Looking back on the careers of Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan
- Thread starter pangtongfan
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
It amuses me how even the biggest Yuna fans in this thread are falling over themselves trying to be politically correct because pangtongfan invoked the name of Michelle Kwan, the English-language skating forum holy-of-holies. Normally many of them feel no such inhibitions about trumpeting her superiority or talking about how inferior all other skaters are to Yuna, the unquestionable greatest skater of all time.
But I feel no such inhibitions! Let's start with their Scheherazades. I can safely say that I enjoyed Yuna's Scheherazade far more than Michelle's though my perception may be colored by the only Michelle Scheherazade I saw being the one where she blew her all-but-guaranteed OGM. Yuna had better spins, equally good if not better footwork, and far better toe jumps. Their edge jumps are about the same in quality if you consider Yuna's vastly superior Axel and Salchow canceling out the nonexistent Loop. And even then her 3Loop was better than Michelle's when she could still land it, so perhaps I could still say that Yuna's edge jumps were also vastly superior. Vastly tougher competition? Michelle's only threats in her career if she went clean were Tara Lipinski (for all of 2 seasons) and Irina Slutskaya (who was hugely inconsistent), along with maybe Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen in the last bit of her career. Yuna had the luck to be facing Mao Asada (who despite having all the talent and all the goods in the world only skated a clean competition about once per transit of Venus; what do we have, 2009 WTT and 2010 Worlds? That fits with the transit of Venus being twice in 8 years with a 100+ year wait) and Carolina Kostner (whose one-time clean competition failed to beat her anyway because of Kostner being physically incapable of repeating 3Flips). I guess if beating a two-fall Yuna with an invalidated combination counts as being competition, you could count Miki Ando, and if you count "losing" to Adelina Sotnikova, you could count her too (though of course I count neither). Again, not a clear advantage for Kwan.
But I feel no such inhibitions! Let's start with their Scheherazades. I can safely say that I enjoyed Yuna's Scheherazade far more than Michelle's though my perception may be colored by the only Michelle Scheherazade I saw being the one where she blew her all-but-guaranteed OGM. Yuna had better spins, equally good if not better footwork, and far better toe jumps. Their edge jumps are about the same in quality if you consider Yuna's vastly superior Axel and Salchow canceling out the nonexistent Loop. And even then her 3Loop was better than Michelle's when she could still land it, so perhaps I could still say that Yuna's edge jumps were also vastly superior. Vastly tougher competition? Michelle's only threats in her career if she went clean were Tara Lipinski (for all of 2 seasons) and Irina Slutskaya (who was hugely inconsistent), along with maybe Shizuka Arakawa or Sasha Cohen in the last bit of her career. Yuna had the luck to be facing Mao Asada (who despite having all the talent and all the goods in the world only skated a clean competition about once per transit of Venus; what do we have, 2009 WTT and 2010 Worlds? That fits with the transit of Venus being twice in 8 years with a 100+ year wait) and Carolina Kostner (whose one-time clean competition failed to beat her anyway because of Kostner being physically incapable of repeating 3Flips). I guess if beating a two-fall Yuna with an invalidated combination counts as being competition, you could count Miki Ando, and if you count "losing" to Adelina Sotnikova, you could count her too (though of course I count neither). Again, not a clear advantage for Kwan.
Yes!! We must remember that Yuna was born in an impoverished, developing country where babies were shipped off by the millions to be adopted abroad!! In Korea after WWII, they were too poor to even eat white rice!! They had to eat unprocessed brown rice!! She learned to skate on frozen ponds because the nation was too poor for skating rinks back then! Then for much of her career, she had to skate in a shopping mall because that was where the only FS rink in Korea was. When Yuna started achieving success, she had to deal with 3/4 of the skating world uniting against her: the sneakily scheming Japanese, the brute-force politicking Russians, and the Americans, still powerful even in the death throes of their skating history. She even had to endure a grassroots campaign against her run entirely on YouTube! It was only by the great Canadian Brian Orser offering her protection that she was able to withstand the onslaught. Hers is truly a rags to riches story, the story of a modern-day Crusader vanquishing the infidels. Yuna singlehandedly caused the Miracle on the Han River, where South Korea went from a tiny oppressed backwater nation to the 11th biggest economy in the world. She personally founded Samsung and LG, and she was responsible for the vast improvement of Hyundai and Kia in the last 10 years. Compare this to Kwan, whose family could always afford any kind of rice, who did not push her nation's economy up in the rankings, and who didn't have to learn to skate on frozen ponds.
Yuna is not like 60 yrs or something. She was born in 1990 and Korea was already developed by then. RICE??? Are you kidding me?
Samsung, LG, Kia??? Yeah, she saved the world. Lol
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2014
Yiiikes, who would have the sense to start this forum? I guess you must be a bit sadistic in seeing everyone fight on this issue seeing that it's almost impossible to resolve -_-
Regardless of their medals, they're both extremely accomplished and the figure skating community adores them. There is always new talent that reigns over a certain generation. Older fans will know of Michelle and will always keep her close to their hearts continually when watching new stars. Someone like me, who saw Michelle when at an early age and seeing Yuna look up to her and skate the way she does, I will keep Yuna close to my own preferences even as I watch the new and upcoming skaters.
The community has constantly recognized both skaters. Michelle in her own right, and literally everyone calling Yuna "Queen." To say that Yuna is not in the same league is not fair because she is in a way different league. She's skated under the slightly older and new system while Michelle skated under the 6 points system. Michelle carried the US into history and Yuna has done something that has never happened in her country ever.
It's fine to discuss their individual careers, but do not undermine what Yuna has accomplished and what it took for her to get there and then comparing her to one of the most well-known skaters of all time.
Regardless of their medals, they're both extremely accomplished and the figure skating community adores them. There is always new talent that reigns over a certain generation. Older fans will know of Michelle and will always keep her close to their hearts continually when watching new stars. Someone like me, who saw Michelle when at an early age and seeing Yuna look up to her and skate the way she does, I will keep Yuna close to my own preferences even as I watch the new and upcoming skaters.
The community has constantly recognized both skaters. Michelle in her own right, and literally everyone calling Yuna "Queen." To say that Yuna is not in the same league is not fair because she is in a way different league. She's skated under the slightly older and new system while Michelle skated under the 6 points system. Michelle carried the US into history and Yuna has done something that has never happened in her country ever.
It's fine to discuss their individual careers, but do not undermine what Yuna has accomplished and what it took for her to get there and then comparing her to one of the most well-known skaters of all time.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
What is the point of this thread other than to troll? 
First you whine at every opportunity that Sotnikova was overscored and Kim deserved the gold, and now you're conceding that because Kim "couldn't even beat" an overscored Sotnikova, that somehow gives her "only" one Olympic gold and puts her out of Kwan's league?
Technically speaking, Kim has landed 3F+3T, 3Z+3T, 2A+3T which Kwan was never capable of doing except for the occasional 3T+3T. Kwan also had a flutz and was prone to URs, whereas Kim has perfect technique and unquestionable rotation. Her spins were actually better than Kwan in that they had more rotations and positions (although for pre-CoP, Kwan's spins were wonderful, and her basic positions - when held - are better than Kim's). Kim's footwork, under CoP, is much more complex than Kwan's, and while it may not have had Kwan's speed on the footwork, it was because of the complexity of turns compared to Kwan's quick relatively simple steps (again, it was pre-CoP so footwork complexity wasn't necessary). Kim didn't possess Kwan's artistry, but there is arguably no female skater who has ever had Kwan's level of artistry. Also, Kim never finished off the podium in her entire senior career.
Kim also raised the profile of skating in her own country where skating wasn't even popular, and much more than Kwan raised the profile of US skating. To be a skater from South Korea and win an Olympic gold medal is a HUGE deal, especially with the pressure and expectations on Kim (as not just the only significant ladies skater but the only significant South Korean skater)... far greater than the pressure that was shared between Kwan and her American teammates.
Don't even attempt to trivialize Kim with your trolling, as you will get absolutely nowhere.
First you whine at every opportunity that Sotnikova was overscored and Kim deserved the gold, and now you're conceding that because Kim "couldn't even beat" an overscored Sotnikova, that somehow gives her "only" one Olympic gold and puts her out of Kwan's league?
Technically speaking, Kim has landed 3F+3T, 3Z+3T, 2A+3T which Kwan was never capable of doing except for the occasional 3T+3T. Kwan also had a flutz and was prone to URs, whereas Kim has perfect technique and unquestionable rotation. Her spins were actually better than Kwan in that they had more rotations and positions (although for pre-CoP, Kwan's spins were wonderful, and her basic positions - when held - are better than Kim's). Kim's footwork, under CoP, is much more complex than Kwan's, and while it may not have had Kwan's speed on the footwork, it was because of the complexity of turns compared to Kwan's quick relatively simple steps (again, it was pre-CoP so footwork complexity wasn't necessary). Kim didn't possess Kwan's artistry, but there is arguably no female skater who has ever had Kwan's level of artistry. Also, Kim never finished off the podium in her entire senior career.
Kim also raised the profile of skating in her own country where skating wasn't even popular, and much more than Kwan raised the profile of US skating. To be a skater from South Korea and win an Olympic gold medal is a HUGE deal, especially with the pressure and expectations on Kim (as not just the only significant ladies skater but the only significant South Korean skater)... far greater than the pressure that was shared between Kwan and her American teammates.
Don't even attempt to trivialize Kim with your trolling, as you will get absolutely nowhere.
um... you realize the poster wasn't entirely serious, right?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thank you.But there must be a fallacy that applies to pangtongfan's main thesis, too, right? As I understand ptf's argument, it goes like this. If the judging at Sochi had been fair, Yuna Kim would be a great skater. As it is, she's no where near as good as Michelle Kwan who was actually outskated in her two Olympic losses.
(Signed) A true Scotsman
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Sounds reasonable to me. It's off season, people have little else to do.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Ito and Lynn are unique as they didnt win alot more titles only due to the scoring system of the time. Of course greater impact on the sport or flat out better skating can overcome a lesser medal count. As Kim has none of those things on Kwan, it is moot.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Asada would still for sure have been doing her 3axels under 6.0. She couldnt even hope to beat Kim in 2010 under either 6.0 or COP without them. Her jumps were weaker quality, especialy around then, she wasnt even doing all the other triples, and the judges preferred Kim's presentation around then too. The one big difference is her 3axels would have been way more rewarded under 6.0 than the often silly IJS. However if she still made 2 mistakes on easier jumps in her LP, it wouldnt matter.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
But there must be a fallacy that applies to pangtongfan's main thesis, too, right? As I understand ptf's argument, it goes like this. If the judging at Sochi had been fair, Yuna Kim would be a great skater. As it is, she's no where near as good as Michelle Kwan who was actually outskated in her two Olympic losses.
(Signed) A true Scotsman
In 1998, Kwan was clean but outjumped by Lipinski. In 2002, Kwan made errors and through bad luck was surpassed by Hughes (who, even with URs, was still the best that night).
And yeah, if the judging had been fair, Kim would have two golds. But if we disregard Kwan and Kim's silvers when they lost to skaters who did well, then you have to consider their other Olympics where Kim skated perfectly to win gold and Kwan faltered to get the bronze. On their second times around, Kim managed to maintain the level of consistency (and she already had a gold to begin with), but Kwan didn't rise to claim the gold that was totally hers to lose, and that's also notable when comparing the two.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Yeah, probably the major distinction for Kwan is that she competed more, won more titles, but also decreased in prowess over time. Kim competed selectively, won less, but maintained her peak abilities more or less from start to finish. The thing about Yuna too of course is that she had the identical two jumping passes for most of her skates: lutz-toe loop, then flip---or flip-toe loop, then lutz. I think because the IJS system awards these technical elements no matter what, there was probably less pressure on her to 'reinvent' herself every season, the way skaters had to under 6.0 system.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Yu Na Kim was about 70% the skater in Sochi she was in Vancouver at best. That she lost to someone of Sotnikova's caliber (controversial judging aside) already speaks to that. The Kim of Vancouver would wipe her *** with a mediocrity like Sotnikova. So saying she mantained her peak level through her career is pure fantasy. Kwan meanwhile only saw her peak level decline through serious injury to her hip. Up until then- 2001, she went from strength to strength, only getting even more unspeakably incredible both technically and artistically. Even after her hip problems her artistry continued to hit new heights until 2004. This is unlike Kim whose health improved over the years, yet her skating still got significantly weaker from age 19 onwards, in part due to her lazy approach to competing which more befits a retired skater.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
- Country
-
Agreed. TBH I'm now kind of annoyed w/ myself for responding to it. If they're not going to close the thread, though, I'm glad at least the title was changed.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
LAZY approach?! Yes, because maintaining the ability to execute a 3Z+3T and skate clean competitions is so lazy of her.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
worthy... - Joined
- Apr 11, 2013
Of course. I don't think he actually believes for one second what he wrote in the first post. He just loves to watch Kwan and Kim fans squirm. This is like a once a month topic on skating forums
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
Mods, it's careers, not carrers.
Similar threads
