The Japanese Ladies

Vash01 · Apr 5, 2004

Joesitz said:
RG and Vash - I agree Yukina needs to up the triples combos and with consistency. What I was thinking about, is that Shizuka has shown the others that Japanese Ladies can be Queen of the Ice. That sentiment gives motitvation for the others to work harder. Bottom line for us is to muse and wait.

I would say that in Dortmund, Irina got the biggest ovation. She is very popular throughout Europe. Her home town presence in 2005 is an advantage for the podium and a win if she is up to her best.

My home town theory is based on my two Worlds I've seen live. MK got the gold in DC over a very high level technical of Elena. I'm sure the roar of the crowd has some influence on the judges., although it didn't quite work for Timmy but then he was up against the King of the Ice. With the roar of the crowd in Dortmund, it was clear that Lindemann would win over Lambiel, but also Winkler and Lohse v. Grushina and Gronov(sp). Both Lambiel and G&G were arguably better. However, the Germans were very good too, and that's where subjectivity comes in.

Carolina in 2006? No surprise to me if she's on the podium., and maybe Yukina, too.

Joe

Joe,

I agree. Home crowd can influence the judges. I have seen it many times, and at these worlds it seemed a bit too obvious.

Irina's return was a big story at these worlds. Given the seriousness of her illness a top 10 finish was a very good one for her. If she is healthy next year, and has skated in a few competitions prior to worlds, she could challenge for at least a podium spot. She is capable of matching the Japanese gals in the jumps and has a great presence on the ice. One cannot count Sokolva out either, although she had a bad year.

Carolina certainly seems to be moving toward that podium spot in Torino. I thought she was overmarked in the LP, perhaps to help her move to the podium in 2006? That may be a bit farfetched but Italy has not had a top level lady skater, and the crowd will certainly go wild.

I would love to see Yukina on the podium. If Shizuka does well this year (at least medals at worlds) she will be one of the faves at the Olympics. Alas, there are just 3 spots on the podium. If history is any indication, all these ladies will be too old in 2006 to win the Olympic gold.

Vash

Ogre Mage · Apr 5, 2004

I don't see a Japanese sweep of the podium in 2005 unless the U.S. skaters all die in a plane crash like in 1961.

But they will be major contenders throughout the next season. Shizuka may struggle with the pressure of being WC but the goods are definitely there for her to consistently challenge for the podium. I saw flashes of potential artistry in Ando, but I'm not sure if one year is enough for it to come to fruition yet. Even without that, the quad could get her on the podium. Suguri is always a podium threat if she can skate (close to) clean and waiting in the wings is Ota who most Americans haven't seen yet. They have an extremely deep and talented team.

Carolina certainly seems to be moving toward that podium spot in Torino. I thought she was overmarked in the LP, perhaps to help her move to the podium in 2006? That may be a bit farfetched but Italy has not had a top level lady skater, and the crowd will certainly go wild.

I don't think it is farfetched at all. Her marks were a travesty. Yes, she landed a 3/3/2. But a program with 3 major errors, terrible choreography, music which sounded like it was pasted together with a karaoke machine, the presentation skills of a novice skater including a layback that belonged at the Special Olympics and a costume which was exceeded in ugliness only by Shizuka's SP dress did not deserve 5.7-5.8s and even, god forbid, one 5.9. Did I mention $peedy is from Italy? Of course, we'll never know which "judging hoes" decided that her Zamboni imitation was worthy of such high marks because of the sekret computer!

I would have had Kostner in 7th place at best.

icenut84 · Apr 5, 2004

Ogre Mage said:
I don't think it is farfetched at all. Her marks were a travesty. Yes, she landed a 3/3/2. But a program with 3 major errors, terrible choreography, music which sounded like it was pasted together with a karaoke machine, the presentation skills of a novice skater including a layback that belonged at the Special Olympics and a costume which was exceeded in ugliness only by Shizuka's SP dress did not deserve 5.7-5.8s and even, god forbid, one 5.9. Did I mention $peedy is from Italy? Of course, we'll never know which "judging hoes" decided that her Zamboni imitation was worthy of such high marks because of the sekret computer! I would have had Kostner in 7th place at best.

Jeez, she wasn't that bad. Costume and music is subjective (I liked them) and her layback is quite good. Yes she did have errors, but even though she had some high technical marks her presentation marks were much lower and her ordinals were not ridiculously high. How do you know the judges didn't have to give her a high tech mark and a lower pres mark in order to get the ordinal they wanted? Yes she had a fall on the second 3lutz (which isn't a deduction - it just counts as not doing it, and affects the pres mark), but when you take into account her speed and edges, her difficult and completely clean 3-3-2, the other jumps she landed cleanly, her good spins etc, maybe that's why the tech mark was high and the pres mark was lower. And the marks are not *that* ridiculous when you remember that Kwan and Cohen also got 5.8s and 5.9s (IIRC) for technical merit, even with a mistake each, little in the way of in betweens (especially from Kwan, who had little in the way of content at all), and no 3-3s. JMO. If you give Kwan's LP a tech mark of 5.8 or 5.9, Kostner's similar mark is not that way off IMO. Her presenation mark, however, was lower, which gave her a lower ordinal.

hockeyfan228 · Apr 5, 2004

thvudragon said:
jesslily, I don't see how you can say that most of the Japanese Ladies have great jumping technique. The best is Arakawa and Ando, but besides them, almost all the Japanese ladies have very questionable technique. Fumie has poor jump quality in almost all her jumps (except the flip). Yoshie lands on the flat of her blade. Nakano has horrible technique in her edge jumps. Asada has a horrid toe-axel. Ota's jumps are loads better than last season, much higher, but she still has poor runout and cheated jumps.

I'm not sure it matters, one way or the other. At Dortmund, attempts among the Ladies seem to count more than execution. While her presentation was smoother and lighter in the qualis compared to the heaviness in her legs in the LP, I believe that Ando's attempts at the 4Sal (fall) and 3/3 (underrotated) were what landed her in 2nd in the qualis. (I would have had her in 5th in her round.) Both Ando's and Arakawa's 3/3 in the SP had errors. Kostner's 3/3 in the SP was executed very well once she launched it, but she has an awful telegraph into her lutz and flip, in which she holds her arms stiffly to the sides and clenches her fists. In the SP this wasn't as jarring as in the LP, because her jump from steps was turning 3's into 3R, and it only happened once, but repeated over and over again in the long takes away from her program as much as Liashenko's telegraph does. Kostner landed the 3/3/2 in both the qualis and LP; to the judges this seemed to outweigh the numerous mistakes she made in the rest of her program in both phases.

Suguri was downright weak in the qualis, landing almost no clean jumps. Although she improved in the SP and LP, in comparison to the other women in her competition, to me she looked like she had found her natural level in the second-to-last group.

Vash01 · Apr 5, 2004

icenut84 said:
Jeez, she wasn't that bad. Costume and music is subjective (I liked them) and her layback is quite good. Yes she did have errors, but even though she had some high technical marks her presentation marks were much lower and her ordinals were not ridiculously high. How do you know the judges didn't have to give her a high tech mark and a lower pres mark in order to get the ordinal they wanted? Yes she had a fall on the second 3lutz (which isn't a deduction - it just counts as not doing it, and affects the pres mark), but when you take into account her speed and edges, her difficult and completely clean 3-3-2, the other jumps she landed cleanly, her good spins etc, maybe that's why the tech mark was high and the pres mark was lower. And the marks are not *that* ridiculous when you remember that Kwan and Cohen also got 5.8s and 5.9s (IIRC) for technical merit, even with a mistake each, little in the way of in betweens (especially from Kwan, who had little in the way of content at all), and no 3-3s. JMO. If you give Kwan's LP a tech mark of 5.8 or 5.9, Kostner's similar mark is not that way off IMO. Her presenation mark, however, was lower, which gave her a lower ordinal.

If you take into account the whole program- not just the first 45 seconds- Kostner had numerous mistakes. It was not just the case of falling, then getting up quickly to continue. Her falls were jarring, and should have brought down her presentation marks substantially. True, there are no deductions, but apart from that first 3-3-2 she had nothing in that program, other than raw speed. You really cannot compare her with Michelle and Sasha's programs, even though they did not have a 3-3. Michelle's technique was superb throughout and Sasha held her own, even though it was not one of her better performances. Her stiff arms made her look like a robot- not an indication of good presentation. She could have gotten away with it had she not mopped the ice so many times. Carolina' high marks - tech & presentation- were shockingly high, considering what a mature skate of Julia S. received. Carolina has a lot of talent, but she is still like a junior level skater.

Vash

euterpe · Apr 5, 2004

Vash01: "I really feel that Miki is being judged too harshly, too soon. She is young and has not developed all aspects of her skating. Remember what Kristi Yamaguchi looked like in 1989, or Michelle in 1994. Miki needs time to develop her presentation."

Michelle was THIRTEEN in 1994! And looked it! Michelle sure didn't look undeveloped when she won her first World title at 15 in 1996. Miki is SIXTEEN! At 16, Sasha's presentation was already causing a minor sensation.

The problem is Miki has spent all of her time on developing jumps, and not much time on developing her SKATING. She is also one of the least musical skaters I have ever seen, and that is going to be a serious problem for her in developing her presentation skills.

dizzydi · Apr 5, 2004

Carolina

Vash,

I absolutely agree with you about Carolina. Her LP performance was terrible. Her scores were ridiculously high for that program. I felt sorry and embarassed for her because she looked worse than most juniors. Talk about a fall disrupting a program. When she fell on her back, that was a mess!

Her placement at 2004 Worlds is a joke, in my opinion.

Dizzy

Vash01 · Apr 5, 2004

euterpe said:
Vash01: "I really feel that Miki is being judged too harshly, too soon. She is young and has not developed all aspects of her skating. Remember what Kristi Yamaguchi looked like in 1989, or Michelle in 1994. Miki needs time to develop her presentation."

Michelle was THIRTEEN in 1994! And looked it! Michelle sure didn't look undeveloped when she won her first World title at 15 in 1996. Miki is SIXTEEN! At 16, Sasha's presentation was already causing a minor sensation.

The problem is Miki has spent all of her time on developing jumps, and not much time on developing her SKATING. She is also one of the least musical skaters I have ever seen, and that is going to be a serious problem for her in developing her presentation skills.

Michelle and Sasha were exceptions. Most 16 year olds are not that developed in their presentation. Katia Gordeeva at 16 was a mature pairs skater, but not all 16 year olds are. These ladies are/were exceptions. Compared to other 16 year olds Miki does not look bad at all; just average in her presentation. For example, compare her with 17 year old Carolina Kostner or 16 year old Sarah Hughes who skated with lot of joy but awful posture. So what if Miki spent more time developing her jumps? Others developed artistry but not jumps so it evens out.

euterpe · Apr 5, 2004

Hughes may have had poor posture, but she WAS musical and at 16 she was able to interpret her programs--you didn't see stroking or moves unrelated to the music. And yes, she DID show joy. She didn't relate that much to the audience, but it was plain she understood her music and expressed it, at least for herself.

Ando hasn't even scratched the surface of musical interpretation, and I get the feeling she simply doesn't relate to the music she is using at all. I haven't seen anything like simple joy in her skating. To me, it looks like she has a job to do and she is grimly doing it.

Jimena · Apr 5, 2004

My first post, so please be gentle.

Ando hasn't even scratched the surface of musical interpretation, and I get the feeling she simply doesn't relate to the music she is using at all. I haven't seen anything like simple joy in her skating. To me, it looks like she has a job to do and she is grimly doing it.

I might have to disagree with you there. To me she looked overwhelmed by the ocassion during the LP, but she was lovely in the SP, including wonderful spins, great flow, great 3-3, lovely arms, good musicality... She was wonderful, and made a very good first impression on me.

And I don't think that Carolina's lacking that much either in the presentation department. She needs to improve her hands, IMO, mostly, because she keeps them stiff when doing crossovers and has developed a nervous tick when preparing for a Lutz of flip. Other than that, her spins (except the layback) are great, her flow is unmatched and she is musical.

Mathman · Apr 5, 2004

Hi Jimena. Thanks for jumping in. We're a pretty gentle bunch here, usually. :laugh:

I hope you enjoy Golden Skate.

I saw clips of Miki Ando from the Japanese Nationals. I liked her presentation just fine. I agree that in the Worlds LP she felt "overwhelmed by the occasion" -- who wouldn't?

As for Carolina Kostner, this was the first time I saw her skate and I was a little bit disappointed after all the hullabaloo. I have to give her credit or not backing down and giving a good attempt at all of her technical elements, but I thought she was overmarked. I thought Julia Sebestien should have been fourth, then Ando, then Kostner.

Mathman

berthes ghost · Apr 5, 2004

Look up "inconsistant" in the dictionary and there is a picture of Carolina Kostner.

This was the 4th time I'd seen her live, and the expression "on any given day" comes to mind.

03 JGPF she was flat and unremarkable.
03 Euros she bombed the SP, but set the place on fire with a feisty LP.
04 Euros she was a mess.
04 Worlds, she was energetic in the SP, but crashed and burned half way thru the LP.

I'm talking about presentation. Hot and Cold, one never knows if Carolina is going to show or her evil twin cousin.

Jimena · Apr 5, 2004

Mathman,

Yes, I think that Kostner was overmarked. I just don't think she's that "juniorish" in the presentation department...

Oh, and thanks for welcoming me!

Jimena

Ogre Mage · Apr 5, 2004

With regards to Ando, I think perhaps she may just need some time yet. Everyone matures at different paces. Look, for instance, at Shizuka or Irina Slutskaya. Neither were very impressive as teenagers. But both ladies, as they grew older, eventually blossomed and began to really improve both technically and artistically -- culminating in World Gold Medals at the ripe old age of 22. If you compare Shizuka or Irina at the 1998 Olympics vs. Irina's 2002 Worlds win or Shizuka this year, it looks like two entirely different skaters.

Kwan is unique in that she rose to the top as a youngster (15) and managed to stay there. But she is very, very unusual in this regard -- very few skaters have managed to do that.

Also, while I hammered Kostner's performance at this worlds, I happen to think she is a skater with great basics and much potential. That LP, however, might be the most awful thing I've seen since Laeticia Hubert's LP in Albertville. Mainly, I am just angry that $peedy's political "fix" seems to be in.

hockeyfan228 · Apr 5, 2004

Ando had a lightness in the quali round that changed to heaviness in the LP, but even so, I thought that the "artistry" was grafted on in both. I had a rather long discussion with Rosaleen about this in Dortmund, and she said she was totally convinced by Ando's Firebird in the quali rounds, while I wasn't. However, in the SP I thought her presentation was wonderful: light and fluid.

I thought that Kostner should have won the SP, based on her technical content and clean landing on the 3/3 and great flow in and out of the 3R, with Sebestyen in second, based on a lesser jump content, with no less quality. As much as I loved Cohen's SP, she flutzed, and this is a technical program.

In my opinion, Kostner and Ando are still SP skaters. Their SP and LP's were like night and day. And I was horribly disappointed in Kostner's LP this year. She took out most of the turns that gave last year's program its complexity, and while she did the same half rink COE spiral that Kwan did, she omitted several change of edge and position spirals that she had last year. Her speed is magnificent, but her flow suffered a bit from DC by being so straight-ahead instead of curving. Ironically Slutskaya gained more flow when she slowed down a bit and took the curves in her LP's, but she also lost her power, and it was clear watching her approaches into jumps that she wasn't going to make them.

Vash01 · Apr 5, 2004

I had watched Ando's SP from the Japanese nationals and I was very impressed. The music from The Pianist is perfect for her SP. I am not sure the Firebird was right for her. It is a powerful music and she has not developed that kind of feeling yet.

She seemed to move well across the ice and had good arm positions. Her spiral needs work. She has not mastered an LP yet, IMO. She seems to think 'element to element'. Still, she looked quite good at the Jr. Worlds which she won. She seems to be working on other aspects too (not just jumps) but she is not quite there, and that is perfectly normal for a 16 year old. She definitely seemed nervous at worlds while skating the LP. She was in a position to actually win in her first attempt. That would make most skaters nervous. Toward the end it seemed to sap her energy but to her credit she stayed on her feet.

I am sure this was a great learning experience for her. I am really interested in seeing how she develops in the next 1 to 2 years.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 5, 2004

Good post, Hockeyfan. Always giving greatinsight that which you and others know.

This is a discussion of the Japanese Ladies and I plan to submit another topic for the Euroepan (non Russian) Ladies as well as The Russian Ladies.

It is just a relaxed musing of those wonderful skaters "out there in the dark" whom we never see that much of on ABC. Some posters do see them and we welcome their insight into what we do not see.

Joe

This is not a prediction thread. It is a critique of what you know and open to other posters' views.

Cheers - Joe

thvudragon · Apr 5, 2004

berthes ghost said:
Look up "inconsistant" in the dictionary and there is a picture of Carolina Kostner.

Carolina has made great strides in her consistancy. At the beginning of the season, she was struggling with all of her jumps, let alone doing 3/3/3 like she is doing now. I hope she can overcome her problems because I admire her drive to actually do a true lutz and flip (unlike the rest of the lazy skaters).

Goooooo Carolina and her 3/3/3s and true lutz and flip!

TV

chuckm · Apr 6, 2004

Some have said that Miki was 'overwhelmed' at Worlds, and that 's why her FS of "Firebird" was so flat. Well, Miki did "Firebird" at JUNIOR Worlds, too, and it was just as flat. She ran out of gas about midway at Junior Worlds, when the program was a lot shorter than it was at Senior Worlds. It couldn't have been that she was overwhelmed at Junior Worlds, since that was her third appearance there, and she was the odds-on favorite to win. Miki looked listless and bored in her Junior Worlds performances. I thought both Katy Taylor's and Kimmie Meissner's presentations far superior to Miki's. They had enthusiasm and energy, and she was so dull in comparison.

Miki does OK in her SPs because after all the SP is a technical exercise and presentation doesn't count as much. But she never really skates to the music. She skates with music in the background and she pays no attention to it. Not a musical skater at all, IMHO.

I have to say I was underwhelmed by Miki Ando in both Junior and Senior Worlds.

The Japanese Ladies

Vash01

Ogre Mage

icenut84

hockeyfan228

Vash01

euterpe

dizzydi

Vash01

euterpe

Jimena

Mathman

berthes ghost

Jimena

Ogre Mage

hockeyfan228

Vash01

Joesitz (RIP)

thvudragon

chuckm

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