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Thread: 2014-15 Japanese Nationals Mens SP

  1. #301
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    Yuzuru having two jumps in the second half, his quad and 3A getting high GOE, and better spins was what helped him get the lead. So I'm not too upset with Yuzuru's lead, however I do agree that Machida should have had a score where he's closer to Yuzuru's, b/c that SP was PERFECTION! Just wow, what an artist!

    Redemption at it's best! It's okay, Machida. You still have the FP. Go get your revenge!

  2. #302
    Tripping on the Podium Caustica's Avatar
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    I checked last year's PCS for Hanyu and Machida (they were at the same placements after SP) and the gap has in fact lessened! (As it should have because Hanyu had a messy lutz/doubled toe.)

    This year: Hanyu 45.60, Machida 42.00
    Last year: Hanyu 46.90, Machida 42.40

    I don't believe PCS is awarded based on the actual skate anyway. Both of them had lower PCS and TES than last year (non-sequitur; random point).
    Last edited by Caustica; 12-26-2014 at 02:48 PM.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Sooo sad for Taka... Hope he skates much better in the free tomorrow.
    He skated his SP just fine, the best as far as I'm concerned - beautiful program beautifully skated. Hope he jumps much better in the free tomorrow.

  4. #304
    Bona Fide Member deedee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    He skated his SP just fine, the best as far as I'm concerned - beautiful program beautifully skated. Hope he jumps much better in the free tomorrow.
    You're absolutely right. He did skate it so beautifully. Thanks for correcting me, SkateFiguring.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caustica View Post
    I checked last year's PCS for Hanyu and Machida (they were at the same placements after SP) and the gap has in fact lessened! (As it should have because Hanyu had a fall.)

    This year: Hanyu 45.60, Machida 42.00
    Last year: Hanyu 46.90, Machida 42.40

    I don't believe PCS is awarded based on the actual skate anyway. Both of them had lower PCS and TES than last year (non-sequitur; random point).
    ?? Hanyu had a tilted triple lutz with a messy landing but was still able to add a double toe loop in combination. He did not fall. Are you thinking of his SP at GPF?

  6. #306
    Tripping on the Podium Caustica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merleice View Post
    ?? Hanyu had a tilted triple lutz with a messy landing but was still able to add a double toe loop in combination. He did not fall. Are you thinking of his SP at GPF?
    Oops that is what I meant. :P Sorry it is late haha. Anyway I'll edit the post and the PCS comparison remains.

  7. #307
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    Machida is really mesmerizing. They lowballed him big time here. The same skate would score at least 4 more points, probably more as the season progresses.
    Hanyu is probably just right. If he's clean, he should be looking at 100+. That 4T and 3A are worthy of +3 across the board.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu's wasn't cautious... It was understated with lots of complexity.

    However to me Machida put his heart out there and Hanyu made a visible error. If Machida did indeed UR his 4T-3T combo that's still not as bad as Hanyu's lutz 3-2.

    A case can be made for Machida very slightly leading but IMO Hanyu's 4-point lead over Machida is too large. As mentioned, I'd raise Machida's and lower Hanyu's with Hanyu leading 92.5-93 points to Machida with 91-92 points.
    So much armchair judging on this thread...

    Were you people in the arena or just watching on Youtube? How on earth can you judge scores based on that? Can't we just enjoy the skating without constantly bickering and complaining about who scored what?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvia451 View Post
    I look at Machida's SS and IN marks and I can say I really don't understand figure skating at all
    The low IN mark was probably because the judges are not in his corner. If you watch his step sequence, you can see that he is not only relatively slow (which doesn't bother me) but truly does have some weaknesses in basic skating. He executes several elements that are supposed to happen on a deep curve, and during those elements he either doesn't skate on a curve at all or only skates on a very shallow curve. He can get deep knee bend, but the knee action is not very smooth. The turning in his twizzles is also uneven and relatively slow.

    Compare his step sequence to Shoma's step sequence at this competition or to Mao's step sequence in her "Ladies in Lavender" program from 2007/2008 Nationals. Even though the latter has a lot of unnecessary bracket turns which do not showcase any edge quality or add much to the step sequence, it still demonstrates a greater variety of and mastery of turns and knee bend and, at the end of the sequence, edges. Or just look at the difference between Shoma and Mao's loop turns and Tatsuki's loop turn. A lot of the problems are already apparent there.

    If we add together all the parts of PCS, then I still feel that Tatsuki is the strongest, especially in Choreography and Interpretation. Thus I agree with those who say he was underscored in PCS. I also have some sentimental bias towards him because he tries really hard to improve his skating and he gives his all to the performance. I hope he has a great FS tomorrow.

  10. #310
    Gold for the Winter Prince! demarinis5's Avatar
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    I just finished watching the men, thrilled about Shoma's placement! Great skating from the top four!

    Taka is still struggling, hope that his FS will be better.
    Last edited by demarinis5; 12-26-2014 at 05:35 PM.

  11. #311
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    Well, after spending this afternoon watching a really disappointing Mens FS in the Russian Nationals I was gobsmacked by the quality of the top Japanese boys. The top four should all be allowed to go to Worlds (if only!!!).

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by xabia View Post
    Well, after spending this afternoon watching a really disappointing Mens FS in the Russian Nationals I was gobsmacked by the quality of the top Japanese boys. The top four should all be allowed to go to Worlds (if only!!!).
    USA wishes Murakami Daisuke had stayed ...I know he wanted to skate for Japan and I think his courage to go against this field is AMAZING...but he could lose a chance to go to worlds that he could get much more easily in the US.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbiespectator View Post
    USA wishes Murakami Daisuke had stayed ...I know he wanted to skate for Japan and I think his courage to go against this field is AMAZING...but he could lose a chance to go to worlds that he could get much more easily in the US.

    He could have been even going for US national title

  14. #314
    Bona Fide Member silverfoxes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    He could have been even going for US national title
    And I think he could win it without much trouble, considering the current field.

    Hope he makes the podium here...the more I watch him, the more I like him. Shoma still leaves me cold, although I can't dispute that he is technically very good.

    So happy that Tatsuki is in better form now!

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbiespectator View Post
    USA wishes Murakami Daisuke had stayed ...I know he wanted to skate for Japan and I think his courage to go against this field is AMAZING...but he could lose a chance to go to worlds that he could get much more easily in the US.
    ... but maybe, MAYBE, he wouldn't be this good if he hadn't competed for Japan? Maybe this amazing field had shaped him because you know what they say.. in Japan he constantly goes against great rivals that in the end pushes him to do better.. who knows..

  16. #316
    Tripping on the Podium Perdita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BounceAround View Post
    The low IN mark was probably because the judges are not in his corner. If you watch his step sequence, you can see that he is not only relatively slow (which doesn't bother me) but truly does have some weaknesses in basic skating. He executes several elements that are supposed to happen on a deep curve, and during those elements he either doesn't skate on a curve at all or only skates on a very shallow curve. He can get deep knee bend, but the knee action is not very smooth. The turning in his twizzles is also uneven and relatively slow.

    Compare his step sequence to Shoma's step sequence at this competition or to Mao's step sequence in her "Ladies in Lavender" program from 2007/2008 Nationals. Even though the latter has a lot of unnecessary bracket turns which do not showcase any edge quality or add much to the step sequence, it still demonstrates a greater variety of and mastery of turns and knee bend and, at the end of the sequence, edges. Or just look at the difference between Shoma and Mao's loop turns and Tatsuki's loop turn. A lot of the problems are already apparent there.

    If we add together all the parts of PCS, then I still feel that Tatsuki is the strongest, especially in Choreography and Interpretation. Thus I agree with those who say he was underscored in PCS. I also have some sentimental bias towards him because he tries really hard to improve his skating and he gives his all to the performance. I hope he has a great FS tomorrow.
    Totally agree.

    Also, those who are wondering about levels should count the revolutions of the positions of spins and no. of turns and steps during step sequences as well. Tatsuki and Yuzuru, they both normally have just 3 revolutions for difficult positions in spins. So a little shortage of revolutions can make them degraded.

    About PCS, I actually think that Machida can be lower than Yuzuru. I know that Machida's choreography is beautiful, and I love the way he commit himself to such expressions, but I'm not sure whether most of his upper body movements are related to skating. Also his edges are not as deep as Yuzuru's. In Yuzuru's skating, though his arm movements and posture are poorly done compared to Tatsuki, but in terms of skating I think his better. I can see his body constantly feeling the edges and centrifugal force coming out of skating (which was much much better in GPF though). After all, this is not an artistic show but a sport regarding skating.

    And I'm just being an armchair judge as well But at least I'm trying to understand the judges.
    If this sport is sad, it's not because the judges are wrong (sometimes they are indeed wrong though) but because the fans think that they are wrong while the fans don't even try to understand them.

    I don't mean to criticize those who are skeptical about judging, rather I want to encourage them to take this as a chance to start studying judging
    Because that's how I started
    Last edited by Perdita; 12-26-2014 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #317
    Medalist MIM's Avatar
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    Omg!!! I got my prediction 100% correct from the 1st to the 6th!!!
    I know it is only so and will not stay the same after fp, but this is the closest I got.

    Loved Yuzu's 4t, kozuka's skating, shoma's placement, mura's 3a and attack, and machida's redemption!
    Did not like yuzu's arm movements.

  18. #318
    Bona Fide Member ioanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perdita View Post
    About PCS, I actually think that Machida can be lower than Yuzuru. I know that Machida's choreography is beautiful, and I love the way he commit himself to such expressions, but I'm not sure whether most of his upper body movements are related to skating. Also his edges are not as deep as Yuzuru's. In Yuzuru's skating, though his arm movements and posture are poorly done compared to Tatsuki, but in terms of skating I think his better. I can see his body constantly feeling the edges and centrifugal force coming out of skating (which was much much better in GPF though). After all, this is not an artistic show but a sport regarding skating.
    I think most posters here agreed on the fact that Machida and Hanyu's PCS should have been closer, not that Machida should have scored higher. A difference of 2 points should have been enough, because Hanyu is not that much better than Machida overall. But the standings right now are how they should be so all is good.

    And how can we not be skeptical about judging if you have Takahiko Kozuka competing here and he didn't get the highest mark in SS?
    Last edited by ioanna; 12-27-2014 at 04:13 AM.

  19. #319
    Tripping on the Podium Perdita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioanap View Post
    I think most posters here agreed on the fact that Machida and Hanyu's PCS should have been closer, not that Machida should have scored higher. A difference of 2 points should have been enough, because Hanyu is not that much better than Machida overall. But the standings right now are how they should be so all is good.

    And how can we not be skeptical about judging if you have Takahiko Kozuka competing here and he didn't get the highest mark in SS?
    I'm sorry I didn't realize your post until now.
    I reread my post and I realized that I was a bit too aggressive that night. It's an excuse but someone's post saying figure skating is a sad sport made me very sad and I just couldn't help. I can't hide the fact that I am a Yuzuru fan, but when I write about judging issues, I don't mean to defend my fav but I really wanna defend this sport (though figure skating indeed has judging problems like any other sports).

    And, yes, I got your point. To me, 3.60 points difference was quite just regarding Yuzuru's good edge control during spins, and before/after each elements, but I would refrain from such argument here because it's heartbreaking to compare Tatsuki's brilliant performance of his life to others and talk about how he could have improved when we are still in a big sorrow of his retirement

    Kozuka's skating is just incredible, of course I think that Yuzuru and Orser really know well how to appeal to judges, and if Kozuka can show his brilliance of skating with connection to jump or other elements and then I believe he really will get the highest. I believe it's not that far as his jumps seem to become consistent now.

    Thank you for replying and sorry that my reply became late

  20. #320
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    http://www.jsfresults.com/National/2...l/data0103.pdf
    Here are the scores.

    Hanyu's elements were beautifully done --except the 3lz but this time without a fall.

    Looking at Machida's PCS, he really seemed to be held down in transitions--of all things! He had excellent transitions in the SP so I agree with those who say he was under marked.

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