Women and the Quad

readernick · Oct 11, 2019

Elucidus said:
No, you are wrong. Actually Liu never did 3.25 rotations in the air. To do it she needs to land fully rotated quad - which she never was able to do. All her quads have less than 3 rotations in the air.

Yep, exactly this. Unless those people will begin to complain more often and more strongly about Shoma and Zhou quads first and foremost and/or have long history of such complains long before Trusove entered the scene - I will never see them as anything but sexists hypocrites.

First, you are right about the sexism. Many men also prerotate. They should also get negative GOE. As should the ladies who pretotate their triples.

However, you also demonstrate hypocrisy because you are only concerned about the non-Russian skaters who prerotate. Frankly, other than Trusova' s 4T and Valieva's 4T, all three ladies quads are heavily prerotated. But, I have only seen you complain frequently and noisily about Alysa. Perhaps take your own advice.

lzxnl · Oct 11, 2019

Elucidus said:
No, you are wrong. Actually Liu never did 3.25 rotations in the air. To do it she needs to land fully rotated quad - which she never was able to do. All her quads have less than 3 rotations in the air.

Yep, exactly this. Unless those people will begin to complain more often and more strongly about Shoma and Zhou quads first and foremost and/or have long history of such complains long before Trusove entered the scene - I will never see them as anything but sexists hypocrites.

Shoma and Alysa deserve a deduction for a terrible takeoff at least, a UR call at worst. Alysa probably pre-rotates a bit more than Shoma, to be fair; at least Shoma turns 270, whereas I've seen Alysa turn a full turn.

Vincent URs so much, although I must say he did better at Worlds. His last outing at US Classic was still heavily UR'd though.

Blacknight · Oct 11, 2019

readernick said:
First, you are right about the sexism. Many men also prerotate. They should also get negative GOE. As should the ladies who pretotate their triples.

However, you also demonstrate hypocrisy because you are only concerned about the non-Russian skaters who prerotate. Frankly, other than Trusova' s 4T and Valieva's 4T, all three ladies quads are heavily prerotated. But, I have only seen you complain frequently and noisily about Alysa. Perhaps take your own advice.

You mean Trusova' s 4S have difference to men 4S?

jenaj · Oct 11, 2019

Is pre-rotation a thing under IJS? If not, why do so many keep claiming it should have been penalized?

macy · Oct 11, 2019

jenaj said:
Is pre-rotation a thing under IJS? If not, why do so many keep claiming it should have been penalized?

exactly my thoughts. i don't understand why anyone tries to make it a big deal when the ISU doesn't even pay attention to it. kinda pointless.

gkelly · Oct 11, 2019

jenaj said:
Is pre-rotation a thing under IJS?

Only if it's visible in real time (no slow-motion replay allowed) and only if the skater is clearly facing backward when they take off for an axel or forward when they take off for any other jump.

It most often applies to toe loops where the whole body position changes while the skater is still on the ice before even beginning to take off (i.e., "toe axels").

The rules don't explicitly say so, but I think it's probably better to think of prerotation/cheated takeoff as an error that occurs if the skater has already changed from backward to forward or forward to backward before they start to lift off the ice. A certain amount of rotation during the split second between when the takeoff has begun and the skater's weight is leaving the ice but the blade hasn't completely lost contact, that can only be discerned by slow motion video, is not considered an error. Or at most, only an error of quality that judges could reflect in their GOEs.

lzxnl · Oct 11, 2019

jenaj said:
Is pre-rotation a thing under IJS? If not, why do so many keep claiming it should have been penalized?

As mentioned above, it should, at the very least, qualify as a poor takeoff, because that's what it is. Then, the rotations are technically insufficient, so it should count as underrotation. I have a tingling sense that Shoma was penalised for a 4F UR at 2018 GPF for his prerotation, as he landed at the right spot on the ice.

nussnacker · Oct 11, 2019

lzxnl said:
As mentioned above, it should, at the very least, qualify as a poor takeoff, because that's what it is. Then, the rotations are technically insufficient, so it should count as underrotation. I have a tingling sense that Shoma was penalised for a 4F UR at 2018 GPF for his prerotation, as he landed at the right spot on the ice.

Poor take off I believe has nothing to do with prerotation, at least from what I remember.

Besides, not all of the deductions are actually applied by the judges. It doesn’t matter how small the jump is, take Satoko or Tarusina Anna, judges never give the deduction for “poor height and distance”, and if I have to think of skaters who’d get it, I can definitely say they exist, it’s just not applied.
And I don’t really want them to deduct for “poor height and distance”, because it will probably mean that some skaters like Satoko would be getting negative goes on pretty much every single jump, and that doesn’t seem fair to me. She still lands those jumps, and giving her not-so-high goe seems like already a good enough punishment. Something more would be an overkill.

All those rules are applied with some restrictions, or intuitively should I say? I remember there were days when any UR jump was given a downgrade, which I thought also wasn’t fair. But the system is getting better at making the rules to be applied more and more by adjusting them, reducing punishments sometimes, and perhaps, at some point they will all be applied.

gkelly · Oct 11, 2019

If you want to see jumps with "poor" height and distance, watch less elite skating and more lower levels. Then compare those jumps to those of elite skaters for whom jump size is not a strength.

There's a wide range of jump size between "very good" (i.e., deserving of the positive GOE bullet point) and "poor" (deserving of deductions.

Most skaters at international junior and senior level will fit somewhere in the middle, somewhere between adequate and good, earning neither reward nor penalty for the size of their jumps. (Other aspects of quality would be reflected accordingly.)

nussnacker · Oct 11, 2019

gkelly said:
If you want to see jumps with "poor" height and distance, watch less elite skating and more lower levels. Then compare those jumps to those of elite skaters for whom jump size is not a strength.

There's a wide range of jump size between "very good" (i.e., deserving of the positive GOE bullet point) and "poor" (deserving of deductions.

Most skaters at international junior and senior level will fit somewhere in the middle, somewhere between adequate and good, earning neither reward nor penalty for the size of their jumps. (Other aspects of quality would be reflected accordingly.)

Well, your standards for poor height and distance are clearly lower than mine, if the only ones that fit this description are non-elites who barely do doubles and practically don’t leave the ground on their jumps.

gkelly · Oct 11, 2019

I think there's a difference between "adequate" or "average" and "poor."

Whether we're talking about jump speed, height, distance, or air position, or body positions in spins or step/choreo sequences or quality of steps and moves.

How bad does it have to get before a GOE minus is warranted? (And how much worse to deserve -2 or -3 for what might be considered very poor?)

Does everything that is less than good count as poor, or should there be a middle ground? And should that middle ground encompass the majority of examples, or should most elements be considered worthy of either penalty or reward?

Different judges will draw the lines in different places. Different fans can also.

lzxnl · Oct 11, 2019

nussnacker said:
Poor take off I believe has nothing to do with prerotation, at least from what I remember.

Besides, not all of the deductions are actually applied by the judges. It doesn’t matter how small the jump is, take Satoko or Tarusina Anna, judges never give the deduction for “poor height and distance”, and if I have to think of skaters who’d get it, I can definitely say they exist, it’s just not applied.
And I don’t really want them to deduct for “poor height and distance”, because it will probably mean that some skaters like Satoko would be getting negative goes on pretty much every single jump, and that doesn’t seem fair to me. She still lands those jumps, and giving her not-so-high goe seems like already a good enough punishment. Something more would be an overkill.

All those rules are applied with some restrictions, or intuitively should I say? I remember there were days when any UR jump was given a downgrade, which I thought also wasn’t fair. But the system is getting better at making the rules to be applied more and more by adjusting them, reducing punishments sometimes, and perhaps, at some point they will all be applied.

Excess prerotation is, by definition, a poor takeoff. If you're taking off while almost turning on the ice a full turn, you haven't done the takeoff correctly (and I know the feeling having 'landed' some really, really abominably prerotated doubles). But yes, I would agree that the judges don't seem to be applying all of the deductions.

Satoko definitely deserves a lot of negative GOEs, tbh. Her jumps really don't look that great and, from an athletic standpoint, it's unfair that she gets marked similar to someone like Rika, who has decent height and distance on all of her jumps (except perhaps that loop).

gkelly said:
I think there's a difference between "adequate" or "average" and "poor."

Whether we're talking about jump speed, height, distance, or air position, or body positions in spins or step/choreo sequences or quality of steps and moves.

How bad does it have to get before a GOE minus is warranted? (And how much worse to deserve -2 or -3 for what might be considered very poor?)

Does everything that is less than good count as poor, or should there be a middle ground? And should that middle ground encompass the majority of examples, or should most elements be considered worthy of either penalty or reward?

Different judges will draw the lines in different places. Different fans can also.

If we're discussing top competitive skaters, then our scoring system should distinguish the ok jumps from the very best jumps. That's only fair.

gkelly · Oct 11, 2019

lzxnl said:
If we're discussing top competitive skaters, then our scoring system should distinguish the ok jumps from the very best jumps. That's only fair.

Well, if fans are discussing the top competitive skaters, then fan discussions (or a scoring system used by fans of elite-only skating) can penalize OK jumps for being only just OK.

But the official ISU scoring system is not just discussing top competitive skaters and needs to put those skaters in a broader context along with making fine distinctions among them.

For judges who might be called upon to judge outstanding (if they're lucky), very good, above average, OK, so-so, poor, and extremely poor jumps all in the same competition (just watch a typical JGP! or many senior B events), it's only fair to distinguish the OK elements, which may look weak compared to the best elite examples, from the less-than-OK examples from competitors in the same event on the same ice.

And of course the number of very good elements deserving top GOEs will be higher at events of only elite skaters than at events of less accomplished senior, or junior skaters. Not to mention skaters below junior skill level who may be attempting the same elements (e.g., triple jumps or double axels, or level 4 spins).

Mathman · Oct 11, 2019

gkelly said:
But the official ISU scoring system is not just discussing top competitive skaters and needs to put those skaters in a broader context along with making fine distinctions among them.

No easy task. I actually think the ISU has done a pretty good job of it, all things considered.

The problem is most magnified, I think, in the PCS. The scale is necessarily spread out at the upper end and more and more squeezed together lower down. At the world championship level, skaters might get from 6's to 10, even though all of them are among the tiny handful of the best skaters in the world. For beginning competitions the range may be only from 2 to 3 for worst to best.

Edwin · Oct 12, 2019

Former doctor of Russian skaters told about the dangers of quadruple jumps

Sports doctor Natal'ya Chelnokova shared her opinion on the effect of quadruple jumps on the health of skaters. A correspondent of Lenta.ru spoke with the specialist.

According to Chelnokova, an increase in the number of quadruple jumps will lead to an increase in injuries. “Performing a jump with four revolutions, for a split second the athlete experiences a greater overload than an astronaut in orbit,” the doctor noted. According to the expert, at some point they will refuse to perform such jumps frequently.

“Maybe now I don’t hear about serious injuries, because just a little time has passed. Indeed, skaters in any case undergo dystrophic changes in tissues”, Chelnokova added.

Russian figure skater Aleksandra Trusova often demonstrates several quadruple jumps in her skating runs. She was the first in the history of women’s singles to complete the quad Toeloop as part of the official competition. Also, the 15-year-old Russian was the first to perform the quad Lutz.

Saturation of programs with complex quadruple jumps - for juniors and senior athletes - is one of the trends in modern figure skating. This, in particular, was expressed by former skater Polina Tsurskaya. She noted that she was forced to leave the sport because of the inability to train at full strength and perform similar elements.

Chelnokova - traumatologist-orthopedist of the Federal Research and Medical Center of FMBA of Russia. From 2011 to 2012, she worked as a sports doctor at the headquarters of the Russian national figure skating team.
-----
From: https://lenta.ru/news/2019/10/11/nenado/

Not very informative article, and in orbit, aren't cosmonauts in zero gravity?
The population and sample period is just too small for any accurate statistics yet, but perhaps after prolonged exposure to The Tutberidze Effect some useful data will be gathered?

Harriet · Oct 12, 2019

Edwin said:
in orbit, aren't cosmonauts in zero gravity?

While in orbit they are. Getting into orbit, IIRC they experience several times the gravitational force of Earth because of the acceleration needed to reach escape velocity. My physics education is decades past, though, so I might be misremembering some details!

Edwin · Oct 12, 2019

Harriet said:
While in orbit they are. Getting into orbit, IIRC they experience several times the gravitational force of Earth because of the acceleration needed to reach escape velocity. My physics education is decades past, though, so I might be misremembering some details!

You are right, the cosmonauts are lying flat on their backs during launch, because otherwise probably they won't survive the acceleration and shaking of their bodies by the craft, which is essentially propelled by a continuous explosion more or less controlled.

The only reference with have is gymnastics, both artistic and rhythmic, where young athletes are also sustained to repeated loads, extreme stretching and heavy pounding. But due to different surfaces and mats and different technique in landing from a height (up to 5 meters when dismounting from the bars) the amount and severity of injuries (both traumatic due to an accident (like at last WC) or due to long term participation) cannot really be compared.

Skaters seem more likely to favour one leg over the other, but have dystrophy due to unbalanced workloads even been measured accurately? I.e. both bone density and muscle mass?

Sugar Coated · Oct 12, 2019

Edwin said:
You are right, the cosmonauts are lying flat on their backs during launch, because otherwise probably they won't survive the acceleration and shaking of their bodies by the craft, which is essentially propelled by a continuous explosion more or less controlled.

The only reference with have is gymnastics, both artistic and rhythmic, where young athletes are also sustained to repeated loads, extreme stretching and heavy pounding. But due to different surfaces and mats and different technique in landing from a height (up to 5 meters when dismounting from the bars) the amount and severity of injuries (both traumatic due to an accident (like at last WC) or due to long term participation) cannot really be compared.

Skaters seem more likely to favour one leg over the other, but have dystrophy due to unbalanced workloads even been measured accurately? I.e. both bone density and muscle mass?

I tend to believe that if you are doing appropriate off ice training to “prehab” and strengthen muscles you can protect the joints. This should be combined with active rest and protections against over training. And perhaps even improvements in skates

Honestly the greater risk I see with forces during rotation are for potential concussions. I read somewhere that the spins and rotational forces can leave people with concussion symptoms due to the centripetal force of the brain pushing against the skull. That would be a much bigger concern if this is true but they’d need to do studies on it. And I actually think the spins may be worse than the jumps.

Elucidus · Oct 12, 2019

Edwin
Typical clickbaiter article from "fake news" category. Why are you bringing this here?
Whether there was real doctor's interview or not (which I really doubt) - it's real purpose is generate traffic for newspaper on the background of Trusova's feats :confused2: Don't help them to generate even more.
Also - there are at least two contradictions which clearly hints that the article can't be trustworthy and just mere opinions manipulation for creating certain narrative. First - she said that "a little time has passed" explaining why they have not enough statistical data. Which contradicts with the fact that the men jumps quads more then 20 years already - and that there are lots of retired skaters already to study for any possible consequences. Second - if she meant (and journalists implied it in article too) only ladies quads - it presents second contadiction: while there aren't any principal difference between men and women bones, tissues, ligaments etc. and effects of jumps on it (or at least studies which make that deduction in relation to different effects of repeated impacts on tissues of different sex) - it is implied that the reader would think that there is a difference strong enough to make a statements such as "they will refuse to perform such jumps" - despite that men didn't do it and are not going to :rolleye:

Edwin · Oct 13, 2019

How am I to know?
I'm always looking for interesting views on certain topics.

Next time I find a new resource, I'll run some key names through Google or Yandex and see what comes up, if the person writing the article or the persons mentioned do even exist at all and have the reputation or credibility needed and expected.

Regarding dystrophy and/or degeneration of tissue and bones, this has only been studied in gymnastics I believe, in relation to efforts to delay the onset of puberty in girl gymnasts, re the balance of testosterone and oestrogen and later chance of osteoporosis etc.
Also growth plate defects, hip displacement, scoliosis and such have been studied in gymnasts in greater depth.

Women and the Quad

readernick

lzxnl

Blacknight

jenaj

macy

gkelly

lzxnl

nussnacker

one and only

gkelly

nussnacker

one and only

gkelly

lzxnl

gkelly

Mathman

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Harriet

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Sugar Coated

Elucidus

Match Penalty

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Similar threads

Connect with us