Sotnikova wants to add quadruple toe loop? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Sotnikova wants to add quadruple toe loop?

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Usually I would agree with you but Adelina has been put in a very hard place. She has to say she's working hard and trying to better the difficulty of her programs or people will come after her next season with accusations of laziness unbecoming of someone with an OGM. She has to push herself to an impossibly high standard because of the controversy surrounding her win.

(Not that I agree with her win, but I can't stand that people sent death threats to her. It wasn't under her control, people.)

Well, then she can prove herself at the next Worlds on the ice, not through the gossip-mongering press. I can't imagine anyone accusing her of laziness. She skated her best, the judging was skewed, so in actuality, she is faultless. But stop the attention-seeking claims to attempt this and that jump; it will only exacerbate the situation. Lay low and only take gigs that pay well.
 

chalk5

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Yeah I think she is just a clueless teenager, which we all stand at times. I don't know but I see way too many potential Russians coming up, and the federation would most likely not support her for next Olympics because of this huge controversy, and rather raise top level performers.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Just curious, why wouldn't two 3-3s be effective for lifting one's score?

There are seven jump passes in the free skate for ladies, three of which may be combinations. Only two types of triples may be repeated twice, and double-axels can be repeated twice. A lady skater w/ full set of triples minus a triple-axel can do the following:

triple-lutz-triple-loop
triple-flip
triple-salchow
triple-flip-triple-toe loop
triple-lutz

in the first five jump passes, thereby using up all the triples she can include in a program. The skater still has two jump passes which she may fill with double jumps (axels, most likely), but given that the chances of the second triple in a combination being ratified are quite slim (particularly the triple loop), it is smarter point-wise to do double jumps in the combination passes (which are far more likely to be ratified), and use your triple jumps as singular jumps in the 6th and 7th jump passes. So do something like:

triple-lutz-triple-toe-loop
triple-flip
triple-salchow
triple-flip-double-loop-double-loop
triple-lutz
triple-loop
double-axel-double-loop

Since Adelina actually doesn't have a lutz, she can only do 4 types of triples, if she wants to do two combos with triple-triple, what she could do is:

triple-flip-triple-toe loop
triple-flip
triple-salchow-single-loop-triple-loop
triple-loop
double-axel-double-toe loop-double loop
double-axel
double-lutz (I presume she can do a double lutz; otherwise, double-flip)

Which is a silly layout, and not at all CoP-smart.
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Let's just say her artistry is pretty junky and her skating skills pretty clunky.

:laugh:
I would be more impressed if she like Hanyu planned to work on weak aspects of her skating and improve overall than giving meaningless promises to work on a quad admitting at the same time that it is not likely to happen next season. I read this as a sign that she feels insecure in a light of Julia's consistency and bigger popularity and also of success of Anna P at Worlds
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
So Adelina really wants a 4Toe. Lol. I wonder how long it'll take for a Russian girl to actually do a 4Toe.

There are seven jump passes in the free skate for ladies, three of which may be combinations. Only two types of triples may be repeated twice, and double-axels can be repeated twice. A lady skater w/ full set of triples minus a triple-axel can do the following:

in the first five jump passes, thereby using up all the triples she can include in a program. The skater still has two jump passes which she may fill with double jumps (axels, most likely), but given that the chances of the second triple in a combination being ratified are quite slim (particularly the triple loop), it is smarter point-wise to do double jumps in the combination passes (which are far more likely to be ratified), and use your triple jumps as singular jumps in the 6th and 7th jump passes. So do something like:
Yeah, no. Toe loops are not that hard to get ratified, and both Sotnikova and Asada got backend 3Loops ratified this season, so it's not impossible. Adelina flutzes but she rarely misses her flutz, so she has 5 types of triples available for use, even if one kind always gets a deduction. Her best layout this season was
3Lutz-3Loop
3Flip
3Loop
2Axel-3Toe
3Salchow
3Flip-2Toe-2Loop
2Axel

If she actually gets a quad toe, she could do this:
4Toe
3Lutz-3Loop
3Flip
3Toe-3Toe
2Axel
3Salchow
3Flip-2Toe-2Loop
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
And it will be pretty controversial if all the other great ladies out there are doing clean programs and getting lower PCS than her seemingly only because she has the OGM.

If Mao and Caro retire, Adelina will be the best one left. Who deserves better PCS? Ashley? Gracie?
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Since Adelina actually doesn't have a lutz, she can only do 4 types of triples, if she wants to do two combos with triple-triple, what she could do is:

triple-flip-triple-toe loop
triple-flip
triple-salchow-single-loop-triple-loop
triple-loop
double-axel-double-toe loop-double loop
double-axel
double-lutz (I presume she can do a double lutz; otherwise, double-flip)

Which is a silly layout, and not at all CoP-smart.

The fact that she doesnt have a lutz doesn't matter to the current rules. she can flutz all day and only receive 0~-1 GOE.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
If she actually gets a quad toe, she could do this:
4Toe
3Lutz-3Loop
3Flip
3Toe-3Toe
2Axel
3Salchow
3Flip-2Toe-2Loop

Her Best layout/most probable.. (as if a 4T is probable)... assuming from history that 3Lz-3Lo is basically impossible to get ratified.

4T
3Lz(e)-3T\
3F-1Lo-3S
3F
2A-3T
3Lo
2A

1 Quad, 7 triples, 2 2As, this would be one ridiculous technical program to pull off. Basically a men's program.
 

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Her Best layout/most probable.. (as if a 4T is probable)... assuming from history that 3Lz-3Lo is basically impossible to get ratified.

4T
3Lz(e)-3T\
3F-1Lo-3S

3F
2A-3T
3Lo
2A

1 Quad, 7 triples, 2 2As, this would be one ridiculous technical program to pull off. Basically a men's program.

Her legs are gonna fall off after that:laugh:
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I don't think she could control her jumps enough to do the 3F-1Lo-3S anyway...
Yeah, none of her jumps are particularly attractive or controlled though she has lots of power. I don't understand why people think 3-1Lo-3S combos can be learned so easily.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Yeah, none of her jumps are particularly attractive or controlled though she has lots of power. I don't understand why people think 3-1Lo-3S combos can be learned so easily.

I don't think anyone thinks that they are easy to learn! I don't think the combination gets enough points for its difficulty. Maybe its from seeing Hanyu have basically no speed coming out of the 3Lz, and somehow pull out a 3S.

but that's just because he's hanyu...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I don't think she could control her jumps enough to do the 3F-1Lo-3S anyway...

I agree... her flip landing lacks flow and she's not the type who can pull a 3S out of thin air like the Russian babies or Edmunds, given how she usually executes 3S.
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Half loop combinations works for who doesn't have good double axels (Pogorilaya,Radionova,Edmunds) Sotnikova have 2A+3T unlike those skaters and actually with half loop you are giving couple of points because of 2T base value higher than half loop base value.

If two 2A+3T are allowed (Lipnitskaia did in her junior years) this layout could work for her.

4toe or 3lutz
2axel+3toe+2toe
3flip
3loop
2axel+3toe
3flip+2toe+2toe
3salchow
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Her 3 toe is by far her strongest and highest triple, and it is by far the easiest quad too, so obviously that is the one to try if she is going to do. Someone like Ando did the quad salchow since the 3 salchow was her strongest jump

I do wonder about whether the 4T or 4S is easier for women. Bonaly (unsuccessfully) tried both, and Cohen and Ando attempted the 4S. I'm not aware of any other quad attempts but it is interesting that all the women who have tried quads have tried the 4S.

I don't imagine Adelina being able to do either quad because her 3T isn't very straight and her 3S isn't one of her best jumps.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
I want to see it first to believe it. Right now this is just for media attention.
Personally I think that she should polish her existing technical elements first before doing something that will cause her more injuries. Trying to do something dangerous might affect her existing array of technical elements. Like how Mao's 3A affected her other jumps.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
When she was little, Mao practiced quad salchow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yEgPt-faII) and quad loop (I can't find a clip but it's somewhere on YouTube), and as I understand it, practicing the quad salchow made her lose her timing on her triple salchow, and I think it took her a long time to get the triple salchow back. So I think someone who practices a triple-axel or quad jump will risk losing the same jump done with less rotation for a while at least.

But when I see Mao's triple salchow now, she almost over-rotates this jump, and I wish I could see her trying a quad salchow again. Still, I think a quad jump is enormously difficult for even the most athletically gifted of women, and it would require a whole lot of training, and doing a great deal of the jump with pristine technique, for a woman to pull it off, I think.

So many people are prone to dissing Mao's axel technique, but in fact, her technique is really, really good, and that's why she can do a triple-axel.
 
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