US teams for 2015 Worlds and 4CCs

tulosai said:

I know this isn't your main point but I don't think Suzuki and Ceasario are in the same league, so much so that the comparison doesn't work for me. It would take a TRUE implosion from Gracie for Sam to be able to beat her. It only took a few errors from Mao, at times, for Suzuki to beat her. While I think Suzuki was one of the most underrated skaters of all time and so I can't say she was always a medal threat at every competition, I think it is fair to say she was a medal threat at every competition but Worlds that she entered (and she even did eek out her one World medal). Sam winning the kind of medals Suzuki did, at this time, is absolutely unthinkable. And I am a fan of Sam.

(Please note I am talking about the last years of Suzuki's career. She was obviously a late bloomer and a lot of this would not hold up in her early career, which I know)

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gravy said:

I'm just on the Cesario train this season because her programs fit her. Gold needs to bring her HBIC persona out and own the ice with music she actually likes. These programs aren't doing it for me, which is sad because her jumps are out of this world and her basic skating skills as well as her spins are fantastic. With better packaging she could be much more incredible than she is now.

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Mrs. P said:

Suzuki, FWIW, made humongous improvements in those last few years, including working on her flutz (which was somewhat successful; she often ended up popping the jump, but she ended up with a few ratified triple lutes), adding a consistent 3-3, which she didn't have during the 2009-2010 season and just working on her basic skating. Also Mao Asada also was inconsistent due to reworking her entire technique during the 2011-2014 quad, allowing Akiko to sneak in and get a few wins against her.

I too think Sam can make some big improvements in the years to come, but Gracie isn't reworking her technique, so there isn't really a huge window for her to beat her.

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inside edges said:

Again, I don't think Cesario was robbed of the bronze medal at SA from Gracie because of her uncalled flutz at SP and only attention mark given to her Free program. I'm not sure why flutz is treated generously than lip with which Gracie has been struggling. If her SA performances had been correctly judged like the TEB judges did, she might've been placed around 7th, not 3rd place at SA. That is why I brought up her placement at her other Grand Prix assignment. Besides, the conspiracy theory is unreasonable as supposed that Cesario is currently a big threat to Gracie. I understand you root for Cesario but she is a substitute for Ashley, so if I were you, I would be really satisfied with her joining into the 4CC team.

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Sandpiper said:

While you're correct that Cesario can't beat Gold without an implosion... How could you say Cesario was overscored at SA when Gold was even more overscored? She received the highest PCS of the night with that lackluster LP. She also received the second-highest PCS in the SP, with a botched spin, ahead of a perfect Elena Radionova.

Granted, I've stated multiple times that Gracie's huge LP PCS was to make for the stupid Zayak rule that killed her TES, and she did deserve the bronze. But there's absolutely no evidence of the judges trying to hold up Cesario. If they wanted to do that, they could've easily given her bronze just by giving Gold the correct PCS/handing out generous levels to Cesario (who might've had her flutz overlooked, but received very poor lvels). Gold's Zayak would do the rest of the work.

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CanadianSkaterGuy said:

It hardly killed her TES. That combo was worth less than 4 points, and she missed silver by 10 points. She certainly didn't deserve 63 PCS at SA. She did deserve bronze, but turning two triples to doubles, a flawed second lutz, a lip... that wasn't worthy of the highest PCS when Radionova skated cleanly with wayyy higher difficulty, and greater transitions in her choreo.

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Sandpiper said:

While you're correct that Cesario can't beat Gold without an implosion... How could you say Cesario was overscored at SA when Gold was even more overscored? She received the highest PCS of the night with that lackluster LP. She also received the second-highest PCS in the SP, with a botched spin, ahead of a perfect Elena Radionova.

Granted, I've stated multiple times that Gracie's huge LP PCS was to make for the stupid Zayak rule that killed her TES, and she did deserve the bronze. But there's absolutely no evidence of the judges trying to hold up Cesario. If they wanted to do that, they could've easily given her bronze just by giving Gold the correct PCS/handing out generous levels to Cesario (who might've had her flutz overlooked, but received very poor lvels). Gold's Zayak would do the rest of the work.

Have you considered that Cesario came in fourth at SA because she skated better than she did at TEB, and her opponents skated worse? Who were those three people you would've placed ahead of her at SA? Soyoun with a bad SP and a downgraded fall in the LP? Mirai with possibly the worst SP of the GP circuit, and numerous tech issues of her own in both programs? Elene Gedevanishvili? :scratch:

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inside edges said:

I'm saying the top three placement at SA is correct, so Cesario was NOT robbed or WILL be robbed by the USFS's favoritism as somebody claimed above. In my eyes, the SA judges were much lenient about flutz than lip which hit Gracie's TES scores while Cesario was not, so it is not fair to just focus on Gracie's flaws. As you and I talked about Cesario's LP and artistry in another thread, I quite don't understand all hypes about her artistry, so if there is an argument that Cesario should've been awarded the third highest PCS scores over Gracie at SA, I don't think so due to the generous judging on Cesario's edges, slow speed and more. Her placement at TEB is a comparison if the judges go by the rule strictly, perhaps her 4th place at SA could've been in danger. Her PCS scores at TEB were even lower than Courtney!

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Sandpiper said:

I didn't say Gold deserved lower PCS than Cesario (though I think Cesario should've beaten Gold in some categories, like P/E and INT, considering Gold's mistakes and lackluster interpretation). But Gold having higher PCS than Radionova for that SP + LP was ridiculous. And there's no way Cesario would've finished seventh at SA "like TEB" as you said. Maybe behind Park in the LP, but definitely not behind Nagasu or Gedevanishvili (unless the judges went insane).

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inside edges said:

I did not explicitly said Cesario would've end up to 7th place just like she did at TEB. However since one's PCS follows TES, it would be possible that her placement at SA could not be the 4th finish depending on the judges' scrutiny, so Cesario never could've reached the bronze. That is my main point. As for Radionova's PCS, you'll find how I evaluate Radionova at the thread of our wishes for medalists at Euros that you started. Gracie's reputation beat Radionova, maybe, but we've seen Yulia's PCS scores at CoC, so I'm not going further.

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Sandpiper said:

Gold's SA PCS from SP + LP combined: 93.73
Cesario's SA PCS from SP + LP combined: 84.57
Difference of 9.16.

Gold beat Cesario overall by about 5 points. So Cesario would not need higher PCS than Gold to win. All she'd need is for Gold to be a few points below the Russians in both SP and LP, which would actually be better PCS scoring than what actually happened. However, I also think Gold should've gotten a few points for her Zayaked 2S-2T-2T instead of nothing, and Cesario should've gotten some kind of call on her lutz in the SP (as you noted). Therefore, I agree with Gold's bronze overall. But with a lenient tech panel and judges who aren't so generous to Gold in PCS, Cesario "could've reached" bronze, if you want to use those terms. And she certainly wouldn't have finished seventh, no matter how you score it.

Whether you like Elena or not, she outperformed Gracie at SA in every way. (Not sure how Yulia at CoC is relevant? "Yulia got overscored so Gracie should too!"?)

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LiamForeman said:

I'm sorry but I'm getting middle aged. HBIC? Hebrew Biyatch in Chains? I have no idea what you are saying. I have seven year old nieces that I want to communicate with. Help me out, okay?

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inside edges said:

Radionova did better than Gracie at SA for sure regardless of what I generally think of her, but said the above because I didn't want to invite more engaging parties on this derailing topic. The Skate America competition was held in the US of America, so a reputation factor may affect the American Gracie's PCS over the Russian girls (not solely to Radionova). Such things happen in all Grand Prix series. However, it is an unwarranted clam that the compatriot, Cesario was sacrificed to make Gracie a bronze medalist by the USFS just because Cesario gave a good impression to many of the public instead of Gracie. I admit Yulia at CoC is not a suitable example for the comparison and also didn't realize that the score gap between the 4 to 7th finishers at SA (4th vs 5th and 6th vs 7th are respectively tight) is not like the one at TEB, so Cesario could've not been 7th (although "around 7th" meant 5, 6, 7th, not specifically 7th! in my book) even if her flutz had been punished severally on TES-wise. Satisfied now?

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tulosai said:

I know this isn't your main point but I don't think Suzuki and Ceasario are in the same league, so much so that the comparison doesn't work for me. It would take a TRUE implosion from Gracie for Sam to be able to beat her. It only took a few errors from Mao, at times, for Suzuki to beat her. While I think Suzuki was one of the most underrated skaters of all time and so I can't say she was always a medal threat at every competition, I think it is fair to say she was a medal threat at every competition but Worlds that she entered (and she even did eek out her one World medal). Sam winning the kind of medals Suzuki did, at this time, is absolutely unthinkable. And I am a fan of Sam.

(Please note I am talking about the last years of Suzuki's career. She was obviously a late bloomer and a lot of this would not hold up in her early career, which I know)

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tulosai said:

I was also surprised/happy to see this though I feel a little bad for H/D if they wanted to go. They also need more opportunities in front of international judges still, I feel. Oh well. The heartbreak of having many great teams

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cocofeliz said:

The bronze for Hubbel and Donohue was well deserved and we have to give them chance to improve even more next year. They have been struggling with injuries and their season this year was delayed due to lack of training way into the fall. People forget that they were the 4CC winners last year and beat even Gilles/Poirier there. I think without the injury, they really would have challenged the Shibutanis for the silver medal here. Let's give them some time. I am personally torn myself because I liked the clean/smooth/fast performance of Hawayek and Baker but let's please let the teams prove themselves on their own instead of predicting their demise so early.....

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