Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters | Golden Skate

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

skatefan17

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Feb 9, 2014
After US nats, I was convinced that a rivalry would develop between Julia and Polina Edmunds. Now not so sure, but still have very high hopes for Polina.

On a side note, can anyone explain why Polina was scored so low? That jump she does with the half-loop looks incredibly difficult. It's almost mind boggling how she scored so low at the Olympics, and especially at Worlds. I cannot accept the "she will score higher as she's more well known" commentary. A sport should be based off of merit and ability, not longevity.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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On a side note, can anyone explain why Polina was scored so low? That jump she does with the half-loop looks incredibly difficult. It's almost mind boggling how she scored so low at the Olympics, and especially at Worlds. I cannot accept the "she will score higher as she's more well known" commentary. A sport should be based off of merit and ability, not longevity.

You're going to have to accept it. Everyone goes thru it. Once she fixes her artistry and has an actual presentation her scores will rise but honestly to me....she got as good of scores as she deserved. Top 10 anything for a fifteen year old with practically no international experience is pretty good. Especially with how poorly her transitions score...right around 7:eek:

Sure she has the tech but her artistry is really lacking. As a Yulia fan I can reassure you that artistry can be improved upon over a season or two. Yulia grew so much over the course of this season alone. In sure Polona is capable. Count me as a fan but...she really is a bit rough and borderline clunky ATM. I see a bright future for her though:popcorn:
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
You're going to have to accept it. Everyone goes thru it. Once she fixes her artistry and has an actual presentation her scores will rise but honestly to me....she got as good of scores as she deserved. Top 10 anything for a fifteen year old with practically no international experience is pretty good. Especially with how poorly her transitions score...right around 7:eek:
Is Polina's artistry actually that much worse than Yulia's?
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Is Polina's artistry actually that much worse than Yulia's?

A lot!!! Alright maybe just some but mostly a lot :p. Polina didn't go thru the same Junior process (multiple seasons)that these Russians went thru. It's a huge advantage for the Russians that they ALL competed much more frequently on juniour circuit. They went thru a lot of the polishing there that Polina is going thru at the Olympics and Worlds and likely next GP season. Maybe it's smarter to have Polina get two senior top tens at WOG and WC than risk another 4th or 5th at JWC like what happened to her at JGPF this year.

I remember when Yulia's was that bad...last season even. We're talking a point per PCS here. Polina was rushed in and it's apparent she lacks experience. It will come.
 

skatedreamer

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You're going to have to accept it. Everyone goes thru it. Once she fixes her artistry and has an actual presentation her scores will rise but honestly to me....she got as good of scores as she deserved. Top 10 anything for a fifteen year old with practically no international experience is pretty good. Especially with how poorly her transitions score...right around 7:eek:

Sure she has the tech but her artistry is really lacking. As a Yulia fan I can reassure you that artistry can be improved upon over a season or two. Yulia grew so much over the course of this season alone. In sure Polona is capable. Count me as a fan but...she really is a bit rough and borderline clunky ATM. I see a bright future for her though:popcorn:


With all due respect, I need to disagree re: artistry. To me, Polina has a much stronger connection to her music than Yulia, although clearly Polina has a lot of maturing to do. I've watched Yulia many times hoping to see what you do. Her jumps and spins knock my socks off (especially the spins!) but in terms of presentation she still leaves me cold. Still, that's only my opinion -- not looking to convert you! :biggrin:

I do think you're right about Polina's scores, though.
 

chuckm

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With all due respect, I need to disagree re: artistry. To me, Polina has a much stronger connection to her music than Yulia, although clearly Polina has a lot of maturing to do. I've watched Yulia many times hoping to see what you do. Her jumps and spins knock my socks off (especially the spins!) but in terms of presentation she still leaves me cold. Still, that's only my opinion -- not looking to convert you! :biggrin:

I agree about Yulia's lack of musicality. She has learned to skate to the music by rote, making the appropriate facial expressions and arm gestures. But while her skating is precise, she is almost like a machine, and has in fact made mention that as far as she is concerned, there is no emotion in figure skating. It is all business with her. You can see that at the end of "Schindler" when she makes that sad face at the end and then boom! just like that she steps out of character.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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I agree about Yulia's lack of musicality. She has learned to skate to the music by rote, making the appropriate facial expressions and arm gestures. But while her skating is precise, she is almost like a machine, and has in fact made mention that as far as she is concerned, there is no emotion in figure skating. It is all business with her. You can see that at the end of "Schindler" when she makes that sad face at the end and then boom! just like that she steps out of character.

She is very expressive though. I don't see that in Polina ...YET. That effects the presentation scores a lot does it not.

Btw- Yulia said she sees no point in emotion if the elements aren't there. Not there is no need for emotion in figure skating.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I agree about Yulia's lack of musicality. She has learned to skate to the music by rote, making the appropriate facial expressions and arm gestures. But while her skating is precise, she is almost like a machine, and has in fact made mention that as far as she is concerned, there is no emotion in figure skating. It is all business with her. You can see that at the end of "Schindler" when she makes that sad face at the end and then boom! just like that she steps out of character.

I wouldn't say NO emotion. Figure skaters practice programs, so they have to "turn on" emotions... especially for something like Schindler's List where you obviously don't go through your day to day exhibiting that type of emotion and need to switch it on when you perform. Like any actress, you learn it by rote.... however, Julia has yet to still make it feel natural and genuine. Which is understanding, given her age. As Dick Button says, you have to carry your entrance and exit on and off the ice... if you skate well to an emotional piece like Schindler's List, the "correct" emotion isn't a fist pump, it's a gracious bow and a slight smile. In the K&C, that's when you turn on the smile. I agree that a celebration at the end of an emotional or "sad" performance breaks the spell that the skater has created, even if they're happy they skated clean.

Julia's musicality will come with time. I mean, it was her 2nd season as a senior. Rome wasn't built in a day, so people shouldn't expect it to be.
 

skatedreamer

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I agree about Yulia's lack of musicality. She has learned to skate to the music by rote, making the appropriate facial expressions and arm gestures. But while her skating is precise, she is almost like a machine, and has in fact made mention that as far as she is concerned, there is no emotion in figure skating. It is all business with her. You can see that at the end of "Schindler" when she makes that sad face at the end and then boom! just like that she steps out of character.

Yes, that's it. I remember hearing something about her comment re: emotion but didn't completely understand it and it's also possible that something got lost in translation. There's a "paint-by-numbers" quality about her skating that disconcerts me. It disappoints me, too, because her talent is phenomenal. As she matures, I hope she's able to develop an expressivity that truly comes from her heart. Wishing her well!
 

YLFan

Match Penalty
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Apr 3, 2014
Yulia made this American who really doesn't care that much about ice skating a fan.

Personally I like her style and personality. Shes not phony. She doesn't pander.


About Edmunds. Didn't she just a few months ago lose to three Russian Junior girls. And finished just above Proklova who I would take over Polina in a heartbeat.
 

Manitou

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Jan 17, 2014
I agree about Yulia's lack of musicality. She has learned to skate to the music by rote, making the appropriate facial expressions and arm gestures. But while her skating is precise, she is almost like a machine, and has in fact made mention that as far as she is concerned, there is no emotion in figure skating. It is all business with her. You can see that at the end of "Schindler" when she makes that sad face at the end and then boom! just like that she steps out of character.

Nonsense. Yulia is magical. She doesn't have to pose anything or make any sad faces because she is absolutely natural. She doesn't have to act anything because she IS the character.
And compare this to fake Ave Maria facial annoying grimaces by Carolina. Or "oh I am such a super-diva" by Yuna. They are all actresses. They all play it. Yulia doesn't have to do it. She is what she portrays.
And you are talking about being "robotic". If opposite to "robotic" are forced bogus and over-the-top dramatic poses and faces, then I prefer that "robotic". Sorry!
Plus, she is a kid! And she she is admired for being a kid. For portraying a kid. For not doing anything extra because she just IS a kid. That's why she has fans.
I don't want any 15-yrs old diva with fake acting. She has time for that! Actually, Pogorilaya is like that and I don't like it.
 

izradria

Rinkside
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Feb 13, 2014
Nonsense. Yulia is magical. She doesn't have to pose anything or make any sad faces because she is absolutely natural. She doesn't have to act anything because she IS the character.
And compare this to fake Ave Maria facial annoying grimaces by Carolina. Or "oh I am such a super-diva" by Yuna. They are all actresses. They all play it. Yulia doesn't have to do it. She is what she portrays.
And you are talking about being "robotic". If opposite to "robotic" are forced bogus and over-the-top dramatic poses and faces, then I prefer that "robotic". Sorry!
Not sure if serious or sarcastic. :popcorn: If it's the former, lmao.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
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Feb 13, 2014
Not sure if serious or sarcastic. :popcorn: If it's the former, lmao.
I sense a strong amount of seriousness. :popcorn: I don't think Yuna or Caro act, though. They are classy.

But I do think CrzarMart has a point. Yulia is not fake. At least isn't to me. She is loved because she is childlike, which indeed she is. She is loved partly because she is immature, which is true because she is still a kid. She's natural.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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This all started because I, someone with a Yulia avatar, answered a simple question about why Polina scored so low at Olympics and Worlds. When I pointed out that Polina really lacks in presentation, which it shows on ice and on the protocols, instead of people presenting evidence to the contrary, which I did with Yulia's SP(specifically 2a quality), people instead chose to say Yulia is an emotionless robot. Where specifically is Polina's artistry that the judges and I missed. Where its improved, emotional, etc... And tell me specifically why she doesn't deserve 7.0's and 6.75's on her performance scores? Do we really need to discuss Polina's transitions too. That is all I said. Not that Polina stinks. That her score is affected by her lack of presentation and transition/footwork. Why Yulia is getting dragged in is purely due to my fandom I believe.

I actually think given Polina's lack of experience she did quite well in both. Two top 10 finishes at OG's and WC's is Pretty good. I expect big things out of her in the next three years.

Again...Yulia only said...emotion is useless without the elements. Not that there is no emotion in figure skating like some here said.
 

izradria

Rinkside
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Feb 13, 2014
Well, I lmao at you
:thumbsup:

I don't find Julia natural at all. She "fake acts" just like other skaters, if not worse. Nothing special about her in that aspect. She's 15, so I'll hold out hope she'll become more authentic and less of a cyborg. I don't understand how you say she doesn't have to pose or do any of the gimmicks those other fake, unrealistic skaters do when it's glaring in her programs from this past season.

Anyway, I hope Park So Youn does well next season. Maybe she'll finally win Korean Nationals this time around. I also see Pogorilaya giving Julia and the rest of the russian wonderbabies some serious competition.
 

chuckm

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Sorry, Yulia may be young but she is super shrewd. She knows what sells, and what sells "Schindler" are the fake facial expressions at the beginning and end of the program. That she can slide so easily into and out of them reveals how fake those expressions really are. If you watch her face as she actually skates the program, you see a skater who is ticking off boxes, not a performer who is into the music and spirit of the piece. She relies on those 'takes' at beginning and end for her 'interpretation'. And BTW, she uses those exact same gimmicks for her SP.

That is why I'm not buying what she is selling. To my eyes, she is legitimately talented as a skater, but performance-wise she is robotic, and does not rate the ridiculously high PCS scores she gets.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Sorry, Yulia may be young but she is super shrewd. She knows what sells, and what sells "Schindler" are the fake facial expressions at the beginning and end of the program. That she can slide so easily into and out of them reveals how fake those expressions really are. If you watch her face as she actually skates the program, you see a skater who is ticking off boxes, not a performer who is into the music and spirit of the piece. She relies on those 'takes' at beginning and end for her 'interpretation'. And BTW, she uses those exact same gimmicks for her SP.

That is why I'm not buying what she is selling. To my eyes, she is legitimately talented as a skater, but performance-wise she is robotic, and does not rate the ridiculously high PCS scores she gets.
So explain to me what Polina does that is superior. It's easy to exaggerate how "bad" Yulia is but can you honestly point out Polina's great pcs deserving elements/artistry.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
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Apr 16, 2014
There really is no "correct" answer about whether Yulia is a powerful, genuine performer or if she's just a cruddy robotic actor. She connects to some people; she doesn't to others. I can only hope that she genuinely touched the judges and that's why they're giving her monster scores.

I personally find it strange that everyone's talking about Schindler's List, when her short program actually touched me more. Yes, it "sells" her childlike vulnerability. And I bought whatever she was selling. Poor me. :biggrin:
 
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