Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Does Plushenko's longevity make him a better skater than Yagudin?

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
"
>>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

Sorry, maybe it's because I'm new here, but I'm not getting all the negativity toward Yagudin and the defensiveness I detect from some of those who prefer Plushenko. I mean, "0" innovations for Yagudin? Really? Americans/North Americans were swayed by Tarasova and the media to favor Yagudin? Really? Is it really so difficult to understand that some people may have valid reasons for preferring Yagudin over Plushenko?

Plushenko had many injuries because he worked so hard and because as Plushy said in a new interview the medical background was not available at the time for the highest levels of Russian athletes . A lot of injuries could have been prevented.

Yes 0 innovations, because he didn't do anything at first in Fs history..maybe his memorable footwork in Winter. And if you are a new fs fan you don't know the Yagudin vs Plushenko story. After Yagudin's story in the North-American media Plushenko became the russian communist evil..Plus Yagudin told the media he couldn't win Rus Nat champion title, because the Rus Fed didn't like him. Butif you see the programs the protocols, Plushenko was technically superior compared Yagudin in those competitions. The Rus Nat 1998 was a little bit questionable, both skaters gave the same performances.

You can prefer Yagudin, of course, but the question was who is the better skater and why thus your arguments must be reasonable. Or you can say "I prefer Yagudin, because I like his style".. ;)
 

Panpie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
If Yagudin was such an artist, how do you explain the fact that he wasn't able to produce any memorable programs since he has retired?
John Curry, Kurt Browning, Lambiel, Takahashi are truly artistic skaters. Yagudin was lucky that Tarasova packed him well but his artistry is totally overrated as his professional career proves.
Plushenko does not hunch when he strokes; actually his crossovers are amongst the best ever and his jumps in his prime were superb with great air positions, were high, light and had great landings.
People tend to forget that Plushenko is 31 y.o and his jumps have deteriorated a lot.

Wow. Thanks for proving my point.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
>>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

Sorry, maybe it's because I'm new here, but I'm not getting all the negativity toward Yagudin and the defensiveness I detect from some of those who prefer Plushenko. I mean, "0" innovations for Yagudin? Really? Americans/North Americans were swayed by Tarasova and the media to favor Yagudin? Really? Is it really so difficult to understand that some people may have valid reasons for preferring Yagudin over Plushenko?

I tend to agree to an extent that Yagudin wasn't actually very artistic. All of his "great" programs - Man in the Iron Mask, Gladiator - were effectively the same - big, bombastic, dramatic movie scores about brave heroes. Kind of easy to go with when you're constantly playing the same character, and of course, it was the same character that the Americans loved.

Plushenko's range of character was certainly greater.

I'm trying to remember a quote from Mishin that I saw a long time ago. He spoke openly about the differences in his skaters. Something along the lines of Yagudin being the great technician, but Plushenko being able to play any character.

Panpie, Plushenko fans get annoyed because they have had to put up with him being portrayed as the Evil Communist Russian Villain for so long. Tarasova cleverly set Yagudin up as the outcast, the one who was treated unfairly, in the minds of the Americans, so they adopted him, and it became the old Cold War stuff all over again. You only have to watch the way the NBC treated Plushenko all those years. His fluff pieces were always dark and full of Soviet imagery, his interviews cut up and mangled to make him appear conceited. Only in Sochi did they actually melt and respect him so greatly, and then it was because suddenly the story of the ageing hero coming for one last try became stronger and greater than the Evil Communist Russian.
 

Panpie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I am most certainly not a new figure skating fan, plushyfan. I have been watching figure skating since 1976! I am well aware of the Plushenko/Yagudin rivalry. Your suggestion that I must not know anything about skating or be unaware of how superior that Plushenko is (in your opinion) is bordering on being insulting. I am sorry, but you and some others on here are getting so defensive about Plushenko and going out of your way to put down Yagudin, is a turn off to me, and probably some others who are too nice to say anything. Unfortunately, I'm not in the too-nice-to-say-anything group.

I don't appreciate having my taste and intelligence questioned simply because I don't find Plushenko particularly pleasing to watch. I think most people on here who prefer Yagudin have still given Plushenko his due. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the same from you and some others who prefer Plushenko. As for Plushenko's range of characters, I don't see it. All I ever see with him is Plushenko. He has a great charisma, yes, but I don't find him to be particularly great at interpretation or taking on a range of characters in his skatingf. I can appreciate Russian culture and artistry, although I don't claim to be an expert about it, I can and do appreciate it. I don't find Plushenko to be some outstanding representative of Russian art and culture. Sorry. Furthermore, I'm not someone to be easily swayed one way or another by fluff pieces and such. God gave me a brain, and I do try to use it. I still prefer Yagudin over Plushenko. Sorry.

We get it. You don't like Yagudin. You don't have to go on and on in paragraph after paragraph and post after post about how superior that Plushenko is; how Yagudin is a nasty person and an alcoholic; how Americans were duped by the media to like Yagudin; people who prefer Yagudin just can't see how wonderful Plushenko is; and so forth. If you notice, a lot of people have dropped out of this thread. Don't take that as an indication that your views have won anyone over. I think people are tired of being attacked and reading the same stuff over and over again.
 

Memelah711

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young.

Yagudin's hip problems were not caused by poor technique. After the 2002 Olympic season, he was diagnosed with a congenital hip disorder--which means it is a problem he was born with. Yagudin would have had these problems regardless of what he did. Even with perfect technique, skating is still unforgiving on your hips and knees.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
>>If your technique is close to perfect, you can avoid all those injuries while still being young. <<

Plushenko is injured, too, so I guess his technique was not perfect? People get injuries for all sorts of reasons. Skating is just hard on the hips and knees, period.

One of the greatest Balanchine ballerinas ever, Suzanne Farrell, had both hips replaced near the end of her career. She continued to dance in a limited way (not on pointe) but of course couldn't sustain the kind of career she had achieved before. An article I read said that as time went on, discoveries were made about how dancers could train without putting such strain on their hips, so that degeneration of the joints wouldn't be inevitable. This proves that sound technique doesn't always protect a dancer (and by implication a skater) from injuries. Certainly it helps, which explains why Plushenko retained his jumps for so many years. Yagudin was a special case because he apparently had a structural malformation that predisposed him to hip problems. Another special case was Rudy Galindo, whose HIV resulted in necrosis of the hip joints. Sometimes life just happens.

Brevity or longevity of a career isn't in itself an indication of how wonderful an athlete or artist is. One of the greatest tennis players in terms of achievement was Maureen Connolly, who won everything in sight over about a three-year period and then was injured in an accident while horseback riding and couldn't play anymore. It's not really possible to compare her actual quality (as opposed to enumerating her achievements) to that of someone like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King, both of whom enjoyed long careers.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
to Panpie!

Oh you became so angry!!! because you read bad things about your favorite..Well Plushenko's fans should always read a lot of unjust accusations and malicious presumptions about Plushenko and intentional misinterpretation of his words. I think you understand now, what we feel and think then. What I wrote that is true I can show you some links if you do not believe me.
The thread was started by another poster not me. Of course , I wrote my opinion and I wrote many exact details about Plushenko and his skating because I know them. You didn't bring arguments, just personal opinion. Finally, you have rights to prefer Yagudin of course .. And I think many posters don't come here,because this is so boring for them..we were talking about it many times...

Oh, I just remembered this is not for you.. I like Mishin quotes, and one of my favorites:

“Many skaters are good, but Evgeni has charisma. He radiates a sense of beauty. He radiates something what spectacles need. The majority loves him, the minority jealous.:biggrin:
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
The thread was started by another poster not me. Of course , I wrote my opinion and I wrote many exact details about Plushenko and his skating because I know them. You didn't bring arguments, just personal opinion. Finally, you have right to prefer Yagudin of course .. And I think many posters don't come here,because this is so boring for them..we were talking about it many times...
I can see why you would get bored of such discussions, but I thought it was fair to open another thread where we might discuss how Plushenko has unquestionably surpassed Yagudin (or has he?) after his 4th Olympics. Because the discussion changes (and more people are won over by bionic Plushy's longevity) after every new Olympics that Plushenko competes in. :biggrin:
 

Panpie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Plushyfan, I am well aware of who started the thread. I think the problem is, much of what you are writing is your personal opinion, not fact, despite what you seem to think. Quite a lot of what you and others have posted is insulting, especially the implication that people who prefer Yagudin just don't "get" Plushenko or were unduly influenced to like Yagudin by some campaign of Tarasova in the North American media. I don't care what Tarasova did to try to influence the media or skating fans. I am quite capable of forming my own judgments without regard to such influence, and I don't appreciate the implication otherwise. You really don't have to tear down Yagudin and his fans to build up Plushenko, yet your posts and those of some others have consistently been in that vein. It's almost as if you can't stand that Yagudin has any fans at all. I don't particularly care for Plushenko's skating, but I understand why he has his fans. I am not among them, however, and no matter what you say, I never will be.

As for Mishin, well, of course, he loves Plushenko. Plushenko is his student. Mishin has his opinion, which you agree with, and I have mine. You are probably right about this much: people are probably bored with this topic and very likely tired of reading the same old defenses of Plushenko over and over again. I know I am.

>>Brevity or longevity of a career isn't in itself an indication of how wonderful an athlete or artist is. One of the greatest tennis players in terms of achievement was Maureen Connolly, who won everything in sight over about a three-year period and then was injured in an accident while horseback riding and couldn't play anymore. It's not really possible to compare her actual quality (as opposed to enumerating her achievements) to that of someone like Martina Navratilova or Billie Jean King, both of whom enjoyed long careers.<<

Very well said, Olympia.
 

Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
Ever wonder what Y & P's personal relationship is like? Have they buried the hatchet? I don't speak Russian, but I watched a Russian TV show last year where Yagudin and Slutskaya are the skating hosts...Plushenko was on, Y skated up to him with his microphone and a big smile and they looked like they had a wonderful conversation. Of course, I don't know what was said. Seems like after competitive days are over, Russians are one big happy family. But maybe some Russians on this board can enlighten us.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Plushyfan, I am well aware of who started the thread. I think the problem is, much of what you are writing is your personal opinion, not fact, despite what you seem to think. Quite a lot of what you and others have posted is insulting, especially the implication that people who prefer Yagudin just don't "get" Plushenko or were unduly influenced to like Yagudin by some campaign of Tarasova in the North American media. I don't care what Tarasova did to try to influence the media or skating fans. I am quite capable of forming my own judgments without regard to such influence, and I don't appreciate the implication otherwise. You really don't have to tear down Yagudin and his fans to build up Plushenko, yet your posts and those of some others have consistently been in that vein. It's almost as if you can't stand that Yagudin has any fans at all. I don't particularly care for Plushenko's skating, but I understand why he has his fans. I am not among them, however, and no matter what you say, I never will be.

As for Mishin, well, of course, he loves Plushenko. Plushenko is his student. Mishin has his opinion, which you agree with, and I have mine. You are probably right about this much: people are probably bored with this topic and very likely tired of reading the same old defenses of Plushenko over and over again. I know I am.

You are wrong, Pampie. I really admire Yagudin as a skater. And I always admired and will admire him and most of the Plushenko fans think in a similar way, just we love more Plushenko . My experience Yagudin's fans always attack Plushenko and try to diminish him, everywhere, everytime. This is incomprehensible for me...( my post where I collected there results that isn't my opinion..facts.) but I think we need to finish this argue, because this isn't too nice...
 

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Plushenko was the better athlete. Yagudins generally had better programs and was more reliable under pressure for a span of time. I got the idea that Plush was so consistent in practice that he sometimes didn't even know how to manage the situation when he made major errors.

Both of their basics left a lot to be desired. Back pumping in crossovers, dubious posture especially Yagudin (commentators used to mention that in 98/99 and he never improved there) etc.

I have a hard time calling what they did footwork sequences, but it worked for that era...

I'm pretty sure Yagudins big muscled jumps were a factor in his injuries. Better technique does mitigate injury. It is a major factor in correctly dispersing the energy in those jump landings, which itself is a major factor in overuse injuries for figure skaters.
 

plushyta

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Plushenko was the better athlete. Yagudins generally had better programs and was more reliable under pressure for a span of time. I got the idea that Plush was so consistent in practice that he sometimes didn't even know how to manage the situation when he made major errors.
....

On the contrary! :eek: Plushenko has always been much more reliable and "cold-blooded" - many TV commentators mentioned his "nerves of steel". Because these "nerves of steel", Plushenko's mostly winning Yagudin - especially at the Russian National championship.... That's enough to say that Tarasova hired psychologists (parapsychologists ? :laugh:) in 2001/2002 season for Yagudin's problems with self-confidence and weak nerves.

--------------------------------

Here is additional arguments in the debate about Plushenko's artistry, from someone who certainly knows well what is "art" ;) - translation from his official forum:
http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=268&start=40#p56790

http://www.sport-express.ru/newspaper/2006-02-22/7_1/
ПЛЮЩЕНКО: КРАСИВ И НЕДОСТУПЕН

Maya Plisetskaya, the ex-prima ballerina of Bolshoi, expresses her admiration of Plush after the Torino Olympics (from the interview by E.Shainskiy for sport-express, February 22, 2006).
------------------

PLUSHENKO: HANDSOME AND UNREACHABLE

E.S. - I cannot not ask you about Plushenko.
M.P.- He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see.

E.S.- What do you think about his appearance?
M.P.- I think his appearance is fine. He is tall, striking, with a handsome body and long arms. He is not some cute guy from the postcard, thanks god he is not!, but he has the perfect face for the stage. The ice is the stage too.

E.S.- Who does he remind you among ballet dancers?
M.P.- He looks like Godunov, the Russian ballet dancer. The same type- tall, handsome, self-confident, with long waving in the wind and pirouettes blond hair. In ballet he would be perfect at parts performed by Godunov. He has the temperament and virtuosity for that."
 

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On the contrary! :eek: Plushenko has always been much more reliable and "cold-blooded" - many TV commentators mentioned his "nerves of steel". Because these "nerves of steel", Plushenko's mostly winning Yagudin - especially at the Russian National championship.... That's enough to say that Tarasova hired psychologists (parapsychologists ? :laugh:) in 2001/2002 season for Yagudin's problems with self-confidence and weak nerves.

--------------------------------

Here is additional arguments in the debate about Plushenko's artistry, from someone who certainly knows well what is "art" ;) - translation from his official forum:
http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=268&start=40#p56790

Yeah. He was totally reliable at the 2002 Olympics. And he has had major mistakes in other major competitions back then.

I also said for a a span of time. I didn't say "period."

Direct comparison ceased to be possible moving forwards when Yagudin retired.
 

plushyta

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Yeah. He was totally reliable at the 2002 Olympics. And he has had major mistakes in other major competitions back then.

I also said for a a span of time. I didn't say "period."
...
Which "other major competitions"? Only LP at Worlds 2000 and SP at 2002 Olympics. :sarcasm:

You're talking in general, and I replied that "in general" - Pluhenko was much more reliable.... nothing else :cool:
 

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What about competitions from 98 to 2000?

Again. For a span of time. Yagudin was more reliable. Plushenko was poised to defeat him at an earlier world's (1999 - he was leading after the SP) and choked.

Plushenko didn't really start consistently beating Yagudin until 2001 when the latter started battling injuries. And at major competitions like the ones you mentioned he was still able to overtake Plushenko.
 

plushyta

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
What about competitions from 98 to 2000?

Again. For a span of time. Yadkin was more reliable. Plushenko was poised to defeat him at an earlier world's and choked.

Plushenko didn't really start consistently beating Yagudin until 2001 when the latter started battling injuries. And at major competitions like the ones you mentioned he was still able to overtake Plushenko.
What with this period? Plushenko is the youngest male skater who won medals at the Worlds! Not bad for a 15 year old boy? ;)

Anyway, my points is:
- Plushenko is over 2.5 years younger than Yagudin - he won international competitions, which Yagudin dont won in his age.
- Plushenko also had injuries from 2001

Here is numbers... :cool:
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00000124.htm

World Championships 2001 - 1
World Championships 2000 - 4
World Championships 1999 - 2
World Championships 1998 - 3

European Championships 2001 - 1
European Championships 2000 - 1
European Championships 1999 - 2
European Championships 1998 - 2

ISU Grand Prix Final 2001 - 1
ISU Grand Prix Final 2000 - 1
ISU Grand Prix Final 1999 - 3

Cup of Russia 2001 - 1
Sparkassen Cup on Ice 2001 - 1
NHK Trophy 2000 - 1
Cup of Russia 2000 - 1
Sparkassen Cup on Ice 2000 - 1
NHK Trophy 1999 - 1
Cup of Russia 1999 - 1
Sparkassen Cup on Ice 1999 - 1
NHK-Trophy 1998 - 1
Cup of Russia 1998 - 2
Skate Canada 1998 - 1
Cup of Russia 1997 - 2
Skate America 1997 - 2

Goodwill Games 2001 - 1
Finlandia Trophy 2000 - 1
Goodwill Games 1998 - 3
...

National Championships (Russia)
National Championships 2001 - 1
National Championships 2000 - 1
National Championships 1999 - 1
National Championships 1998 - 3
...
 

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Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.

Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?

That's not the point, and I'm not interested in arguing about something this blazingly obvious.

Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.

And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Age doesn't matter. It's when they Competed against each other.

Age can also affect Yagudin adversely. He was on the scene earlier wearing his body down.

It's not that big a deal. Yagudin was ranking will at 15 or 16 as well. So what?

That's not the point, and I'm not interested in arguing about something this blazingly obvious.

Yagudin won 3 World Championships in a Row and then Won the Olympics and another World Championship. He was also medaling on the World scene as early as the 97 Worlds where he won a Bronze. Aside from that Bronze and the Silver to Plushenko in 01, he won Gold at every other Worlds or Junior Worlds he competed against.

And like I said before, Plushenko's packaging and programs were typically quite bad compared to Yagudin. Yagudin had issues technically and artistically. Neither of them were perfect. Later in his career Plushenko was a huge beneficiary of reputation scoring so I have a hard time really taking the later results seriously (Post-Turino) esp. WRT comparing them to what Yagudin did and against the skaters Yagudin had to skate against when he started medaling, before Plushenko burst on the scene as a seriously World Champion-level contender.

read my #75 post please...
 
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