Quadruple toe loop | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Quadruple toe loop

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
:scratch: Sandhu? The only halfway clean performance I remember from him was 03-04 GPF, and even there he got absolutely no flow out of nearly every jump.

Here's a nice one (although I cannot tell if it is two-footed because of the video quality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qdbm0zxGM

What I like is:
a) his free leg is straight on the entry
b) he doesn't bend his back and hunch over on the take off; he keeps a relatively straight line
c) he is perfectly straight in the air
d) his free leg is straight on the landing

Yes, there are other skaters who have better flow out but on many aspects of the jump I think Sandhu is the best.
 

jace93

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
and Chan and Hanyu have always the most beautiful 4T ?

I think it's quite subjective, but as I said above aesthetically I, and some other reading the answers, prefers a good 4 toe by Hanyu or Chan rather than a good jump by Plushy... that doesn't mean that Plushenko jumps are bad or even middle-of-the-pack... we can all agree that all of the athletes that have been named in this thread are some of the best jumper of history (even though some are not between the most consistent ;))
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Plushenko is my choice, followed by Hanyu. Chan had a very good one when he landed it (not worthy of +3 from every single judge if he so much as lands it like he gets, but all of Chan's scoring is of course :laugh: as we all know) but due to his inconsistency, like he suffers on all his jumps, I wouldn't put him on par with those other two. Stojko also had an excellent one.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
:scratch: Sandhu? The only halfway clean performance I remember from him was 03-04 GPF, and even there he got absolutely no flow out of nearly every jump. Could you link me to a beautiful 4T he's done? I, er, don't quite get the concept of a beautiful fallen 4T... in fact, that infuriates me more because I don't understand why they'd fall on something that looked perfectly fine in the air...

Goebel had the most effortless quads, but I wouldn't say they were the most beautiful. Maybe it's just that his overall skating was so slow, but his quads aren't... I dunno, exciting? I would say he has the best quad salchow though, but imo there are better picks for the toe (I would say he's in the Top 5, for sure. Just not my #1).

Saying Sandhu had the best quad toe is comical. When he barely landed one or landed one with no flow out or slightly two footed people were thrilled. He also slowed to a crawl going into it (along with many of his jumps). To his credit he was the only top skater in Canada post Stojko who had one at all.

As for Goebel the only jump he is the best at is the quad salchow, and even on that Chengiang Li had a better one easily when he landed it but would give that to Goebel due to way greater consistency, doing multiple quad salchows per program, doing quad sal-triple toe, etc....Goebel had a very good quad toe, but there are others with better ones, it just fit very well into his overall program of being able to include 3 quads which nobody else was doing.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I give Stojko credit for being the main reason the quad toe is even in men's figure skating. But I personally don't find his quad very aesthetically pleasing, due to his slight hesitation before he picks in, and his huge lean on the landings (I don't mind a slight lean, and I certainly don't value straightness above all else, as shown below, but Stojko's lean was overboard). Of course, it's just his technique, it works for him, I just don't know if it'll get good GOE these days. I'd argue Ilia Kulik had a better-looking quad when he landed it, though of course his wasn't as influential.

Here's a nice one (although I cannot tell if it is two-footed because of the video quality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qdbm0zxGM

What I like is:
a) his free leg is straight on the entry
b) he doesn't bend his back and hunch over on the take off; he keeps a relatively straight line
c) he is perfectly straight in the air
d) his free leg is straight on the landing

Yes, there are other skaters who have better flow out but on many aspects of the jump I think Sandhu is the best.
I still think Sandhu is a very odd choice. I don't see why being stick-straight should be valued above all other aspects of a jump. In fact, I'm not sure being so stick-straight is either aesthetically pleasing (for me) or good technique to execute the jumps (since he barely ever landed it). He has little flow in or out of the jump, even though his overall skating isn't as snail-slow as Goebel's. He doesn't get much height or rotation either, and as a result struggles to keep the free leg off the ground on the landing. It's a wonder he rotated his jumps at all.

I'm not saying he has the worst quad ever or something, but I wouldn't put him in a conversation with Plushenko (who had great height and tight rotation, and did 4-3-3 combos in his prime), Hanyu (who has the most effortless landings), Goebel (whose quads had an ease Sandhu's didn't come close to), or Chan (who might not be the most consistent, but usually had decent flow out and could do beautiful 4-3s).
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The problem with Kulik's quad is the landing was not usually of good quality, with a big swing around or something like that. I only saw him do one really beautiful quad ever, at the 96 grand prix final. He was an inconsistent skater and jumper in general anyway, so of course missed many of his quad toe attempts altogether. He also had a strange takeoff technique which I didn't like, lifting his leg up higher than most and around.

I think you have to consider the time Stojko skated in. Back then he was the only guy to have truly mastered a consistent quad, and he had a consistent quad-triple combination which nobody else was even doing ever. I did find his quad quite attractive too. He was very straight in the air, showed great control on the landing, usually got great height, the trajectory was great. Yeah he did lean forward a bit on landing like he does on all his jumps, but not nearly as much as some of his other jumps, and that was the only fault I saw.

Note overall I am not a Stojko fan and found him incredibly overscored much of his career, and wouldn't have even awarded him over half the medals and placements he got. Overall his jumping ability was very overrated to what it was potrayed. I cant deny his quad prowess though.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I still think Sandhu is a very odd choice. I don't see why being stick-straight should be valued above all other aspects of a jump. In fact, I'm not sure being so stick-straight is either aesthetically pleasing (for me) or good technique to execute the jumps (since he barely ever landed it). He has little flow in or out of the jump, even though his overall skating isn't as snail-slow as Goebel's. He doesn't get much height or rotation either, and as a result struggles to keep the free leg off the ground on the landing. It's a wonder he rotated his jumps at all.

I guess I like what I like :) I find that jump to be aesthetically pleasing, much more than Stojko who had a clunky entrance into his quad.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Love Ilia, but I wouldn't include him in the best quad discussion.

Now, if we were talking triple Axels... :love:
 

Sabrina

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Here's a nice one (although I cannot tell if it is two-footed because of the video quality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qdbm0zxGM

What I like is:
a) his free leg is straight on the entry
b) he doesn't bend his back and hunch over on the take off; he keeps a relatively straight line
c) he is perfectly straight in the air
d) his free leg is straight on the landing

Yes, there are other skaters who have better flow out but on many aspects of the jump I think Sandhu is the best.

Thank you for the youtube link. Amazing performance! Ballet on ice. Great day for Sandhu. He was the most gifted skater I ever knew, but his head worked against him. His 4T is so perfect in positions...as you say straight as an arrow, lol
 

chairmanmao

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Chan and Hanyu. Chan for me had the most beautiful 4T-3T ever. If there was one thing that save PChan from losing despite popping 3A's and falling on triples it was his 4T. Big point getter.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Neither of these two skaters landed their quad toes with the consistency or regularity of today's skaters, but they were the first two (I believe) to have them ratified. I think it's worth noting that technique is refined over time both by the innovators and those who come after. Here are two examples of their better attempts later in their careers.

Browning performing Antares from 1998, 10 years after he was credited with landing the 1st quad. (yes I know it probably wouldn't count under IJS, but neither would the first 3a or ladies 3z among others)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWkZ1z1_0bU#t=65

Urmanov 1996/1997 GPF FS 3rd place (note: Stojko and Kulik had already landed quads in the FS ; a first for number of attempts in one event at that point in time if I'm not mistaken)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGOgJ8d7V0#t=46

BTW...here is Kuliks' quad toe from the same event. Much better landing than the one he did in Nagano.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXy7qBMvvOM#t=24
 

Scovies

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
But both Chan and Hanyu have landed it in combination, only if you're talking about landing it in competitions, if so then I agree, Chan landed 4T-3T quite consistently. In 2011 Hanyu had 4T-3T in his SP but never managed to land at competitions even if he landed it all the time at shows and now he does 4T-3A or 4T-3A-3A all the time at shows too. I think he just doesn't put the 4T-3T at his layout because he wants to land that 4S no matter what. I would prefer the 4T-3T because it would be light years more consistent that the 4S but well, what can we do.

I always figured the reason Hanyu doesn't do a 4-3 is so he can backload his programs with as many triples as possible for the extra bonus. I remember the BBC commentators saying that Machida should have come closer to (or possibly broken) the SP record at Worlds, but they never brought up how the composition of his program worked against him compared to Hanyu's -- you get more points by opening with a solo quad, and then having your axel and combination in the second half. I think a solid 4T-3T is easily within his capabilities (especially now, moreso than in 2011), but he chooses to put his jump combos in the second half of his programs to maximize his TES.

But yeah, in this contest it's Chan or Hanyu for me. They make it look so effortless.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Plushenko is my choice, followed by Hanyu. Chan had a very good one when he landed it (not worthy of +3 from every single judge if he so much as lands it like he gets, but all of Chan's scoring is of course as we all know) but due to his inconsistency, like he suffers on all his jumps, I wouldn't put him on par with those other two. Stojko also had an excellent one.

Not that you'd ever admit it, but Chan actually has one of the most consistent quad toes in the men's field, and hardly "suffers" on it. Last season, Chan hit 3/3 quads at TEB, 2/3 quads at SC, 3/3 quads at the GPF, 2/3 quads at Nationals, and 3/4 quads in Sochi. That's 13 out of 16 clean quad toes (81.3% success rate). Hanyu by comparison hit 1/2 quad toes at Worlds, 3/3 in Sochi, 2/2 at GPF, 2/2 at Nationals, 1/2 at TEB, 1/2 at SC (although the one in his SP was a wild, messy landing and shouldn't be considered "clean" in my books), 2/2 at Finlandia. That's 12 out of 15 clean quad toes (arguably 11).. or 80% success rate. :sarcasm:


In 2012-2013 season, Chan landed 3/3 at Worlds, 3/3 at Nationals, 2/3 at the GPF, 3/3 quads at CoR, 1/3 at SC, for 12/15 success rate.
In 2011-2012 season, Chan landed 2/3 at WTT, 2/3 at Worlds, 2/3 at 4CC, 3/3 at Nationals, 2/3 at GPF, 2/3 at TEB, 1/3 at SC, for a 14/21 success rate.
In 2010-2011 season, Chan landed 3/3 at Worlds, 1/2 at GPF, 3/3 at Nationals, 1/2 at CoR, 1/2 at SC, for a 9/15 success rate (being the first season he really started competing the quad).

His quad success has actually improved over the past 4 seasons, from 60% to 66.7% to 80%, to 81.3%. Not to mention, at Nationals from 2011-2014, he hit 11/12 clean quad toes. 91.7% success rate at Nationals, and 80%+ success rate over the past two seasons. Not bad for somebody who supposedly suffers on all of his jumps. :laugh: :rolleye:

It's his consistency on his quad - and the quality of his quad (and quad-triple) - that's allowed Chan to win his vast number of titles which you're so incessantly bitter about. :laugh: It's the reason he continues to have the highest scoring freeskate ever and highest total score ever. ;)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I'd say when he hits it, probably Hanyu has the best quad - his quad in his SP at the Olympics was MONEY. He makes it look effortless. Chan does have one up on him in that he's actually consistently landed 4T+3T in competitions, whereas I don't believe Hanyu ever has in competition. I love the trajectory of Chan's quads - he gets the perfect ratio of distance to height. Plushenko has a very consistent quad, but it lacked the flow on the landing of Hanyu/Chan, and I don't really like his hunched posture going into it (and obviously he doesn't do transitions leading into it as Hanyu/Chan). I prefer quads where the skater maintains good posture throughout, and the quad itself "lobs" itself through the air with a parabolic trajectory.

I actually agree with the earlier statement about Sandhu's air position in a quad... it was pretty breathtaking to watch, although he was rather inconsistent with it. Stojko is obviously the quad king. It's amazing that he pioneered such a rare jump and really elevated the sport to the next level... however, the actual quality of his quad pales in comparison to Hanyu/Chan and isn't even as good as Plushenko/Yagudin in my opinion.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I have to say that, for perfect technique and gracefulness, for me it is Chan: he is actually consistent and when he lands it, he receives incredible GOEs that he deserves (I'm just talking about 4T and 4T combos in their own ;) )
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I hope we will see quad loop battle soon, if not this season then the one after that. Since I've heard Javi and Yuzu both can land quad loop now. What a pity no clip of Javi's quad loop yet, but for sure I think Javi's quad loop would be very beautiful if he lands it.
Here is 2 of Yuzu's quad loop http://instagram.com/p/qlgTmgJY1Y/
 
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