55th ISU Congress: Who voted "For" and "Against" anonymous judging | Page 5 | Golden Skate

55th ISU Congress: Who voted "For" and "Against" anonymous judging

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Without imposing personal assumption of individual fed's agenda and looking at the over all pattern of voting, one may deduce or guess at the motives more objectively.

Why did feds with strong skaters and medal contenders vote for the abolition of anonymous judging? It may be because they want more open, fairer, and less controversial judging which would be good for the sport or at least appeasing the fans, or they may want to appear to do so.

Why did feds with few skaters and/or little chance of medaling in international competitions vote against abolishing anonymous judging? Well, judging is where they are at equal status with the "powerful" feds so that's where they hold their political cards. So what are they playing for? Anonymous judging gives them deal making opportunities with their powerful counterparts who can then politick covertly while overtly oppose anonymous judging.

The voting on the abolition itself might just have been such a deal.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Is there anyone who knows how many from the countries who voted yes and those who voted no have a separate federation for FS?

Here is a tweet from someone who is at the Congress. (Click on the pictures, then use right and left arrows to see the complete lists.) If it says "Figure" after the country, this is the figure skating federation separately. The others have a combined figure and speed skating federation.

https://twitter.com/_david_molina/status/477130320022876161
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Here is a tweet from someone who is at the Congress. (Click on the pictures, then use right and left arrows to see the complete lists.) If it says "Figure" after the country, this is the figure skating federation separately. The others have a combined figure and speed skating federation.

https://twitter.com/_david_molina/status/477130320022876161

Thank you Math.
So, 11 countries ho voted no have FS fed and 14 who voted yes.


p.s. If I'm not mistaken, countries who have a combined Fed had two votes actually right?
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Without imposing personal assumption of individual fed's agenda and looking at the over all pattern of voting, one may deduce or guess at the motives more objectively.

Why did feds with strong skaters and medal contenders vote for the abolition of anonymous judging? It may be because they want more open, fairer, and less controversial judging which would be good for the sport or at least appeasing the fans, or they may want to appear to do so.

Why did feds with few skaters and/or little chance of medaling in international competitions vote against abolishing anonymous judging? Well, judging is where they are at equal status with the "powerful" feds so that's where they hold their political cards. So what are they playing for? Anonymous judging gives them deal making opportunities with their powerful counterparts who can then politick covertly while overtly oppose anonymous judging.

The voting on the abolition itself might just have been such a deal.

I'm afraid it's not just that. Feds that have top skaters can afford to get them overscored openly. It wouldn't look like a huge violation of sport; rather like a matter of taste. Overscoring a medium or weak skater would look like a massive blunder or incompetence though. That should better remain anonimous ;)
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I'm afraid it's not just that. Feds that have top skaters can afford to get them overscored openly. It wouldn't look like a huge violation of sport; rather like a matter of taste. Overscoring a medium or weak skater would look like a massive blunder or incompetence though. That should better remain anonimous ;)

Does skating for a stronger federation with a much deeper field not sort of politic itself though? Getting fourth at Russian/Us/Japan Nationals will kind of sell itself to the judges vs second place and maybe even first in smaller Feds. Until we have robot judges and boot sensors....ugh...human nature will always show face. Judges have expectations and will always carry preconcieved notions of skaters if even to the smallest degree. This can actually work against a skater too. A bit of a double edged sword.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I'm afraid it's not just that. Feds that have top skaters can afford to get them overscored openly. It wouldn't look like a huge violation of sport; rather like a matter of taste. Overscoring a medium or weak skater would look like a massive blunder or incompetence though. That should better remain anonimous ;)

I agree with you on this, but SkateFiguring does have a good point as well.
Italians for example have always used their scores in favor of big countries. The alliance was always based also on how many competitive skaters Italy had and where.
For example: Italy often was in favor of Russia in Ice Dance (during the 90s) because the Russians were stronger and the Italian couple was a direct competitor with the NA or the French couple not with the Russians.
In the last 4 years this has changed. The Russians were their direct competitors so the favor shifted towards NA, the rumors are towards USA in specific.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Maybe it was already pointed out but I just realized Susanna Rahkamo basically voted NO.

I'm in shock. She is IMO one of the classiest people from the figure skating world and one of the few I would 100% trust.

I understand the Finnish association maybe sent a representative but either way I can't imagine she wouldn't have been sure to make her opinion clear on this topic. Whatever the reason is... I don't think I want to know.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Maybe it was already pointed out but I just realized Susanna Rahkamo basically voted NO.

I'm in shock. She is IMO one of the classiest people from the figure skating world and one of the few I would 100% trust.

Maybe some countries/people do feel safer from pressure with anonymous judging. We can't exclude that some of these people really do feel and believe that anonymity gives them integrity.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
My takeaway is that the ISU is unsaveable (unreformable) and the quicker it dies the horrible death it deserves the better. It's taking FS back to the days of the 1930s where no one cared about it anymore than speed skating (which is probably the plan if there is one).
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Maybe some countries/people do feel safer from pressure with anonymous judging. We can't exclude that some of these people really do feel and believe that anonymity gives them integrity.

Both anonymity and non-anonymity are two edged swords that can be used for integrity or for corruption.

Throwing out the highest and the lowest marks does eliminate the extreme biases.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
What was the proposal about the Reverse order draw that did not pass?

The motion about reverse order also failed to pass.

Something that did pass was that the program components for dance are set to increase.

Were excerpts from the ISU's "key decisions" document already posted on GS?
(I've added emphases below corresponding to the posts above. BTW, interesting that the doc makes a reference to "in case the IOC accepts" synchro.)

13 Jun 2014 - Dublin, Ireland

The International Skating Union’s 55th Ordinary Congress concluded on June 13 2014 in Dublin (IRL). Over 220 Delegates from 79 ISU Member federations were present to vote on over 450 proposals. ... For the first time in ISU history a Forum was held to provide a platform to the ISU Members to discuss a number of topics including the future of the ISU and the upcoming 2016 elections.

It was announced that the 56th Ordinary Congress will be held in Dubrovnik (CRO) in June 2016.

Key decisions by the Congress:

Constitution and General Regulations

Following the 2012 Congress to discontinue the Sports Directorate, Congress voted to adjust and better outline the ISU Bodies, Office Holders and Coordinators.

Provisions have been added to the ISU Constitution and General Regulations in case the IOC accepts Synchronized Skating into the Olympic Program.

A proposal to call the third placed Competitors to the podium followed by the second then first was rejected.

Although there were a number of proposals to either change or remove the age limit of ISU Office Holders and Officials, the Congress rejected all proposals in favor to keep the current age limit.

The minimum requirement for Members activities are now better defined and Provisional ISU membership is open to countries not having an operating ice rink under the condition that the Council may apply special conditions to those Members.


Single & Pair Skating and Ice Dance

The Single & Pair Skating and Ice Dance Technical Committees submitted a proposal to have the same time requirements for the Free Skating/Dance across all disciplines, 4 minutes for Ladies, Men, Pairs and Ice Dance and 3 ½ minutes for the Junior skaters. This proposal was rejected by Congress.​
The proposal for the Free Skating/Dance to be skated in reverse skating order to the skaters’ preceding segment result of the competition, with the best placed Competitor skating last was also rejected along with the removal of judges’ anonymity.

Competitors from the Host Member of the Olympic Winter Games who did not qualify through the normal qualification process will still be able to participate as long as they have achieved the required minimum Total Technical Score.

The Ice Dance Program Component will be multiplied by a higher factor as of season 2014/15.​

http://www.isu.org/en/news-and-events/news/2014/06/55th-isu-ordinary-congress
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
A higher factor for PCS in Ice Dance? What, were the judges upset that popular teams were losing because of major errors and the judges were unable to inflate their PCS significantly enough to save them? :rolleye:

That is a horrendous decision. Ice Dance will once again become a popularity contest where it doesn't matter how teams skate technically or in terms of difficulty, when the judges will keep everyone nice and separated by PCS tiers. :disapp:
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
A proposal to call the third placed Competitors to the podium followed by the second then first was rejected.

Well, I always thought it should be done 3rd-2nd-1st, like in all other sports. But then Becki explained to me that it was done 1st-2nd-3rd because it would be difficult for the winner to get past the others when wearing skates. So, for skating, it makes more sense doing it 1st-2nd-3rd. (See this post)

Although there were a number of proposals to either change or remove the age limit of ISU Office Holders and Officials, the Congress rejected all proposals in favor to keep the current age limit.

I've already made my feelings about age limits clear in a thread I started, which unfortunately only got a single, narky reply. (See http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?50603 )

The Single & Pair Skating and Ice Dance Technical Committees submitted a proposal to have the same time requirements for the Free Skating/Dance across all disciplines, 4 minutes for Ladies, Men, Pairs and Ice Dance and 3 ½ minutes for the Junior skaters. This proposal was rejected by Congress.

Personally, I've never understood why the categories had different lengths of programmes. But, I didn't like the proposed times. Rather than reducing the lengths, the other categories should have been increased to the same as the Men's.

The proposal for the Free Skating/Dance to be skated in reverse skating order to the skaters’ preceding segment result of the competition, with the best placed Competitor skating last was also rejected along with the removal of judges’ anonymity.

As for the start order for the FS being in reverse order of the results of the SP, I have been saying that for years! (Here is the last post I made about it, during the Ladies FS in Sochi).

WHY, WHY, WHY, DID THEY REJECT THAT???!!!

They do it like that in ski jumping, and it makes the competition so much easier to follow. And it builds up the drama towards the end. Oh, and it gives us one less reason to come up with conspiracy theories...

Competitors from the Host Member of the Olympic Winter Games who did not qualify through the normal qualification process will still be able to participate as long as they have achieved the required minimum Total Technical Score.

Well, that is what happens in most sports, so I guess it's a good thing that Figure Skating is following suit. Hey, the fans always like to cheer on a local!

Those are just my thoughts.

CaroLiza_fan
 

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
A higher factor for PCS in Ice Dance? What, were the judges upset that popular teams were losing because of major errors and the judges were unable to inflate their PCS significantly enough to save them? :rolleye:

That is a horrendous decision. Ice Dance will once again become a popularity contest where it doesn't matter how teams skate technically or in terms of difficulty, when the judges will keep everyone nice and separated by PCS tiers. :disapp:

Ugh, I really hate this, and I hate the new rules cutting back on lifts and adding that extra choreo spin.

And I'm super disappointed anonymous judging is here to stay, especially considering how many of the largest federations were in favor of getting rid of it. And a majority at that. Boo.

I also wish they had standardized the length of the long programs across the disciplines. I don't really see the point of the men having an extra thirty seconds.
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Maybe it was already pointed out but I just realized Susanna Rahkamo basically voted NO.

I'm in shock. She is IMO one of the classiest people from the figure skating world and one of the few I would 100% trust.

I understand the Finnish association maybe sent a representative but either way I can't imagine she wouldn't have been sure to make her opinion clear on this topic. Whatever the reason is... I don't think I want to know.

Finland bid for - and got - the 2017 worlds. I imagine that was at least partly behind this decision this time.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Finland bid for - and got - the 2017 worlds. I imagine that was at least partly behind this decision this time.

Yes but Sweden too... I don't think it's the main reason.

Synchro at the Games would be a safer bet IMO. Still I don't understand how Finland could possibly vote against it.

This make me a bit sad but honestly, since a year or two I stopped taking this kind of things at heart because it never stop and anyway figure skating is prone to "scandals" (well, just Finland vote really shocked me because of who is the head of their association) because a lot of people can feel very differently toward what is performed on the ice. The results are meaningless most of the times and I do not care about them anymore. They'll do what they want in the end anyway, just watch the skating.
 

Sara

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Maybe it was already pointed out but I just realized Susanna Rahkamo basically voted NO.

I'm in shock. She is IMO one of the classiest people from the figure skating world and one of the few I would 100% trust.

I understand the Finnish association maybe sent a representative but either way I can't imagine she wouldn't have been sure to make her opinion clear on this topic. Whatever the reason is... I don't think I want to know.

From what I heard Finland sent a delegation of 5 people to Dublin, including Rahkamo and several Finnish ISU judges. I got the impression that it was not Rahkamo's decision alone. I know that some Finnish judges are in favour of the anonymous judging system, saying that abolishing it would not solve the issue of transparency and openness but would instead bring more controversy, external pressure etc.
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
From what I heard Finland sent a delegation of 5 people to Dublin, including Rahkamo and several Finnish ISU judges. I got the impression that it was not Rahkamo's decision alone. I know that some Finnish judges are against of getting rid of anonymous judging, saying that would not resolve the issue of transparency and openness but would bring more controversy, external pressure etc.


Where they say the external pressure is coming from and why can't it be dealt with fair and square?
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Where they say the external pressure is coming from and why can't it be dealt with fair and square?

The original concept of anonymous judging was designed to allow judges to have independent thought free of expectations, or pressure, from their own federations and pressure from others.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
The original concept of anonymous judging was designed to allow judges to have independent thought free of expectations, or pressure, from their own federations and pressure or bribes from others.

No. The original concept was designed to make it impossible to uncover cheating.

The talking point about pressure only makes sense if you assume they don't want to cheat.
 
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