What went wrong with Mao Asada? | Golden Skate

What went wrong with Mao Asada?

VirMo

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
I was just reminiscing and watching Mao's 2008 world free skate performance, and her jumps are just marvelous. The height, speed and landing (although there might have been slight under-rotations and wrong edges).
People mention so much of Sotnikova's jumps as one of the best currently for her elevation, but I am going to have to say Mao in 2008 would probably have beaten Sotnikova by a great margin.

I am wondering what happened to her jump qualities - I did notice that her physique now has changed somewhat, but I can't really pinpoint on how. Until this time Yuna and Mao seem to have similar body build, but Yuna grew to be more slender. I don't know if this was part of the reason that Mao suffered problems with her jumps later on, but probably there are Mao experts here who know better?
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Answer = Leaving Arutunian

Mao has practically competed without a jump coach in past six years. Tarasova was basically a choreographer and her status as a coach was nominal. Nobuo Sato is a renowned but very few people consider him competent in teaching jumps. It's quite amazing to see how much Asada achieved by training in her own way, she could do better with a reliable technical coach.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think it's a combination on body changes and losing some of the jump technique. She had to substantially change her axel take-off as she grew and hurls herself into the air much more now than in 2008. Trying to fix her lutz was a mistake, as she did all that work and has now completely reverted back to the flawed technique. Working on the lutz probably took away time needed to maintain her 3-3 and the 3S, and without good guidance on the jumps from an appropriate coach her consistency was lost.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Answer = Leaving Arutunian

Mao has practically competed without a jump coach in past six years. Tarasova was basically a choreographer and her status as a coach was nominal. Nobuo Sato is a renowned but very few people consider him competent in teaching jumps. It's quite amazing to see how much Asada achieved by training in her own way, she could do better with a reliable technical coach.

I'm not sure I would agree with your assessment of his competency as a jump teacher. After all he was coaching Ando, when as a junior, she did a quad and she had a difficult 3/3 at that time too. Another student, Nakano also did triple axels, I believe.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
I'm not sure I would agree with your assessment of his competency as a jump teacher. After all he was coaching Ando, when as a junior, she did a quad and she had a difficult 3/3 at that time too. Another student, Nakano also did triple axels, I believe.

Ando and Nakano had their jumps before they joined the Sato family. He hasn't done much help for that.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I think it's a combination on body changes and losing some of the jump technique. She had to substantially change her axel take-off as she grew and hurls herself into the air much more now than in 2008. Trying to fix her lutz was a mistake, as she did all that work and has now completely reverted back to the flawed technique. Working on the lutz probably took away time needed to maintain her 3-3 and the 3S, and without good guidance on the jumps from an appropriate coach her consistency was lost.
She hasn't reverted back to the flawed technique. She's changed to a new technique that is just as flawed. Anyway, you forgot the most important item in the combination, which was not learning the triples properly in the beginning. Junior Mao had a toe-axel, an unreliable Salchow (supposedly ruined by trying to attain a 4S), a flutz, and strange flip technique (which is why she lost the 3-3 and nearly lost the flip altogether as it started going to pot in 2009). Literally the only jumps without problems were loop and Axel.

Ando and Nakano had their jumps before they joined the Sato family. He hasn't done much help for that.
Didn't Asada regain her 3A and her 3F-3Lo under Sato? Sato's not the one who oversaw Mao unlearning her jumps, that was Nagakubo.
 

ComeInPeace

Spectator
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
I also noticed that Mao lost a lot of ice coverage and speed on her jumps post 2008 worlds. Her triple axel at 2007 GPF was huge and gorgeous despite being two-footed.
If I remember correctly, I read that Tarasova often had health problems so Mao had to train herself. I could be wrong, though.

I can't help but think that her 2008-2011 programs did her no favours with the judges either.
 

Tompson

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
I noticed this several yrs ago..She lost her brightness in her eyes and energy in her body she had before.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
She hasn't reverted back to the flawed technique. She's changed to a new technique that is just as flawed. Anyway, you forgot the most important item in the combination, which was not learning the triples properly in the beginning. Junior Mao had a toe-axel, an unreliable Salchow (supposedly ruined by trying to attain a 4S), a flutz, and strange flip technique (which is why she lost the 3-3 and nearly lost the flip altogether as it started going to pot in 2009). Literally the only jumps without problems were loop and Axel.

Didn't Asada regain her 3A and her 3F-3Lo under Sato? Sato's not the one who oversaw Mao unlearning her jumps, that was Nagakubo.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part, I can't count the number of times I have rewatched Mao's performances from the past, and I never noticed any of the issues you mentioned, like a "strange" flip or "unreliable" salcow. Her flip in particular was HUGE, and if anything her jumps usually were beautifully executed without any hesitation, with good height, and ice coverage and with good air position, and fast rotation, I know I have said this before but these qualities will always be something I connect with Mao's jumps, since I am very accustomed seeing these qualities from her. The commentators also never complain about the quality of her jumps or technique for good reason, in fact they usually had nothing but praise, only exception was the edge change on the lutz.

I also think it's plain wrong to call her new technique on the lutz flawed, since her new technique is probably not the problem but rather it's old habits on the lutz. if the technique on the lutz was wrong then even her 2lz would also have received an edge call, but she doesn't receive the "e" when doubling that jump, which makes me think that the edge issue with the 3lz is mainly due to habit.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Mao was developing quite a bit of a hammer toe on her 3F in the past. Under Nobuo Sato, she's corrected that flaw and her 3F has greatly improved as a result.
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I strongly disagree with the bolded part, I can't count the number of times I have rewatched Mao's performances from the past, and I never noticed any of the issues you mentioned, like a "strange" flip or "unreliable" salcow. Her flip in particular was HUGE, and if anything her jumps usually were beautifully executed without any hesitation, with good height, and ice coverage and with good air position, and fast rotation, I know I have said this before but these qualities will always be something I connect with Mao's jumps, since I am very accustomed seeing these qualities from her. The commentators also never complain about the quality of her jumps or technique for good reason, in fact they usually had nothing but praise, only exception was the edge change on the lutz.

I also think it's plain wrong to call her new technique on the lutz flawed, since her new technique is probably not the problem but rather it's old habits on the lutz. if the technique on the lutz was wrong then even her 2lz would also have received an edge call, but she doesn't receive the "e" when doubling that jump, which makes me think that the edge issue with the 3lz is mainly habit.

Her technique on the 3F was terrible in past - toe hammering, leaning the upper boddy to much towards the ice and changing the edge before the take off. In fact it led to the inconsistency on this jump too and her salchow was unreliable indeed. Tarasova planned to brought back the salchow but Mao landed it only once I think at the GPF. Bad technique is tantamount to problems with maintaining the jump and inconsistency at some point which is exactly what happend to Mao. The previous poster with whom you disagree is absolutely right on the bolded part.
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
I recall that when she was working with Mr. Sato during the 2011 season she underwent a very major deconstruction and reconstruction of her jumping technique. It made for a very difficult year for her competitively but seemed to pay off by the 2012 season. It would seem unsurprising that elements of her technique which worked for her when she was pre-normal body changes would need some adapting.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Her technique on the 3F was terrible in past - toe hammering, leaning the upper boddy to much towards the ice and changing the edge before the take off. In fact it led to the inconsistency on this jump too and her salchow was unreliable indeed. Tarasova planned to brought back the salchow but Mao landed it only once I think at the GPF. Bad technique is tantamount to problems with maintaining the jump and inconsistency at some point which is exactly what happend to Mao. The previous poster with whom you disagree is absolutely right on the bolded part.

I think I had the exact discussion with you some time ago, but who cares, I will just repeat myself again, even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared. I also think it's misleading to call 3S unreliable when she rarely included the jump in her layouts, out of all the jumps why fill your layouts with the easier ones when she knew she could include the more difficult ones, and that's exactly what she did. it's called making a wise choice. Also she can't be equally consistent on all jumps all the time, some jumps will always be more consistent then others and that's the case for all skaters.
I also disagree with your bolded part inconsistencies can happen due to nerves, pressure, the skaters body changes, technique is not always the answer. I know many like to think so, because it's the easiest explanation, but figure skating is just much more complicated then that, just look at Mao at the Olympics she landed a dosin 3A in practice right after each other and then look at what happened in the sp's just hours after, are you going to say her technique suddenly deteriorated and then miraculously came back the next day.

I respect your opinion (even through it greatly differs from mine ) in not liking her precious technique on the flip, and in fact clearly hated it since you call it "terrible", but that's your view, according the protocols it was consistent jump during most of her career that earned her good goe. I challenge you to find any commentator or expert who would call it terrible or even bad, because I personally don't remember the commentators complaining about it in fact they usually had nothing but praise, the judges clearly didn't think there was anything wrong with it either since she got positive goe, nor did the Techpanel. But like I said i respect if the previous flip technique wasn't to your liking.
 

desertskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I noticed this several yrs ago..She lost her brightness in her eyes and energy in her body she had before.

Also, aside from all of the technical issues, her mother died several years ago while Mao was away at a competition. This has to really take a lot out of a person.
 

JayW

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Mao is a nature jumper. However, unlike most other jumpers, she is elegant and beautiful. I agree with most of the posters, she didn't develop proper techniques at her early career. When her body changed, those bad techniques took over. Plus, she doesn't have nerves of steel.

I am always wondering, were Tat and Sato really good choices for her? It is so frustrating!
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared.
A "huge and consistent" jump does not necessarily have good technique: the toe-hammering, leaning forward and unstable edge (as Bartek said) are all technique mistakes that she actually worked on with Sato (her flip is really better now), so I have to agree with CarneAsada and Bartek, her flip technique during her early years was not a good one, even if she was able to land it nicely. A "well-landed big jump" does not always imply a "technically well-executed jump" (just think about Sotnikova's lutz for example) :confused2:
But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I will just repeat myself again, even with the toe-hammering her flip was Huge and consistent and shortly after it became inconsistent she changed her technique, so problem solved shortly after it appeared. I also think it's misleading to call 3S unreliable when she rarely included the jump in her layouts, out of all the jumps why fill your layouts with the easier ones when she knew she could include the more difficult ones, and that's exactly what she did. it's called making a wise choice. Also she can't be equally consistent on all jumps all the time, some jumps will always be more consistent then others and that's the case for all skaters.
I also disagree with your bolded part inconsistencies can happen due to nerves, pressure, the skaters body changes, technique is not always the answer.
Would you like me to list the times she attempted the 3S in the Vancouver quad?

Japan Open 2008: doubled
TEB 2008: popped, fall
NHK 2008: landed without issue
GPF 2008: landed without issue
Japanese Nationals 2008: popped
Japan Open 2009: popped

I've heard various reasons for why she didn't include it ranging from it being her least favorite triple to not being worth enough points. Anyway, I never mentioned her 3Sal having bad technique. It was just not a favorite jump of Mao's, and it was inconsistent. As for her old flip, I wouldn't necessarily call it terrible technique, but it is unorthodox. The fact is she started having trouble on it in 2009 and she felt the need to fix it after Vancouver.

but that's your view, according the protocols it was consistent jump during most of her career that earned her good goe. I challenge you to find any commentator or expert who would call it terrible or even bad, because I personally don't remember the commentators complaining about it in fact they usually had nothing but praise, the judges clearly didn't think there was anything wrong with it either since she got positive goe, nor did the Techpanel. But like I said i respect if the previous flip technique wasn't to your liking.
Her GOEs in the 2009-10 season were very stingy; GOE was less generous overall in that quad, but she was often losing a full point to her main competitors in GOE on the flip alone. Commentators rarely call anything terrible or bad, they just care if it avoids an outright deduction.

But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!
Agreed. Her flutz was most likely a lost cause, but she still landed it every time she attempted it this season (compare to doubling 4/6 attempts in 2008-09). Aside from that, most of the other jumps are much improved.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
A "huge and consistent" jump does not necessarily have good technique: the toe-hammering, leaning forward and unstable edge (as Bartek said) are all technique mistakes that she actually worked on with Sato (her flip is really better now), so I have to agree with CarneAsada and Bartek, her flip technique during her early years was not a good one, even if she was able to land it nicely. A "well-landed big jump" does not always imply a "technically well-executed jump" (just think about Sotnikova's lutz for example) :confused2:
But I don't think that her technique now is "as much flawed" as the previous one: her jumps now are much better than in the late 2008-early 2011 period!

In the end I think it all comes down to how much the hammer toe bothers each person, it personally didn't bother me at all, and it made her previous flip and style easily distinguishable, from the rest. I personally don't think there is only one way to do a jump right, I have watched many skaters do the same jumps with different techniques, and I enjoyed these skaters jumps equally because they were still beautifully done. Even if the current flip technique is better then the previous, I can honestly say that i enjoyed watching the previous flip atleast just as much as the current one.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Would you like me to list the times she attempted the 3S in the Vancouver quad?

Japan Open 2008: doubled
TEB 2008: popped, fall
NHK 2008: landed without issue
GPF 2008: landed without issue
Japanese Nationals 2008: popped
Japan Open 2009: popped

I've heard various reasons for why she didn't include it ranging from it being her least favorite triple to not being worth enough points. Anyway, I never mentioned her 3Sal having bad technique. It was just not a favorite jump of Mao's, and it was inconsistent. As for her old flip, I wouldn't necessarily call it terrible technique, but it is unorthodox. The fact is she started having trouble on it in 2009 and she felt the need to fix it after Vancouver.


Her GOEs in the 2009-10 season were very stingy; GOE was less generous overall in that quad, but she was often losing a full point to her main competitors in GOE on the flip alone. Commentators rarely call anything terrible or bad, they just care if it avoids an outright deduction.


Agreed. Her flutz was most likely a lost cause, but she still landed it every time she attempted it this season (compare to doubling 4/6 attempts in 2008-09). Aside from that, most of the other jumps are much improved.

This list just shows how seldom she included the salcow, from that it's hard to draw any definite conclusion. fact is when when she decided to include it, she only did it once in her lp, which likely meant she also didn't practice the jump as much as the other jumps she did repeat and the jumps that were generally more difficult and therefor more time consuming. I agree that the judges were very stingy compared to now, but she still got positive goe for her flip, which shows that even at the time when they were very stingy with goe they still thought of it as an overall good executed jump. as did the commentators.

Even if the commentators never said a jump is literally bad, they usually mentioned if it had an obvious flaw or distraction, can't count the number of times they did that to skater with legwraps, and bad air positions etc.
 

Components

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
I strongly disagree with the bolded part, I can't count the number of times I have rewatched Mao's performances from the past, and I never noticed any of the issues you mentioned, like a "strange" flip or "unreliable" salcow. Her flip in particular was HUGE, and if anything her jumps usually were beautifully executed without any hesitation, with good height, and ice coverage and with good air position, and fast rotation, I know I have said this before but these qualities will always be something I connect with Mao's jumps, since I am very accustomed seeing these qualities from her. The commentators also never complain about the quality of her jumps or technique for good reason, in fact they usually had nothing but praise, only exception was the edge change on the lutz.

I also think it's plain wrong to call her new technique on the lutz flawed, since her new technique is probably not the problem but rather it's old habits on the lutz. if the technique on the lutz was wrong then even her 2lz would also have received an edge call, but she doesn't receive the "e" when doubling that jump, which makes me think that the edge issue with the 3lz is mainly due to habit.

Her new Lutz Technique is flawed. From a technical standpoint, it's basically set up to Flutz with the distant hope that she will get off the ice before the judges notice. Ashley Wagner uses a similar technique on her Lutz. Nothing about her Lutz entrance is correct.

Her flip take-off edge fishes like Sasha Cohen's.

And while her rotations are tight, beautiful, and correct... She has a delay in her jumps that causes a lot of UR issues, even on doubles at the end of her combinations. She really has to snap into her tight rotations quicker if she wants to eliminate that. There's a reason why Lipnitskaya basically never URs a jump (unless she's falling or stepping out of them, I'm talking jumps that "appear" clean) and Asada does. Lipnitskaya wastes no time getting into her rotations. By the time Mao is getting into the air position you're talking about, Lipnitskaya already has like 2 rotations done. This is what enables her to do triples with like a third of the height of an Irina Slutskaya or Yuna Kim jump.
 
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