2014-15 Grand Prix assignments

aromaticchicken said:

While "Russian jumping beans" is clearly an exaggeration and you need not take too much offense to it (I'm sure other countries would kill for that kind of young talent, regardless of whether or not it lasts), to have little girls compete against ladies and win on the basis of their ability to churn out jumps that would not be possible post puberty seems a little silly.

I mean it's a similar argument in the gymnastics scene. (remember the Chinese team?). Anyway, don't forget that one of the reason many sports have age minimums in the first place is that you don't push kids too hard physically during a prime stage of development, too. I don't want to think about the implications on the men's side where all the sudden 12 year olds are expected to start hitting consistent quads...

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Agree! I mean I don't think it's good for boys younger than 15 doing quad after quad, very bad for their health. As well as for the girls, just look at what happened to Tara Lipninski!

aromaticchicken said:

I mean it's a similar argument in the gymnastics scene. (remember the Chinese team?). Anyway, don't forget that one of the reason many sports have age minimums in the first place is that you don't push kids too hard physically during a prime stage of development, too. I don't want to think about the implications on the men's side where all the sudden 12 year olds are expected to start hitting consistent quads...

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You might be exaggerating, but how many men in Junior have we even seen attempt quads? The tiny amount who have were/are all 15 or older.

For the whole age rule thing, either you are the best, or you aren't. Period. Age should have nothing to do with it.

If you do happen to be the best in the world at a young age, why restrict that talent? They would be that good regardless of any age restriction imposed.

Look what happened to Liza Tuk---her first year in the GP was fine, then she grew and she went downhill. Sot romped in the JGP then struggled in the GP because of growth. If they had stayed in the JGP for those years they would have continued to win while they grew.

Amei said:

I think it's good for it to be consistent whether it be to increase the GP age or decrease Worlds/Olympics age. I wonder if the ISU will try to force countries, like Russia, that allow skaters to compete at Sr. Nationals at 12/13 years old. A couple of years Russia has had to send their 5th (2011) and 4th/7th (2012) finishers to Euros because the higher finishers weren't age eligible.

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Not only Russians.
USA has no age limits at all, only limits of level. Mirai Nagasu became US Champion being 14, not eligible to ISU Senior Championships.

I believe, it is inner deal of federations.

chuckm said:

Look what happened to Liza Tuk---her first year in the GP was fine, then she grew and she went downhill. Sot romped in the JGP then struggled in the GP because of growth. If they had stayed in the JGP for those years they would have continued to win while they grew.

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I don't think Liza is a good example because in her first two seasons at the senior GP she got two golds, a silver and a bronze, made the GPF both times and won a medal at Europeans. She started to struggle last season, at 17 y.o., her second full season as a senior by any rules.

I liked previous age limits more, it gave youngsters an opportunity to test themselfs as seniors and compete with the best skaters in the World at the Grand Prix before going to the big events. IMO, skaters like Julia, Adelina, Liza and even Mao benefitted from it, because by the time they were going to Europeans/Worlds (and in Julias case to the Olympics) they skated at the Grand Prix for two seasons and were already well known and quite experienced

karne said:

Because they have the frigging JUNIOR GRAND PRIX for a reason? What next, are you going to start whinging that the minimum age of 13 for the JGP is totally cruel and it should be lowered to 10 so the baby Russian jumping beans can go on it?

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The youngest Russian girl at JrNats was afaik Anastasia Gubanova (2014, 11 years and few days less than 2 months old, 7th place).
At about the same age (about 1 month elder) was at her first JrNats Evgenia Medvedeva (12th place).
Radionova had her first JrNats being 12 (and was 4th - very talented girl), Sakhanvich - few days before her 12th birthday (was 12th).
Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva also were 12 at their first JrNats.

And Gubanova is not a "bean", she is really nice skater. Her SP at JrNats http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04RX5heUbhM

Russia does not need to lower minimum JGP age.
With existing limit Russian girls have 2 to 3 JGP Final medals (including gold medal) at 4 seasons from 2010 to 2013.

Lucky Star said:

I liked previous age limits more, it gave youngsters an opportunity to test themselfs as seniors and compete with the best skaters in the World at the Grand Prix before going to the big events. IMO, skaters like Julia, Adelina, Liza and even Mao benefitted from it, because by the time they were going to Europeans/Worlds (and in Julias case to the Olympics) they skated at the Grand Prix for two seasons and were already well known and quite experienced

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Tara Lipinski too, at Olympics she was two-times gold medalist of Grand Prix Final (at that time it was called Championship Series Final).

Here's my belated thoughts on the GP assignments

Ladies
- Elated Ashley Cain got an assignment as she seems to have been working really hard since Nationals
- Happy to see Wagner lucked into the easiest field with Skate Canada. Hopefully if she can start the GP strong, that will be a good confidence booster.
-I think some people are discounting Polina. I'll be surprised if she's not on the podium at her 2 events and I won't be surprised if she upsets Gracie and/or Sotnikova at NHK. Thrilled we'll get to see 2 of the top Americans head to head. Adelina v. Anna will also be interesting.
-Suprised in a good way USFS picked Radionova. I thought they'd want to keep the field as weak as possible for princess Gracie. If Gracie can win here, that's a more legit victory.
-On the one hand, I'm happy with the vote of confidence the USFS gave Mirai by sending her to SA. From a larger US standpoint though, I think it was stupid. She would have definitely gotten 2 spots elsewhere and the host picks could have been used to give Cesario or Cain a second assignment or Miller or Long a first assignment.

Men's
-I'm not so knowledgable here and the men are unpredictable. I knew they would give SA to both Jeremy and Jason and I think that's the fairest way to do it. Excited to see what Farris can do this fall.

Pairs
-Thrilled that my new favorites Kayne & O'Shea got 2 assignments. A medal would be kind of miraculous in those fields but who knows?
-Does anyone really think Kaviguti & Smirnov will be able to come back/stay heathy? I just don't see it and was surprised to see them with 2 assignments.
-Scimeca and Knierim getting SA over Zhang/Bartholomay seems like a slight or at least an indicator of who USFS prefers. With C/S out, I think Z/B earned the spot that typically goes to the top US finisher of the last season.
-Have a feeling it will be a good fall for Duhamel and Radford.
-Glad to see Leng/Shnapir will be on the GP but not until November when they've had some time. Excited to see all the new pairs actually.
-Really sad not to see Dylan and Lubov. I had a feeling Russia might make this difficult for them. SC didn't even hold a TBA spot in pairs

Dance
-Curious to see if Chock and Bates with a little bit of home support/judging will be able to beat B&S at SA.
-So excited for the senior debut of Hawayek and Baker. I expect they may overtake Aldridge/Eaton right out of the gate. A big thing to watch will be how their scores are looking relative to the Shibs and H/D/
-Paul/Islam seem to have tougher events but it will be exciting to see them head to Gilles & Poirier. Weaver & Poje should have 2 easy wins and are my early favorites for the World title.

flutzy13 said:

-I think some people are discounting Polina. I'll be surprised if she's not on the podium at her 2 events

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I can't estimate who of US ladies has better chance at GP.
Ashley - she was good at GP for years.
Gracie - she looks really stronger than Ashley, but did not get Final at 2012 and 2013.
Polina - so young, so talented.

I believe, all three have about the same chance.

Would love it if somehow they all made it to the final ;D

Isabel_O'Reilly said:

Why do you have to be so rude? I mean it's obvious they changed the age this year to stop the influx of talent, particularly from certain countries but that remark was just uncalled for. It's not like you were talking to someone and something slipped out without meaning to. You could have considered what you said before you posted. If I didn't figuratively choke back most of the things I wished to say I would have been banned for many of my remarks.

And the only mention was of the sudden change for the SGP so don't start putting words in peoples mouth about the age for the JGP. Also you shouldn't use "Russian jumping beans" when we can tell you're just using it to try and dismiss the pure talent that's coming.

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I think they actually changed it so the ages would be uniform across the board for Senior ISU Championships like Euros/4CC/Worlds/Olympics rather than 14 year olds doing SGP and then Junior Worlds.

I much prefer LADIES on the GP-not prepubescent girls.
It's unfair for a lady of 21 to compete with a string bean that hasn't hit puberty yet. I wouldn't mind an age of 16 and up.
The 14 y/o's can do the JGP.

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I think it's good there is an age limit. If they are meant to skate with the ladies, they'll skate with the ladies.

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I think it's good to make them wait until they are 15 just like at Worlds and the Olympics. If they are that good they can wait another year and if puberty gets them well that's how it goes. I for one as glad not to see 4'7 65lbs little girls on the Senior GP.

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Because they have the frigging JUNIOR GRAND PRIX for a reason? What next, are you going to start whinging that the minimum age of 13 for the JGP is totally cruel and it should be lowered to 10 so the baby Russian jumping beans can go on it?

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If figure skating is such a physically peculiar sport, wouldn't it be logical and fair for athletes and fans to create two different disciplines then:
- adult figure skating (with age+ limit) for viewers who like watching grown-up skaters only, irked by "jumping beans",
- open figure skating (without age limits) for viewers who like watching simply the best skaters, no matter if 12 or 30yo?
(Of course plus strict monitoring and life-long ban for every coach/school/fed proved messing with children growth/health issues)
Junior competitions could stay the same as they are.

Everybody's happy and live happily ever after, right? :think:

papa said:

If figure skating is such a physically peculiar sport, wouldn't it be logical and fair for athletes and fans to create two different disciplines then:
- adult figure skating (with age+ limit) for viewers who like watching grown-up skaters only, irked by "jumping beans",
- open figure skating (without age limits) for viewers who like watching simply the best skaters, no matter if 12 or 30yo?
(Of course plus strict monitoring and life-long ban for every coach/school/fed proved messing with children growth/health issues)
Junior competitions could stay the same as they are.

Everybody's happy and live happily ever after, right? :think:

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Is it needed?

Let us see JrWorlds Champions from 2009 to 2014.
2009 - Alena Leonova, she had not 3+3 combo. After that she earned very good 3T+3T and became World Silver Medalist. Progressed much after being JrWorld Champion.
2009 3rd place - Ashley Wagner. No doubt became really stronger being more mature.
2010 - Kanako Murakami. Also became better being more mature.
2011 - Adelina Sotnikova. Her skating at Olympics-2014 was very good, much better than at any competition before (somebody may tell that she doesn't deserve gold medal, but no doubt she deserves medal of Olympics).
2011 2nd place - Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. Also skated better being more mature.
2012 - Julia Lipnitskaia. At season 2013-2014 (GP Skate Canada, GP Final, Team Event Olympics) skated really better than at that JrWorlds.
2012 2nd place - Gracie Gold. No doubt progressed after that JrWorlds.
2013 and 2014 - Elena Radionova. She was better at 14 than at 13, also at 13 than at 12 and so on.

So what we see? Young Ladies who were most successful in Junors are better when are elder.
Yes, of course not all the Young Ladies become very good Senior Ladies - but it is sports, some retirement is normal.

I don't see problem at all.
If young age would give advantage, we would see many 14-years-old Ladies at GP and many 15-years-old at Worlds.
But at GP-2011 were only Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva, GP-2012 - Lipnitskaia, GP2013 - Radionova of that age.
At Worlds situation is about the same. At 2014 were three 15-years-old girls (Lipnitskaia, Pogorilaya, Edmunds) - and who can say that they are not good enough in all aspects for Worlds?
Past some seasons (after Olympics-2010) I don't remember at Worlds youngsters with really high results.
Some years ago at Worlds were youngsters Kostner, Ando, Asada, Kim. They all were good and became better when were more mature.

Maybe, youngsters show very good results because they are very good skaters? (so good that not at any year may exist)
And at most they become better being more mature?

AlexRus said:

At Worlds situation is about the same. At 2014 were three 15-years-old girls (Lipnitskaia, Pogorilaya, Edmunds) - and who can say that they are not good enough in all aspects for Worlds?

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With all the respect - do you read the forum? :sarcasm:
Seriously, haven't you noticed huge group of skating fans dissing every young girl skater that achieves some success?
Every single 13,14,15 women winner/champion/medalist has been constantly diminished and disrespected by them using two magical words:
maturity - noone exactly defined what it is yet, except that for sure NO 13-15yo HAS IT! :sarcasm:
growth spurt - noone exactly knows how much it'll affect the skater, except for sure in year or two IT WILL CRUSH ALL THE BLOODY RUSSIANS!

There is big group of fans that don't want prepubescent skaters on senior ice - as you see above, they even say their presence is unfair(!) to other grown-up skaters. Imagine how do they feel when such "jumping bean" wins!
If there is no common respect for champions amongst the fans, the sport will not progress. It's really unusual and harmful situation for integrity of the sport.

Change the rules or acknowledge them.

papa said:

With all the respect - do you read the forum? :sarcasm:
Seriously, haven't you noticed huge group of skating fans dissing every young girl skater that achieves some success?
Every single 13,14,15 women winner/champion/medalist has been constantly diminished and disrespected by them using two magical words:
maturity - noone exactly defined what it is yet, except that for sure NO 13-15yo HAS IT! :sarcasm:
grow spurth - noone exactly knows how much it'll affect the skater, except for sure in year or two IT WILL CRUSH ALL THE BLOODY RUSSIANS!

There is big group of fans that don't want prepubescent skaters on senior ice - as you see above, they even say their presence is unfair(!) to other grown-up skaters. Imagine how do they feel when such "jumping bean" wins!
If there is no common respect for champions amongst the fans, the sport will not progress. It's really unusual and harmful situation for integrity of the sport.

Change the rules or acknowledge them.

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True, there is a huge group that is dissing every young lady that dares to compete at seniors, but then there is also another huge group that appreciates talent. by the way, have you also noticed that the same people who are calling Lipnitskaya and Pogorilaya pre-pubescebnt girls, suddenly turn around 180 degrees when suddenly USA had their own prepubescent Polina? So one wonder whether it is more about envy and nationality of the skater, rather than about the fact that some skater is younger than others.

Newsflash:

Nobody, ever, no matter who they are, has the same body at 19 as they had at 15.

The body of a grown woman at 19 will NEVER be the same as the body of a child of 15.

This applies to everyone: Yulia, Polina, Anna, Elena and all.

It is not "dissing" a skater's talent to point this out.

It is also not "dissing" a skater to observe that their jump technique is already dodgy before any of this additional growth takes place.

I think the sport is evolving younger. A lot of these girls will retire around 19. Most of the older skaters will be from feds with a weak developmental system.

I hope that isn't the case. I happen to like some of the older skaters. If girls retired at 19, we wouldn't have seen Yuna's Les Mis in 2013, Carolina's Bolero, Mao's Rachmaninov in 2014 and so on and so on.

Mrs. P said:

I hope that isn't the case. I happen to like some of the older skaters. If girls retired at 19, we wouldn't have seen Yuna's Les Mis in 2013, Carolina's Bolero, Mao's Rachmaninov in 2014 and so on and so on.

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I agree completely. I love what a well rounded fully developed skater brings but that said....the excitement of watching a young skater seemingly defy the natural evolution most of us are bound to is really exciting. 15 yr olds at my rink just don't seem to possess freakish skills. I love my locals doing their thing but I think seeing what they're capable of and someone like Lip or Radinova are capable of at such a young age blows all of my circuits. I think there is room for both in this sport and to me it's just more