Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater " | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
You are funny. He never did with Joubert. He always praised him especially in the last years. Joubert was invited Plushy's shows not once. And Joubert said not so long ago he wants to perform Plushy's next shows. He is in a very good relatonship.
Chan was the first who attacked Plushy before Vancouver. And Chan was nothing in that time....I can show you many articles where Plushy prases Chan as an incredible good skater..

I'm saying, all 3 skaters have made disparaging comments about other skaters at some point in time. And it is wrong. I don't care how many World titles or Olympic medals you have. It's unclassy, it's disrespectful, and it does not belong in the sport.

And it's incredibly stupid to insult Kovtun in just his 2nd season as a senior. Technically, his first seeing as how he was a junior-competing-as-a-senior two years ago in Euros/Worlds. It would be as silly as Chan saying Nguyen is a good, average skater.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
stop diverting the conversaion :rolleye:

Stop avoiding the question. ;)

If you agree with Plushenko that 4th at Worlds for Kovtun makes him an average skater and a headcase, wouldn't that also make Gracie who placed 5th average skater? Technically, Kovtun has had a superior season to Gold (even without competing in Sochi), and they're both in their second season -- really, Kovtun has done 1.5 seasons as a senior.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
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Nov 20, 2011
Stop avoiding the question. ;)

If you agree with Plushenko that 4th at Worlds for Kovtun makes him an average skater and a headcase, wouldn't that also make Gracie who placed 5th average skater? Technically, Kovtun has had a superior season to Gold (even without competing in Sochi), and they're both in their second season -- really, Kovtun has done 1.5 seasons as a senior.

what does Gracie have to do with this thread :scowl:
might as well comment about Osmond here
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Also, it's interesting that in spite of being such an average skater, Kovtun's SP personal best is better than Plushenko's SP personal best. :popcorn:

And, well, he lost his National title to this average skater... so there's that too. :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
what does Gracie have to do with this thread :scowl:
might as well comment about Osmond here

The thread is about Kovtun being called an average skater considering his 4th placement at Worlds. So naturally, I (and volk) asked if other skaters who placed 4th and lower should also be considered "average", which includes Gold.
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
If you agree with Plushenko that 4th at Worlds for Kovtun makes him an average skater and a headcase, wouldn't that also make Gracie who placed 5th average skater? Technically, Kovtun has had a superior season to Gold (even without competing in Sochi), and they're both in their second season -- really, Kovtun has done 1.5 seasons as a senior.
I don't think either is average, though Gracie is a better skater than Kovtun. I do think that they both have a way to go before they go from above average (for the elite level) to truly special.

Kovtun is 18 and will turn 19 in June. At a comparable age, Plushenko had already completed four senior seasons and had won three World medals (one gold) and four European medals (two gold). IIRC, 4th at Worlds was his career worst. Hanyu, whom Plushenko clearly thinks very highly of, had three senior seasons under his belt, with a world medal and a pair of 4CC medals before he turned 19, since boosted with a World title and of course an OGM. I can see why he'd look at Kovtun and find him average in comparison. He's not comparing him to recreational skaters but to those at an elite level.

When Plushenko was getting 90s in the SP and 160s in the LP, those were extremely high scores. You can't compare scores from 2013-14 to those of skaters whose peak years were earlier. Kovtun also has a higher PB than Lambiel, would you like to argue his superiority compared to Stephane?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
The age argument is asinine. It would be like if Tara Lipinski called Gracie Gold or Polina Edmunds "average skaters" because they don't have World medals or Olympic titles, and she had both at the age of 14.
 

plushyfan

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Country
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There was some sniping earlier in their careers, but AFAIK they've had a good working relationship since at least the 2009-10 season. IIRC Joubert said something about how Plushenko in real life is much nicer than the public persona he sometimes projects. Normally it's the other way around with famous people ;)

Plushy are really good friends with Lambiel, Verner, Weir, he has good relatonship with Joubert, Brezina, Amodio and Misha Ge. Misha has a great memory about Plushy. Yuzuru is so devoted for him. Mao said in an interview some week ago she admires two persons in his life, Midori Ito and Evgeni Plushenko. And I can continue the skaters names. And we don't forget about Jason Brown!! Plushy was who went him and said" I like your skating.." with such a simply words.. Can you imagine what did Jason feel??? So cute story...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013

Agreed.

It's beyond stupid to criticize Kovtun for being unable to win Euros when he would have required 268 points, and unable to medal at worlds which would have required 276 points. :laugh:

Plushenko's personal bests wouldn't have won Euros, and it certainly would have left him off the podium at Worlds. :rolleye:
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
The age argument is asinine. It would be like if Tara Lipinski called Gracie Gold or Polina Edmunds "average skaters" because they don't have World medals or Olympic titles, and she had both at the age of 14.
You're the one who keeps pointing that Kovtun is young and has only completed two senior seasons. Do I need to remind you what Plushenko and Hanyu accomplished in their first two senior seasons? Or Joubert? Or Chan? All of whom while the same age or younger than Kovtun?

Maybe Kovtun will develop over time, but at the moment he is not a great skater and I have no problem with Plushenko saying so, especially given how much flack he's taken for supposedly robbing Kovtun of an Olympic spot.

And again, regarding scores: Plushenko was getting 90s in the SP and 160s in the LP when those scores were basically world records or very near it. You can't compare scores from 2013-14 to those of skaters whose peak was earlier. Kovtun has a higher PB than Lambiel, and he's certainly nowhere near the skater Lambiel is.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
he could have, Kovtun qualified to GPF and finished 5th and won Nationals to build momentum yet chocked at Euros
Worlds same choked in the SP and FS

You're honestly saying he choked for failing to score 276 points in the SP+FS?! Plushenko's personal best is 261 which would have also had him 4th no matter how clean he skated. :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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You're the one who keeps pointing that Kovtun is young and has only completed two senior seasons. Do I need to remind you what Plushenko and Hanyu accomplished in their first two senior seasons? Or Joubert? Or Chan? All of whom while the same age or younger than Kovtun?

Technically, Kovtun has only had 1 full senior season. Let's not forget that he was supposed to go to Junior Worlds but was fast-tracked to senior worlds where OBVIOUSLY he wasn't going to light it up, given his experience to that point was the Junior Grand Prix. This season, he won two silver medals on the Grand Prix and went from 17th at Senior Worlds (as a junior, for all intents and purposes) to 4th at Senior worlds. That is NOT average.

I'm not saying he's an amazing skater, and I agree that he will develop over time. But to label a skater in their 2nd season just "average" is really unfair, especially when they win Russian Nationals, qualify for the GPF, has executed two different quads and has done 2 quads in his SP and attempts 3 in his FS (something Plushenko wasn't capable of at 19 or ever), and come 4th at Worlds.

I can picture Plushenko trolling Kovtun throughout his entire career, saying how he hasn't measured up.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
You're the one who keeps pointing that Kovtun is young and has only completed two senior seasons. Do I need to remind you what Plushenko and Hanyu accomplished in their first two senior seasons? Or Joubert? Or Chan? All of whom while the same age or younger than Kovtun?

Maybe Kovtun will develop over time, but at the moment he is not a great skater and I have no problem with Plushenko saying so, especially given how much flack he's taken for supposedly robbing Kovtun of an Olympic spot.

And again, regarding scores: Plushenko was getting 90s in the SP and 160s in the LP when those scores were basically world records or very near it. You can't compare scores from 2013-14 to those of skaters whose peak was earlier. Kovtun has a higher PB than Lambiel, and he's certainly nowhere near the skater Lambiel is.
Buttercup, you are my hero :love:
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
Technically, Kovtun has only had 1 full senior season. Let's not forget that he was supposed to go to Junior Worlds but was fast-tracked to senior worlds where OBVIOUSLY he wasn't going to light it up, given his experience to that point was the Junior Grand Prix. This season, he won two silver medals on the Grand Prix and went from 17th at Senior Worlds (as a junior, for all intents and purposes) to 4th at Senior worlds. That is NOT average.

I'm not saying he's an amazing skater, and I agree that he will develop over time. But to label a skater in their 2nd season just "average" is really unfair, especially when they win Russian Nationals, qualify for the GPF, and come 4th at Worlds.
Actually, Kovtun made his senior debut back in the 2011-12 season, at the World Team Trophy. I don't think finishing dead last there really reflects poorly on him, though - back then, he really was a junior. Although if we're doing the Gold-Kovtun comparison, that WTT was also Gracie's senior debut, and she finished fifth.

I don't have a problem with saying that Kovtun has potential, but it's not yet realized potential, and I feel that both his marks and some of the assignments he gets are not commensurate with what he's putting on the ice.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Actually, Kovtun made his senior debut back in the 2011-12 season, at the World Team Trophy.

I don't have a problem with saying that Kovtun has potential, but it's not yet realized potential, and I feel that both his marks and some of the assignments he gets are not commensurate with what he's putting on the ice.

The only assignment that he didn't deserve was 2013 Worlds. His marks are a bit high, but I think his SP this year was brilliant, and he had some solid freeskates. At Worlds, his only major issue was the singled 4S in the FS, and everything else he did. In the SP, he pretty much landed both quads (UR on the 4S).

As for Plushenko getting 90s in the SP back when those were World records, how do you explain Plushenko going clean in the 2014 team SP in Sochi and still getting lower than Kovtun's personal best? :popcorn:

Oh right, because Kovtun -- average skater that he is -- executes two quads in his SP instead of just one. Kovtun's 2 quads in his SP is superior - at least from a technical standpoint - than any of Plushenko's 1-quad SPs.
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
The only assignment that he didn't deserve was 2013 Worlds. His marks are a bit high, but I think his SP this year was brilliant.

As for Plushenko getting 90s in the SP when those were World records, how do you explain Plushenko going clean in the team SP in Sochi and still getting lower than Kovtun's personal best? Oh right, because Kovtun -- average skater that he is -- does two quads in his SP instead of one. Kovtun's 2 quads in his SP is more of a personal best - at least from a technical standpoint - than any of Plushenko's 1-quad SPs.
Really? He deserved 2013 Euros? I think Menshov deserved it. So did basically all the Russian skaters.

As for the scores, let's put away the :popcorn: and go back to what I wrote:
You can't compare scores from 2013-14 to those of skaters whose peak was earlier.
Was Plushenko at his peak this past season? It's all hypotheticals, but I bet if Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert and Buttle, to name a few, had peaked in this quad rather than the previous decade, their PBs would have been at least 10-15 points higher.

Plushenko's combined score at the team event was still better than anything Kovtun ever put together, BTW. And you can say that's reputation scoring, but the Russian fed was still right to choose the skater with the best chance of scoring well.

Whether you're playing devil's advocate or really believe that Kovtun is some shining talent, this has gotten boring.
 
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