Women Skating Stars

Let us go back to Sonja Henie. This is inspired by my thread and some of the responses regarding the popularity or unpopularity of Ashley Wagner and why. I maintain she is special and one of the few athletic performers left on the screne today.

What makes a star besides winning an Olympic Gold Medal? I saw people really malign Tara *including Peggy in a documentary) Because she was so determined and "not intimidated" by anyone. She won gold but people still liked Michelle better and insisted that MK was robbed when even her coach is on record as telling her she would hear it but not so. Tara won he said that night.

When I think of women stars loved by the Us and beyond public I come up with one crucial element that they have or must fake. It isn't level 10 spins or beauty a la Henie. It isn't a a great bustline and sexy beauty like the young Witt. It isn't the speed of Caro or Asian beauty of YuNa combined with off the hook speedy huge 3x3's consistently done in evry major comp practically.

The ones who really capture us and get rich with or without Oly Gold is a personality of humility combined with either bauty or talent. I have never seen Asada bragg that she is ethereal on ice, adorable, charming and can throw 2 triple axels at age 16 in a program. But all are true and we all brag about how much (most of us) of a great skater Mao Asada is, despite her ups and downs in the last quad.

Tell me what skater captured you and why? I can think of two skaters who were among the best ever, world champions, who charmed us as amateurs and pros. They both had confidence but it was quiet and never beat their own drum. Yuka Sato and janet Lynn. I find these two to be superb skaters when a hit list of mesmerizing performances. Talented, attractive but above all, humble-or at least they APPEARED to be so.

Alissa is beloved despite her bombing performances because she was amazingly beautiful, had the classic spins spirals to die for and was sweetly innocent and never bragged even if she was US Champ and drooled over in the skating community. Scott Hamilton is an example or adoration despite her lack of competitive achievement internationally.

Tell me about the women skating stars you loved best. I maintain Ashley is not beloved for her outspoken off ice behavior. She paid a price for it in Sochi and at Worlds where she had the LP of her lifetime. Tonya was at one pointn the best US skater but she did not understand she had to be humble about the triple axel. I talk about Tonya before the whack. She was never liked nor did USFSA even pretend due to her private life.

What needs to happen to allow women figure skaters to compete and talk like other top Athletes? Linsey Vonn doesn't have to play humble honey. We see there is some backlash in the past when Patrick called Zhenya old in Vancouver, but really no one jumped all over the satements made by any male like they do the women. Kwan was beloved for her silver medal nagano humility as much as for her pretty look and consistent jumps.

What does it take to change the culture of figureskating to allow women to be outwardly confident like Sarah was before the Olympics? I recall she quietly said she felt she could compete with anyone and do well and she was right. She did become a bit cocky after that. When do women get to be as outwardly confident as the men like Plusenko? I feel this humble pie behavior mandated for women does a job on the psyche. Act and therefor become. What is your opinion and will this ever change in FS? I hope so because I am tired of seeing women get less than they deserve for believing in themselves.

I always felt that Kristi Yamaguchi was a good example of a skater who was sugar on the outside, steel on the inside. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when she was negotiating her contracts with Stars on Ice.

Personally I am not a big fan of public bragging for either men or women. If you're the best, there's the ice, show me. :yes:

Edited to add: Here is a portrait of a confident person,a person with nothing to prove.

http://www.celebritybabyscoop.com/f...eart-is-forever-outside-your-body-500x654.jpg

I agree with Mathman, I'm not a big fan of the public bragging for either men or women.

Plushenko, while his outward confidence in himself is borderline obnoxious to people, excluding when injured, Plushenko can get out on the ice and back it up.

While I agree there is a double standard for "degrees of humbleness" between men and women, I'm not sure it's any worse in skating than it is in life in general. Obviously none of us have stats to see how big the gender difference really is, but some points to consider:

1) Plenty of people hate Patrick Chan for his big mouth, and Plushenko for his confidence/arrogance/whatever you like to call it. It's not like either of them gets a total free pass.

2) Someone more well-versed in figure skating history could correct me, but wasn't Sonja Henie a well-documented diva? Much more victory-hungry and self-centred than Plush or Patrick ever were?

3) There are plenty of reasons to like Michelle more than Tara outside of their personalities. They have completely different skating styles, for instance. Maybe people simply like Michelle's more nuanced, detailed approach to the music? Also, just because Frank Carroll thinks Michelle wasn't robbed doesn't mean fans can't think she was. (Me, personally? I initially thought she wasn't robbed, but as time passes, I grow uncertain).

4) Tonya Harding pre-whack was probably more a victim of the judges not liking her rather than simply the populace. And likely for her style of skating rather than off-ice personality. (I agree we put too much emphasis on "graceful ice princesses" rather than performances with grit like Ashley's, but that's a slightly different argument than off-ice humbleness).

Speaking for myself, I don't particularly care about your off-ice personality--unless it's too extreme (like Harding whacking her main opponent). There are humble people I'm a fan of (Michelle), cocky people I'm a fan of (Plush), humble people I'm not a fan of (way too many to list), cocky people I'm not a fan of (Patrick). None of this has much to do with their humbleness or cockiness (perceived, of course, since few of us really know these skaters as people. And real people can rarely be divided easily into "humble" and "cocky"). It's simply about whose performances I enjoy and find impressive. I'm all about what people bring to the ice, not what they're like off it. Patrick Chan can probably improve my opinion of him more by landing consistent triple axels, rather than giving more PC interviews (zzZZzz).

Okay, to be very honest, I think I even prefer someone who doesn't seem like a perfect humble angel. Makes them seem more real, and fascinating as people. But I don't really need to find someone fascinating as a person to like their skating, so it's a very minor bonus at best. Just go out there and put out a brilliant performance, whether you're a man or woman.

I agree with Sandpiper. :thumbsup:

Regarding Ashley, I fully agree that she is a great performer. Sometimes I don't like the faces she makes but I do enjoy her overall.
However, I don't think she paid any price in Sochi, let alone at Worlds. The LP of her lifetime was not enough to put her on the podium because other skaters were better.
I also do think that people are overestimating the "power" that her words might have. In all honesty, I very much doubt that the judges care at all of what Ashley has to say about them.

I actually prefer those who are "cocky" and "diva-ish" who can back it up on the ice.

I know this opinion is anathema to this message board but I don't really give a rat's patootie what a person is like OFF the ice! As long as they're not disrespectful of other skaters or arrogant or shove things in your face (yes Evan, I'm talking about you as well as Plush!) I watch figure skating for the skating - much like I watch a movie to be entertained. I don't care that George Clooney couldn't commit in the past or that someone is gay or someone else is a crack fiend.....I just want to see them perform. So much of what is posted on this board is speculation, projection and pure imagination.

I loved Michelle Kwan because she was humble and because she never made excuses and watching her skate was magical. I always felt like she was going to pull it off. I loved Kristi Yamaguchi because she flat out performed and because she lived in the next city over from me (silly, but it was nice) I never felt that Tara, Sarah, or Oksana had paid their dues. I thought their Olympic wins were flukes and that on any given day the results would have been different. Sarah got out quickly and went to college and made another life for herself. Oksana kept trying and trying and failing and failing and was a personal mess for way too long. Too much too soon and poor guidance! Didn't care for her but felt sorry for her. Tara. Where has she been all these years to suddenly appear and be a figure skating commentator? Alissa, Kimmie Meissner, and a host of others were interesting skaters to watch but for whatever reason just didn't have that star power (IMO anyway) Sasha Cohen. Beautiful on the ice but always one step from a crash - and most of the time she made that step!!! Could never relax while watching her (or Alissa for that same reason) It's odd but I feel the same way about Ashley and Mirai but have more confidence in Gracie.

But yes - whatever they say, whatever the perception is - if they can back it up then more power to them

First, Plushenko can be cocky and arrogant because he's earned the right to be.

Second, the American obsession with the concept that ONLY a lady can be a superstar rather annoys the heck out of me.

Third, sometimes it doesn't seem to matter. Look at Max. Seems like the sweetest nicest guy, I've never heard a bad word said about him, great work ethic, great attitude. And yet attracts people who actively wish for him to fall and are proud of that wish. How even?

I think PChan is cute. You don't need to stay humble to be cute. his mouth is not wise, but well I think he has a sense of humor.

Plushy is extremely cute! His occasionally cockiness is cute, too. And he is not arrogant as some people say. He is very supportive of the young skaters. He praises his favorites all the time. I adore his self-confidence.

Lambiel is cute. Like a gentle older brother who is usually abused (by Johnny Weir, lol). His sexiness is irresistible.

Dai is cute, but his lack of self-confidence sometimes irritates me. Like "Come on! You are one of the hottest guys on ice. Believe in yourself, give yourself some credit, please!"

Yuzuru is definitely adorable. His adorableness comes from the inside, he is very emotional and natural. He is humble but confident. I like the kid's attitude. A really good kiddo. :yay: (auntie fan's mood)

Yulia is adorable! No other words to say! My baby!

karne said:

First, Plushenko can be cocky and arrogant because he's earned the right to be.

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what the wonderful right

nguyenghita said:

what the wonderful right

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He's earned the right a darn-sight more than your precious "Queen".

At any rate, he's cocky on the ice, but I've heard some wonderful stories off it. The excitement of Jason Brown when Plushy told him he liked his skating and thought he was wonderful! Staying and signing autographs for hours for fans. I think he probably gets what's often known as "white-line fever" where he just does a personality switch on the ice.

I am not into ladies skating so much, but when I like any lady, usually because I find them awesome!

Yulia is extremely cute! I love her attitude. So much determination and nerves of steel! Her replies to annoying reporters always make my day.

Lena is charming like a diva, I like her attitude. She has good nerves I can see it, especially when she knew Nikita was going to leave her, still she can pull such a performance at Saitama. She moves on very fast. I have my respect for her.

Patrick seems like a good guy at heart. His China comment was really misinformed, but otherwise I don't have huge issues with his interviews. I'm not a fan because he represents a lot I dislike about the current COP system, but I recognize he is a skilled skater and has many admirable qualities. This is where I get confused: I can understand not being a fan of someone, but to label them a terrible skater because of that is rather :scratch:.

Third, sometimes it doesn't seem to matter. Look at Max. Seems like the sweetest nicest guy, I've never heard a bad word said about him, great work ethic, great attitude. And yet attracts people who actively wish for him to fall and are proud of that wish. How even?

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I think it just means many people do dislike certain skaters simply for their skating. And that's how they should be judged. But in the case of Max, I think he's a victim of the "hockey player, great athlete, meh artist" narrative surrounding him. It's gotten to the point where no matter what he does, he's seen as inartistic. Just like Jeremy has the "artist" label attached to him, though I didn't see a whole lot that's artistic about this season's SP.

To give a historical example, Elvis Stojko nearly tied with Ilia Kulik in Nagano on Technical Merit, only losing the gold medal (and the free skate to Candeloro of all people!) based on Presentation. While the final standings were correct, in no way did that make any sense. Though Stojko had superior spins and footwork, it shouldn't be enough to make up ground to Kulik's quad + the quality of all his jumps. On the other hand, Kulik's LP wasn't exactly a work of art (even though I like him better stylistically than Stojko in general). It just goes to show how your reputation precedes you--Stojko got generous marks in Technical Merit despite a watered-down program, but probably got dinged harder artistically than he should've considering Kulik wasn't much better.

In the case of Max, though I'd rather people dislike him for his skating than for (bogus) stories about his personality, I think he's also a victim of his narrative. I suspect many people see him as inartistic because of the commentary and reputation that surrounds him, rather than what he puts on the ice. I hope he'll be able to break out of that.

Rooting for him to fail is kinda out of line. But let's face it, it doesn't only happen to Max. I'm sure some Dai fans felt a sense of primal glee when Patrick fell at 2012 Worlds, followed by rage that he won anyway. If your favourite can only win while someone else goes down... dark human instincts start chanting, "Fall, fall, fall."

Even a thread about female skaters turns into Plushy-bashing? Ok...

I mostly watch men's skating, but I love watching ladies that skate with power, take risks and aren't only about "skating pretty" and being graceful. I love Mao, Miki Ando, Midori Ito. None of them would ever act like a diva, but that's more about their culture than anything else. The Japanese men are no different in that respect. I still like their personalities, but I would have no problem with them having a bit more attitude. I like Julia and her "death glare." Adelina is alright with me. As for Ashley, I think she's fine. I appreciate that she seems genuine and doesn't "stick to the script" like so many US skaters seem to do.

Surya Bonaly is a skater who had some major diva moments...I prefer powerful skating that has more artistry than hers, but I admire her a lot for being so different and not being a delicate little flower like so many other ladies.

It takes a lot for me to be bothered by a skater's personality. Usually it's a combination of them talking a lot of trash about other skaters and also not liking their skating. Patrick and Evan are my most disliked skaters for that reason. I don't like Yagudin's personality either, but at least I do admire his skating. On the other hand I love Plushy and Johnny, and always will.

hm....Interesting thread ....greatest women stars and some people started to bash Plushenko.......I have a question. If Plushenko is so cocky, diva, arrogante etc...why he is the most popular skater in the world??? :yes: For example he beat Yuna in the Icenetwork voting contest. I believe many Fs fans were very surprised. If anybody wants to be great champion like Plushy needs some human qualities...

Women FS stars:

Sonja Henie, Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim, Lipnitskaya..

To me, figure skating is a sport that naturally lends itself to PC remarks like, "I just want to skate my best." To say "I am going out there and kick the other guy's butt!" is kind of silly, really. No matter how brash and confident a skater is, he has no control over how his opponent skates or what the judges might do.

Working hard, being well prepared, being determined to execute the program that he planned -- all that PC pablum -- in reality, that's all there is. Why say anything more?

(Still, I do get a kick out of that champion's aura: I'm Plushenko, you're not. I'm Sonja Henie, you're not. I'm Michelle Kwan, you're not )

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/11/35/32/2479754/13/628x471.jpg

For all of Michelle's sweet and humble nature, when she got on the ice, she was complete, "I'm going to kick your butt!" Those glares she gave from her starting position probably took down many an opponent.

Sandpiper said:

For all of Michelle's sweet and humble nature, when she got on the ice, she was complete, "I'm going to kick your butt!" Those glares she gave from her starting position probably took down many an opponent.

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Agreed -- recently re-watched the "Tosca" program from US Nats (can't remember the year :disapp. The glare she gave that night was right up there with Julia's!

^Tosca was from the 2003-04 season.

Poor Sasha! Maybe evil death-glare Michelle is the cause of all her breakdowns!

Mathman said:

To me, figure skating is a sport that naturally lends itself to PC remarks like, "I just want to skate my best." To say "I am going out there and kick the other guy's butt!" is kind of silly, really. No matter how brash and confident a skater is, he has no control over how his opponent skates or what the judges might do.

Working hard, being well prepared, being determined to execute the program that he planned -- all that PC pablum -- in reality, that's all there is. Why say anything more?

(Still, I do get a kick out of that champion's aura: I'm Plushenko, you're not. I'm Sonja Henie, you're not. I'm Michelle Kwan, you're not )

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/11/35/32/2479754/13/628x471.jpg

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It kind of astounds me that so many skating fans think all these lines are only said by skaters. Do you people never, ever, ever watch another sport? And have none of you seen Bull Durham? This is the stuff sports interviews have been made of since the beginning of athletes being interviewed. Here is the classic scene from a movie that has nothing to do with figure skating or female athletes (language warning):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeVca9MwDX8