or circumstances or explanation..............it's incomplete, too open-ended in its implication, means different things to different people......just my take on it......

42

Ptichka · Apr 2, 2004

Here is the dictionary definition:
To fail to perform effectively because of nervous agitation or tension, especially in an athletic contest
Looks OK to me.

soogar · Apr 2, 2004

Choking is when an athlete has a lead in a big event and then loses it. For example, for the longest time Ivan Lendle was a choker because he won a lot of events and when it came to grand slams, he would make the finals and not win. He finally beat this when he won the French Open in 1984 but really came into his own in the US Open 1985 and then he beat his demons and won quite a few Grand Slam events.

Like it or not, MK choked in 2002. The pressure was on and she didn't stand up when she has skated lots of clean programs (even in 1998 Oly).

Todd choked in 1998 Oly when he was in 3rd after the short and couldn't pull through in the long.

Jill Trenary choked in 1989 Worlds after having a huge lead in figures and then hosing up her SP and LP. She almost lost worlds in 1990 b/c she didn't do well in SP, but she was able to skate decent in the LP (2nd to Ito) and win a world title.

BronzeisGolden · Apr 3, 2004

Personally, I choose not to use the word "choke". Certainly, it isn't really all that bad by itself. Here's how the dictionary defines the word: to lose one's composure and fail to perform effectively in a critical situation. Alright, not that bad. But, it is the manner in which this word is used in the sports world that bothers me. It is often part of a semi-slam or an extremely negative description or report. If a performance was bad, give the reasons why the performance was bad....falls, lack of emotion, etc. But, to say that someone simply "choked" is far too cut and dry for me (just as Show42 pointed out). I'd rather read or hear about possible explanations: lack of consistency, nerves, inability to stand up to certain types of pressures, etc. "Choked" is just a little too judgemental and narrow for me.

show 42 · Apr 3, 2004

Thanks, Bronze........that's exactly what I meant......42

Jaana · Apr 3, 2004

soogar said:
Choking is when an athlete has a lead in a big event and then loses it. For example, for the longest time Ivan Lendle was a choker because he won a lot of events and when it came to grand slams, he would make the finals and not win. He finally beat this when he won the French Open in 1984 but really came into his own in the US Open 1985 and then he beat his demons and won quite a few Grand Slam events.

I think that Ivan Lendl actually won lots of other competitions in tennis, but he did not succeed in the most prestigious one, Wimbledon.

Longhornliz · Apr 3, 2004

To me its innapropriate to use the term choke (especially in the case of MK in 2002) I think that her nerves and the emense pressure of the nation did factor into her less than perfect performance in the LP, but to say that she choked takes away from the amazing performance sarah hughes put on. Michelle was in the lead, but even if she had skated more cleanly we cant say that it was her gold to win or loose. Thats JMO.

I'm more of a sasha cohen fan personally... and I think she freaks out and looses focus a lot, but i dont think thats "choking" i think that its just inconsistency that will work its self out as she gets older.

soogar · Apr 3, 2004

Janna, Lendl had been competing and winning lots of non-Grand Slam Competitions since 1981 and always had a very high ranking. However prior to 1984, he had the monkey on his back that he was choker b/c he would make the finals at a Slam and then not win. He won French in 1984 (coming back from 2 sets down to Mac- maybe Mac choked) but didn't really hit his stride until the US Open 1985 and then he was very consistent.

Yeah , Lendl never won Wimbledon, but I wouldn't say that he choked because always lost to the player who wound up winning the whole thing and those matches were never close enough for it to be called choking. I mean, he was losing in 4 sets or so and never really had an advantage.

SusanBeth · Apr 3, 2004

Jill Trenary choked in 1989 Worlds after having a huge lead in figures and then hosing up her SP and LP. She almost lost worlds in 1990 b/c she didn't do well in SP, but she was able to skate decent in the LP (2nd to Ito) and win a world title.

Now, here's the problem with some of the examples. [I'm going strictly by memory and my memory has been wrong before.]Trenary, for example, almost never skated clean. Her world win wasn't clean either. It just wasn't as messed up as usual. Sasha has nothing on her in that area. I would watch Jill without the slightest hope of her skating clean. Is it choking, when a skater gives, what is career-wise, a better than typical skate? It's a given that the girl had tons of ability.

ETA-

Maybe this expresses it better-

Is choking relative to the skater's typical performance? Example: Michelle in 1998

And/or

Does it relate to the skaters abilities and your expectations with little consideration to what is typical?

Example: This year Sasha placed higher than ever. Her performance didn't do justice to her abilities, but wasn't as bad as other performances. Is this choking?

berthes ghost · Apr 3, 2004

If Jill consistantly skated clean in practices, but then always let the pressure/nerves of competition mess her up, then she's a bona-fied "choker".

There is no way that anyone can say that what Kwan delivered in SLC was typical of her. We've all seen her do much, much better (nats and worlds from that same year come to mind). Choke.

show 42 · Apr 3, 2004

The fact the Michelle is a consistent clean World and National competition skater, had a clean Oly skate in 98, doesn't mean she is a "choke" skater because she didn't win at SLC. She was on the podium for gosh sakes. Does not having a stellar performance occassionally mean you "choked"? Tiger Woods doesn't always play up to par, but I've never heard of anyone saying he "choked".......As far as not using this particular term because it's "derogatory", well, I think it is........Calling someone "Nuts" who is mentally unstable maybe accurate for his condition, but it's still another one of those snide terms used to put someone down..........again, just my take on it...42

heyang · Apr 3, 2004

I consider it choking when a skater performs well below personal norm when skating.

I don't consider MK's Oly performances as choking because they would be more than acceptable skates for anyone else. Even MK's poor qualifying performance would be considered a good day for many other skaters. Each of those performances had at most 1 fall - not exactly the same as missing a majority of the elements. They weren't her personal bests, but statistically probably fall within her normal success ratio when you factor in the jumps during practice.

What is an example of choking? Nancy's meltdown at 93 World's. She had a lock on the gold, but performed disastrously. Sure, she wasn't known for having clean LP's, but that was poor even for her. She really only had to stay up in order to win. Another choke - Plushy's 1st shot at World gold. He wanted it so badly that he performed his worst LP ever - he caved to the pressure of his own desires. I think he still ended up on the podium, but that was bad. In these cases, they choked because of their failure to complete a majority of moves that are completed more than 80% of the time inclusive of practices and competitions. In both of these instances, both skaters were healthy, too. (unlike Plush's recent performance at Europeans where he skated injured.)

SusanBeth · Apr 3, 2004

What is an example of choking? Nancy's meltdown at 93 World's. She had a lock on the gold, but performed disastrously. Sure, she wasn't known for having clean LP's, but that was poor even for her. She really only had to stay up in order to win. Another choke - Plushy's 1st shot at World gold. He wanted it so badly that he performed his worst LP ever - he caved to the pressure of his own desires. I think he still ended up on the podium, but that was bad. In these cases, they choked because of their failure to complete a majority of moves that are completed more than 80% of the time inclusive of practices and competitions. In both of these instances, both skaters were healthy, too. (unlike Plush's recent performance at Europeans where he skated injured.)

ITA, That's a great explanation of your opinion.

soogar · Apr 4, 2004

Jill's win in 1990 was the best I've ever seen her skate. You know, the standard of skating is a lot higher today than it was then. You didn't see the number of clean programs per competition as you see now so if she had one error, that really wasn't a big deal. Even Kristi fell when she won in 1992.

I don't think of one small error as a melt down. Choking is relative to the skater's previous performances. MK had one huge error when she normally puts down a clean program. I definitely think that Olympic nerves got to her and caused her to mess up because she had skated cleanly at Nationals and othe competitions.

Nancy's disaster at Worlds did not shock me at all. I didn't even think of her as a lock for the title b/c she always skated horrible programs.

Making the podium after a horrible skate does not mean you didn't choke. Nancy made the podium in 1992 and she just skated less horribly than everyone else.

MK did not choke in 1998!!! In fact , she skated excellent under the Olympic pressure and Tara just skated better.

Define ''Choking'' Please?

SusanBeth

berthes ghost

mike79

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

bronxgirl

berthes ghost

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

Ptichka

Forum translator

soogar

BronzeisGolden

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

Jaana

Longhornliz

soogar

SusanBeth

berthes ghost

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

heyang

SusanBeth

soogar

Similar threads

Connect with us