Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Zijun Li vs. Kaetlyn Osmond: The Unsung Rivalry

CanadianSkaterGuy

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CSG now even attempting to downtalk Julia's consistency or compare Osmond at all to Julia in the consistency area. :laugh: Always some new bit of comedy each day from CSG (to go along with Duhamel & Radford winning silver at the 2018 Games, amazing how much free comedy this poster delivers for all per day).

Says the one who says Savchenko/Massot have the potential to be a strong contender for gold, when we haven't even seen them skate yet. :laugh: You're as hilarious as sky_fly suggesting Bazarova/Deputat will challenge V/T and surpass S/K, when they haven't even skated yet.

And I wasn't downtalking Julia's consistency - I said she's the most consistent skater this season, and that she's more consistent than Osmond... however, I also challenged the notion that "Julia delivered all season", as chuckm fallaciously suggested. She lost Russian Nationals, and she fell in both segments of the individual event at the Olympics.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I'm sorry, but ...

Chan v. Yuzu 12-14 was a rivalry

Sorry but it's more like the second half of 13-14 was a rivalry. Prior to this season, Chan was 4-1 against Hanyu. Their head to head record is now 6-3 in favour of Chan. This season was a rivalry, and only a "rivalry" at the GPF onwards, seeing as how Chan easily defeated Hanyu in both GP events (by 28 and 32 points).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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YOU were the one doing the lumping, and you lumped Wagner (who did skate clean most of the early season and again at Worlds) in with the inconsistent skaters. What was with that?

And YOU were the one comparing Lipnitskaia and Hanyu's PCS with Osmond's, saying that they were getting high PCS scores when they weren't skating clean. I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about "poor" 6-triple free skates when a skater who has only 6 planned triples can't even deliver 5.

Yes, we KNOW Osmond was coming off injury this season. But what about last season? No clean free skates then when she wasn't injured. 5 triples at Nebelhorn and SC 2012, but only 3 at 4CC, and 4 at Worlds 2013 and 4 at WTT 2013. Judges usually expect to see performances improve as the season goes on, not fall off and get worse as they did in 2012-2013. Why would judges be ready to reward her with high PCS scores this season based on what she did last season?


She did however deliver clean skates at Skate Canada, Euros, and the Sochi team event, and was thus the most consistent skater this season. But it's inaccurate to say she delivered all season. And of course she's way more consistent than Osmond/Gold/Wagner/Li/Murakami.

Go back to my OP before you keep spewing your drivel. I was pointing out that Osmond/Gold/Wagner/Li/Murakami are all inconsistent compared to her. If you're SO offended that Li is included in that as well as Murakami, both of them achieved poor results due to inconsistency -- Murakami's only good skate was at 4CC, and she was as bad as Osmond at Worlds/Olympics. Li was worse than Osmond at both Worlds/Olympics - but somehow a bronze at 4CC holding off Chartrand/Hicks/Imai makes up for it according to you. Wagner, even with her GP successes, never delivered a clean competition all season, although she did have some success with clean SPs including the 3-3 earlier in the year.

And if you're going after Osmond for having no clean free skates, newsflash: most of the skaters - even in the top 10 - don't have clean freeskates/competitions.

The PCS point was also in reference to the fact that falls don't necessarily translate into ones PCS stagnating, as we saw with Julia at CoR and Sochi Individual, and Hanyu at many competitions where he fell and still saw gradual PCS increases. Osmond's issue holding back her PCS, other than jump consistency, is her overall skating and her lack of actually competing (which generally sees a rise in a skater's PCS over time). To lambaste her for having falls in her debut season on the GP (where she still won a GP event), or criticize her for falls in competitions this past season when she was dealing with injuries, is pretty pathetic... especially when it's not like her other competitors are clean whistles themselves or immune to falls (Gold, Lipnitskaia) or a protocol sheet filled with UR calls (Li, Wagner, Murakami). No skater is supremely consistent (other than maybe Kim). Stop making it seem like Osmond is the only inconsistent one when rarely anyone other than Julia (and maybe Radionova) in the women's field skates clean more often than they make errors.
 

chuckm

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Maybe Gold and Wagner make errors, but they usually deliver more than 4 triples in their freeskates. Gold usually delivers 6, and Wagner, at least 5. Skaters have to deliver technical content to make judges sit up and take notice.

Yes, Osmond started off well in the 2012-2013 season, but capping the season off in the late-season major competitions with 3 and 4 triples, as Osmond did when she was not injured, do not help a skater build a strong reputation and with it, good PCS scores.

Gold has not had good GPs, and neither has Sotnikova, but that hasn't hurt them because they have skated better in the later, more important events. Osmond's coach has admitted that Kaetlyn has to learn not to peak too soon. It's not good strategy to leave one's best competition on nationals ice.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Maybe Gold and Wagner make errors, but they usually deliver more than 4 triples in their freeskates. Gold usually delivers 6, and Wagner, at least 5. Skaters have to deliver technical content to make judges sit up and take notice.

Gold:
SC: 4 clean triples
NHK: 3 clean triples
US Figure Skating Classic 2013: 3 clean triples
Worlds: Yes, she landed 6 triples but the axel errors and 3T omission meant a TES score 11 points worse than the Olympics where she also landed 6 triples - you need to look at all elements... if a skater lands 7 triples and falls on every spin or messed up both 2As, that makes it worse than a 5 triple performance where everything was rotated, but 2 triples had -1/-2 landings. Her 6 triple skate still ended up being worth considerably less TES than Wagner's 5 triples and Asada's 5 triples (or Julia's 5 triples in Sochi).

Wagner:
SA: 4 clean triples
GPF: 4 clean triples

As for Gracie not being hurt because she's skated better in the later more important events, the only time Gracie had a good FS last season was in her team FS at the Olympics (going by what you said, nationals scoring shouldn't affect international scores, and up until that point, Gold had only done 4 triples max so far internationally). She skated cleanly doing 7 triples in the team FS getting a PCS of 61.89 which was even less than her Skate Canada PCS of 62.11 where she only did 4 clean triples. Then in her individual FS a week later, she gets 68.33 PCS for the same freeskate but with 6 triples and a fall. How do you even begin to explain that? :unsure:
 

Mrs. P

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I'll leave these numbers here. Enjoy!


****
TES in the FS during the 2013-2014 season.


Julia
SC: 70.46
Rostelecom: 55.92
GPF: 64.93
Euros: 71.75
Olympics Team: 71.69
Olympics: 66.28
Worlds: 65.57

Average: 66.66
Average (w/o Olympics): 65.73

Mao:
SA: 62.83
NHK: 66.10
GPF: 63.87
Olympics: 73.03
Worlds: 65.27

Average: 66.22
Average (w/o Olympics): 63.77


Anna
Cup of China: 62.15
TEB: 65.17
GPF: 60.01
Worlds: 67.19

Average: 63.63

Polina
JGP Mexico: 61.82
JGP Minsk: 62.37
JGPF: 62.95
Olympics: 63.02
Worlds: 66.39

Average: 63.31
Average (w/o Olympics): 63.38

Ashley:
SA: 58.54
TEB: 61.81
GPF: 56.06
Olympics Individual: 61.07
Worlds: 63.64

Average: 60.22
Average w/o Olympics: 60.01

Adelina:

COC: 50.36
TEB: 65.15
GPF: 46.45
Euros: 62.03
Olympics: 75.54

Average: 59.91
Average (w/o Olympics): 56.00

Gracie
U.S. International Classic: 49.05
Skate Canada: 56.09
NHK: 55.58
Olympics Team: 67.49
Olympics individual: 69.57
Worlds: 58.58

Average: 59.39
Average (without Olympics): 54.83

Carolina:
COC: 46.34
Rostelecom: 53.80
Euros: 52.40
Olympics: 68.84
Worlds: 53.81

Average: 55.03
Average (w/o Olympics): 51.59


Kanako:
COC: 50.36
Rostelcom: 58.26
4CC: 69.25
Olympics: 56.96
Worlds: 51.69

Average: 57.30
Average (w/o Olympics): 57.39
Average (w/o 4cc): 54.32

Kaetlyn:
Olympics Team: 54.53
Olympics Individual: 55.97
Worlds: 50.51

Average: 53.67
Average (w/o Olympics): 50.51


Zijun:
COC: 37.71
4CC: 61.46
Olympics: 55.79
Worlds: 46.63

Average: 50.40
Average (w/o Olympics): 48.6
Average (w/o 4CC): 46.71
 
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chuckm

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Gold:
SC: 4 clean triples
NHK: 3 clean triples
US Figure Skating Classic 2013: 3 clean triples
Worlds: Yes, she landed 6 triples but the axel errors and 3T omission meant a TES score 11 points worse than the Olympics where she also landed 6 triples - you need to look at all elements... if a skater lands 7 triples and falls on every spin or messed up both 2As, that makes it worse than a 5 triple performance where everything was rotated, but 2 triples had -1/-2 landings. Her 6 triple skate still ended up being worth considerably less TES than Wagner's 5 triples and Asada's 5 triples (or Julia's 5 triples in Sochi).

Wagner:
SA: 4 clean triples
GPF: 4 clean triples

As for Gracie not being hurt because she's skated better in the later more important events, the only time Gracie had a good FS last season was in her team FS at the Olympics (going by what you said, nationals scoring shouldn't affect international scores, and up until that point, Gold had only done 4 triples max so far internationally). She skated cleanly doing 7 triples in the team FS getting a PCS of 61.89 which was even less than her Skate Canada PCS of 62.11 where she only did 4 clean triples. Then in her individual FS a week later, she gets 68.33 PCS for the same freeskate but with 6 triples and a fall. How do you even begin to explain that? :unsure:

Of course you left out Gracie's Olympic singles freeskate where she landed 6 triples and had the fourth highest TES. And you didn't consider the 2012-2013 season where Gracie landed 7 triples in the 2013 Worlds FS and 6 triples in the WTT 2013 FS. In the JW 2012 FS, Gracie landed 6 triples in her silver medal performance.

So in ALL FIVE of her end-of-season freeskates over the last 3 years, she has landed at least 6 triples in every single one. You can nitpick her performances all you like, but there is a technical consistency there that cannot be denied, and is one of the reasons why the ISU judges like Gracie and give her good PCS scores.
 

Mrs. P

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Of course you left out Gracie's Olympic singles freeskate where she landed 6 triples and had the fourth highest TES. And you didn't consider the 2012-2013 season where Gracie landed 7 triples in the 2013 Worlds FS and 6 triples in the WTT 2013 FS. In the JW 2012 FS, Gracie landed 6 triples in her silver medal performance.

So in ALL FIVE of her end-of-season freeskates over the last 3 years, she has landed at least 6 triples in every single one. You can nitpick her performances all you like, but there is a technical consistency there that cannot be denied, and is one of the reasons why the ISU judges like Gracie and give her good PCS scores.

That's not technical consistency, though. What it does show, however, that when she hits, she hits very high and she seems to to hit at one or two key events. But as her overall TES average in the FS shows she was not consistent on earning those high technical scores throughout the season.

Yes, you can argue about peaking too early/too late and what not, but that doesn't mean that we should see huge swings in the TES.

So here's hoping that now she's with Frank, she can score those high-60s scores more often next season.
 
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chuckm

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I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.
 

Mrs. P

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I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.

As far as I know 2014 Worlds was an ISU championship and she lost a lot of points in the FS that ultimately cost her a medal. Yes you can blame post-Olympics blah, but the fact is that a medal was within her grasp and she made too many little mistakes to get it. For someone her technical caliber, it's a bit of a letdown that she did not medal with Adelina and Yuna not being there.
 
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chuckm

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Despite her mistakes on the axels, Gracie did land 6 triples at 2014 Worlds. Julia and especially Carolina (who landed only 3 triples) made their share of mistakes, too. It's not surprising considering how busy the season was for them, with Worlds being an anticlimax after Sochi. The only skater to have two clean skates was Pogo, and she did not skate at Sochi or Euros.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I didn't say she was consistent THROUGHOUT THE SEASON, I said she was consistent at the season's end CHAMPIONSHIP competitions which, after all, are the ones that count the most.

I would not classify her Worlds FS as consistent. She messed up the easiest jumps, and omitted an entire triple, and was tight on many jumps. It was only her inflated PCS that prevent her from losing to Suzuki and Wagner. One thing she was consistent on throughout the season, however, was her SP. Like Osmond, she's delivered clean SPs... but the FS is her nemesis where she's fallen at least once (save for the team FS in Sochi). Falling in the Olympic FS and falling and popping jumps in her Worlds FS doesn't constitute consistent... you can crow all you want that at least it was better than Osmond (who was coming off injury) but the reality is, she failed to get a World bronze that was in her grasp, and has yet to deliver a competition, or skate well enough in any international competition to win. Hopefully that should change next season though.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Despite her mistakes on the axels, Gracie did land 6 triples at 2014 Worlds. Julia and especially Carolina (who landed only 3 triples) made their share of mistakes, too. It's not surprising considering how busy the season was for them, with Worlds being an anticlimax after Sochi. The only skater to have two clean skates was Pogo, and she did not skate at Sochi or Euros.

Uh... that's not something attributed to just this year. At Worlds 2013 the only clean skaters were Kim... and Popova). Worlds 2012 nobody had two clean skates. Same with Worlds 2011.

Like I said, expecting clean skates from these skaters (especially ones coming off injury like Osmond) is irrational. The difficulty they are attempting under CoP makes clean skates rare (and thus more impressive when they are actually achieved). Sure it's been a busy season. But when 2 favourites aren't appearing at Worlds and you've got a perfect opportunity to get a World medal and you fail to do so, don't blame burnout. And it's not like Gold decided to compete at Four Continents or qualified to compete at the Grand Prix Final.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Why are you continuing to overanalyze this like crazy. You arent making any point. The overall point that was made is that Osmond is far less consistent than the likes of Julia and Wagner, and last season was less consistent than Gold, especialy late season when Gold really picked up; and that is a factor in her lower PCS, along with the legitimate ones related to her skating. That on their worst days they still stand up about 6 triples, with atleast 4 clean, which is what Osmond does on her very best days of late internationally does not in anyway make a counterargument against that point.

It's ultimately pointless to bash Osmond about her "days of late" i.e. last season when the only 2 times she competed internationally were the two biggest events, and coming off of injury. We have to see what she's made of this upcoming season - if she competes an injury-free season with 2-fall freeskates, then sure, you might have a point about her inconsistency. I've also agreed that she's not as consistent as Julia/Wagner/Gold and am not debating that even though you seem keen to make people think I am. However, I've also said Osmond/Li/Murakami/Gold/Wagner were not as consistent as Julia (who herself didn't deliver all season, as chuckm suggested) - which chuckm seemed to have taken great offense with. :laugh: Unless chuckm thinks any of those skaters are more consistent than Julia, or thinks they aren't prone to the falls and URs that Osmond has (especially when Julia/Murakami/Li/Gold have alll had FS with 3 or less triples - i.e. not "atleast 4 clean" as you said - this season). All the skaters you mentioned try 7 triples anyways, so already they will, on paper, have a 1 triple advantage on Osmond. So if Osmond mars two triples and they mar two triples they'll still have the higher triple count. If Kim messed up a triple (so, 5 triples) and Gold repeated her Worlds FS with 6 triples, can you honestly say Gold's was the superior technical one based on triple count? How about the Olympics when Sotnikova landed 7 ratified triples and Kim landed 6? :biggrin:

Even an amazing skater like Hanyu had 2 falls in his Olympic FS, had a fall and a popped quad in his TEB FS, and had a fall and popped axel in his Skate Canada FS, so he's prone to at least 2 major errors himself - and this is the men's GPF/Olympic/World champion.

I wonder what chuckm's opinion of Li is and if it's the same as that of Osmond... oh, wait, she won a bronze at 4CC against Hicks/Imai/Chartrand, and had a clean FS at Worlds 2013, so she's absolved of any debate as to whether she deserves to be labeled as inconsistent as Osmond (who beat hear at Worlds/Sochi), right? :sarcasm:
 

chuckm

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Gold has never skated well in the early season and she didn't skate well in the early season this year either, but Frank Carroll took over her training midway during the GP and she rapidly improved after that.

However, she HAS performed consistently well --- as far as completing her triples is concerned --- in the championship events at season's end over the past three seasons. She did NOT compete at 2012 Worlds, but at 2012 JUNIOR Worlds where she landed 6 triples and won silver. She landed 7 triples at 2013 Worlds and 6 at 2013 WTT, 7 at the Sochi team event, 6 at the Sochi singles event, and 6 at 2014 Worlds.

As for Li, she has not only gone through a pretty big growth spurt, but she has also been recovering from injury. She went to one GP event where she performed poorly, and then was withdrawn from her second event. IMO, it was a mistake to send her to 4CC before Sochi and Worlds. She skated quite well at 4CC, landing a clean 3f+3t in the SP and 6 triples in the FS. If she had skipped 4CC and done that at Sochi, she would probably have placed much higher.

If Osmond is going to be 'cut a break' due to injury, then Li deserves to be given the same consideration. I do have to add that Li has at least demonstrated that she can deliver 6- and 7-triple performances with no falls (at 2014 4CC and 2013 Worlds) while Osmond's have topped out at 5, with one fall.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Dear Mrs. P,

Thank you for the TES comparison. That is a fantastic reference! :bow: :clap:

Adelina GPF(!) :slink:

Polina..:clap: now she just needs a program that draws people in. I'm rooting for this one :clap:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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If Osmond is going to be 'cut a break' due to injury, then Li deserves to be given the same consideration. I do have to add that Li has at least demonstrated that she can deliver 6- and 7-triple performances with no falls (at 2014 4CC and 2013 Worlds) while Osmond's have topped out at 5, with one fall.

Of course I cut a break to Li. Like Osmond, I don't think we've seen a complete season from her and we shouldn't judge her or label her based on incomplete seasons with injury.

Li might have had two performances where she delivered more triples than Osmond ever has (I mean, she attempts 7 triples to begin with, so already the likelihood is that she will out-triple Osmond). But figure skating is much more than counting triples and you have to look at other elements that were performed. Plenty of skaters do 7 triple performances, but Kim is still superior to them with her 6 triple performances (and nobody is criticizing Kim for having performances that "top out at 6 triples").

Say a skater delivered the following: 3S+3T+2T(fall), 3Z, 3F+2T(fall), 3L+2A(fall), 3T, 3S, 2A(fall) they still would have "landed 7 clean triples", even if they fell 4 times.
 

anyanka

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^I agree with the point you're making, but:


I think they were only rivals for the past season (though they qualify as a rivalry far more than Li vs. Osmond :laugh:). Before that, Chan vs. Takahashi was the rivalry.

Point well taken (also agreed with CanadianSkaterGuy on this).
 

chuckm

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Say a skater delivered the following: 3S+3T+2T(fall), 3Z, 3F+2T(fall), 3L+2A(fall), 3T, 3S, 2A(fall) they still would have "landed 7 clean triples", even if they fell 4 times.

But Gracie fell only once at Worlds, at the end of the free skate where she landed 6 triples; of the 6, 5 were clean, excepting only the lip. Not at all the same as your example shown above.

OTOH, of Kaetlyn's 4 triples at 2014 Worlds, only one---the opening 3f---was clean: she hopped on the landing of the 2a+3t, the lutz was a flutz, she fell on the salchow, she turned out of the second flip, she doubled the 3t in the 3-jump combo, and turned out of the 2a. Of the 11 jumps in her FS, only 5 were clean.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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But Gracie fell only once at Worlds, at the end of the free skate where she landed 6 triples; of the 6, 5 were clean, excepting only the lip. Not at all the same as your example shown above.

OTOH, of Kaetlyn's 4 triples at 2014 Worlds, only one---the opening 3f---was clean: she hopped on the landing of the 2a+3t, the lutz was a flutz, she fell on the salchow, she turned out of the second flip, she doubled the 3t in the 3-jump combo, and turned out of the 2a. Of the 11 jumps in her FS, only 5 were clean.

My point was that if you single and downgrade double axels and leave out an entire triple, that is still significant. Yes, she fell only once, but she had a shaky loop (with -GOE), and both axels were singled (a << being a 'single'). So, if you're counting up the triples

Again, Osmond was coming off of injury, and wasn't in optimal form. It's amazing that she was able to actually hit a 3F+3T for the first time ever in the SP, bearing this in mind. Comparing her Worlds FS to somebody who's more consistent like Gold or Lipnitskaia is besides the point. It would be like criticizing Li for landing 2 triples to Gold or Lipnitskaia. I have no idea why this subject of comparing Osmond to Gold/Lipnitskaia came up in the first place when the point of this thread is comparing Li to Osmond. All I said earlier is that Lipnitskaia did not deliver all season, but she is more consistent than Li/Murakami/Osmond/Gold/Wagner.

You said yourself the big competitions are where it counts, so does this mean you agree that Osmond is superior to Li, having beaten her at Worlds and Olympics?
 
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