Marshall's as seen on TV | Golden Skate

Marshall's as seen on TV

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I thought someone would have started this thread sooner than I.

I missed all the guys except Michael. I'm sure there was nothing special about what I missed.

The Ladies, however, I found to be quite good and better than I expec tyed.

MK continues to show more speed and energy.
Irina is getting back in form. She will be fine for Moscow.
Shizuka skated with much more flare than she did in Dortmund but that may be why she lacked her technical perfection.

Sasha, indeed it was her night. It was more or less the same as she skated in the Qualifying Round in Dortmund. Loved it!!
Now those fans who were complaining about Robin's revised choreography.....do you still believe TT's was better?

Miki Ando is quite a jumper and covers the ice well with speed and energy. She could be ready in 2006.

Joee
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Joe, I didn't get much out of Sasha's program live, and I liked it less on TV. The costume didn't suit her and the program was empty. BUT the program did what it needed to do. Sasha was able to skate it without error. But 'it didn't sing.' Now her Malaguena at World's, that sang. And her edges going into the flip and lutz were not as good as at world's.

IMO, Irina had the most audience pleasing skate of the evening.
I like that wild sequence across the middle of the rink 3s/2R/onehalfR/2S. THe card dealing bit doesn't quite work, but the rest of the show is great. She landed, what, 6 triples? Does anyone have any idea whether this is a sequence or a combo in COP? I hear Irina is keeping the program for next year, and I like the program, but I wonder whether this is going to get the points it deserves.

And I saw something or other in Michelle's Tosca that I hadn't seen before. More feeling for the music? More enthusiasm? A little more choreo? Certainly there was a top notch 3t again, a jump that she did poorly all last year. But she needs to get that new lutz entry down. It has tripped her up on the 2nd lutz 3 times running. I wonder whether with the extra speed she isn't getting a little fatigued by the end of the program. I'm glad that she is committing to work as soon as touring stops. I wonder whether she will try out the hinged boots to work on 3/3's?

Shizuka had a good skate, but her Dortmund performance was better, I thought.

Oh dear, we had Swan Lake, Turandot and Tosca all year. It is time to get some new music girls.

I didn't know that Jenny's Aunt died at the start of world's. How sad for her, she can't buy a break. What courage, though to skate the whole 3 performances.

Plush and Joubert both had good performances.

And what was that Dick said about Miki's fall? A fizzle in her shinizzle? What's with that! A new Dickism.
 

Longhornliz

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
I disagree that sasha's program was empty. It may not have been as completely jam packed as other versions earlier in the season, but it still had many more subtle elements than other skaters are putting into their programs. For example Irina, so glad to see her getting back into her groove again but her programs are so weighted with jump content that she doesnt take the time to hit equisite por de bras in her mitf or inbetweens.

I'm not saying she isnt a wonderful skater both technically and artistically... but what sasha excells at is fantastic near perfect positioning and body line and although they are aesthetic this strength would actually be attributed to the technical mark because it has to do with correct form and technique.
 

sarahmistral

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
simply amazing...

Sasha, that is! It was great to see Irina improving, and I really enjoyed the concept and presentation of the program, one of her better ones musically, as well as her jumping.

But back to Sasha;) In an interview with Robin Wagner, Robin mentioned that she was teaching Sasha to view and approach a program as an entire performance rather than as a series of elements, and I feel that came shining through in Providence. I think that Sasha has a combination of talent and skill (those jumps, spins, and flow across the ice looked great; it's not just talent anymore, hasn't been in a while--a lot of hard work went into that, and we shouldn't forget it) that can make bare bones choreography look great when she puts her heart and soul into performing it, rather than just skating it to avoid misses. Your point is well taken, Joe, about the skater looking better than if s/he has a busily choreographed program to get through. Personally, I'd L:love:VE to see Sasha work with Sandra Bezic, who choreographed that gem for Lu Chen in 96. How did you feel about Sarah's more busy programs as choreographed by Robin?

And rather than discount the "cheesefest" victory, I look at it as an opportunity for her to show what she's capable of; every run-through before an audience is a step towards from coaxing her potential, nerve-free greatness out of practice. I applaud her for pointing out, while under the scrutiny of the post-skate interview, that sometimes we're perfect, sometimes we make mistakes because WE'RE HUMAN. You tell 'em, Sash! She CAN DO it; seven gorgeous triples, three doubles (2T, 2T in combination + 2A) and heartfelt, exquisite artistry; it's just nerves, and Robin's really working miracles on her, no doubt about it.

Shizuka caresses the ice so beautifully, and I think the lighting and the filming of this competition really brought out a different aspect from what we saw from Dortmund; I can't put my finger on it, but the skaters' strengths and weaknesses seemed more exposed somehow. Anyway, Shizza was great with mistakes, to be expected after the ultimate high only a few weeks ago. There's got to be some unwinding, some letdown, or else she'd explode:)

Michelle's Tosca, the program, has not been my cup of tea, but I admire the improvements I see in her skating, particularly in the added height she's been getting in her jumps. There are some exciting years ahead in competitive figure skating; it's positively tantalizing, and I do hope Michelle stays in the mix, as well as all the ladies at this cheesefest...and there's Yukina waiting in the wings...and Cynthia and Joannie...and Vika...and Ye! Bin! Mok! :laugh:

Evgeni's program, though not flawless, mesmerized me; that music fits him like a glove, and when he "steps into" it, it brings the following adjectives to mind: serene, deliberate, commanding, composed...lovely.

Brian's performance showed me a bit more of what he's about, and he's definitely capable of pulling off the Olympic win he's always going on about, ambitious, driven, gorgeous jumps, and his program really showed off his strengths. I can't get over a physical trait of his, and this sounds horribly petty and I hate myself for saying it, but it really is related to my enjoyment of his skating. What? You're all asking, Brian's pure beefcake! :) Well, he is, but his arms just look stubby to me, not flowing with his choreography at all. Forgive me, skating fans and skating gods, for being mean, but I just want more 'arm flow' from him...but his presentation was energetic, dynamic, and his jumps were powerful, and his music suited him well.

Dick really hit it on the head about Johnny: he skates as if he's in his room in the dark, for himself, pretty introspective, which is a shame, because he's exquisite.

Missed Stephane Lambiel:cry::cry: Wish he'd been there, and Eman:love:

Sarah
 

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Marshall's

I missed much of the competition due to the NBA game. :cry: However--

Ladies

Sasha: I do not like the new bare version of SL, but there can be no doubt that Sasha performed the best LP then I have ever seen from her. Wagner might not be a great choreographer but I can see her strategy -- for the 6.0 system, the program did what it needed to do. Sasha's positions are just like no one else's.

Shizuka: A strong and solid performance. She did have the two-footed landing on the 3flip. Not the sky-high skate she gave in Dortmund, but I think this performance shows she has the power to consistently place in the top 3.

Michelle: Great energy, speed, emotion, technique and beautiful basics, every move she did looked textbook except unfortunately for the two jump mistakes. The 2axel was a fluke, but she has been having problems with the second 3lutz for some time. But I really like the continued improvement I see in her overall skating. She needs better choreography.

Miki: The polish in her presentation just isn't there yet, but I found this performance more artistically pleasing than her Worlds LP. Good for her on the almost-quad. Her potential is clear. That fall scared the crap out of me though, it was almost as bad as Kostner in Dortmund.

Jenny: That is really horrible about her aunt. Nevertheless, this program just isn't her style and she didn't skate it well. I thought Peggy really hit the nail on the head -- she needs a program that suits her better and will inspire her to feel the music. Her Chicago SP was a big step in that direction, I hope next year she can do the same with the LP.

Men

Plushenko: I'm not a big fan of Plush, but Nijinsky is my favorite LP from him. The style and choreography are well suited to him and he performs the hell out of it. The program fit together beautifully as a cohesive whole. He's made definite strides in his overall skating and is still the one to beat.

Brian: Beautiful jumps and several nice spins but his choreography and presentation are not yet a match for Evgeny. I say that even though I prefer Brian overall. Evgeny and Johnny have a their own unique style, I don't yet see this in Brian. Hopefully it will come.

Johnny: Johnny has a really wonderful artistic style and great technique, but I would like to see a little more excitement/emotion in his skating. Perhaps it will come with time, all this is still new for him. Some touring might help him learn to relate to the audience more. I think his potential is tremendous. Some skaters -- Kwan and Cohen among them -- just have a special way of moving that makes them stand out. I see this same quality in Johnny which is rare in the quad-happy ranks of most male skaters. Now he just needs to develop it more and add a quad -- a high order, but I think he has the talent to do it.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Did anyone else think that Michelle was connecting more with the music than she has the rest of this season?
 

BittyBug

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Yes (about Kwan relating to the music), although I didn't feel that way when I saw the performance live.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Doris - Definitely, MK is becoming a big interpreter of Puccini. It takes a while for MK to get into a role. For some reason her SPs are right on but the LPs always look like she's not quite there yet. Two LPs I would like her to re-do Miraculous Manderin and Sheherazade.

MK is very musical and she now has the maturity to put something extra into music and not just the obvious.

Again, I agree her Tosca has come a long way since Campbells.

Joe
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think everyone was happy for Sasha but the people around me still weren't blown away. TT's version with 7 triples would blow the roof off and yes it's much better than Robin's version. The comparison isn't even close.

Happy for her skate. Like she said everyone is human. She tries all the time but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
 

Enero

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Sasha, what can I say, her skate was beautiful, even with the "watered down" choregraphy. I was so happy to see her skate perfect, and there seems to be a change in her skating, more confidence and enjoyment on the ice. I can't wait for next season to see if the partnership with Robin continues to work wonders.

Miki Ando - Wow, her technical ability is amazing! But her presentation left something to be desired. I couldn't believe that Leanne Miller choregraphed her program. There was nothing in it. :laugh: I think if she improves on her presentation though, she'll be nearly unbeatable.

I thought Irina skated wonderfully. IMO, she should've finished higher than she did. I didn't really like the music of the program, but I was so happy to see her on the ice and I thought her choregraphy and jumps were good.

I still don't like Michelle's Tosca. It's great music and I thought she could've done more with the choregraphy. I was impressed with her speed and the power in her jumps. There's no doubt the added speed and height will help her regain the 3/3's she need. It's going to be interesting to see what she does next season. It's obvious the judges still love her presentation. So I think if she puts the jumps together, she may be unbeatable again.

Arakawa was clean, but she didn't have the fire of her World's skate. I can't wait to see what TT does with her skating. She too will be a force next season.

Like someone said on another board, the ladies field is so deep. I think it's going to be anybody's game next season. I'm totally siked about it! :laugh: It should prove to be one of the most entertaining skating seasons ever.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Some things I found ridiculous: US and Canadian judges putting Michelle ahead of Shizuka; Russian judge doing he same for Irina. When Dick was saying how it's difficult for Michelle to compete with young skaters, I wanted to remind him that Shizuka, too, can buy a drink in US.
 

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Ando -- But her presentation left something to be desired. I couldn't believe that Leanne Miller choregraphed her program. There was nothing in it.
I actually thought the program was nicely choreographed. The problem, IMO, is that Ando's presentation skills are not developed enough to handle the choreography. Ando attempted a split jump/3loop, but she lost her balance after the split jump and took a terrible fall on the loop. So I see the attempt to mesh the jumps into the choreography, but perhaps she isn't ready for this.
 
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registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Ptichka said:
Some things I found ridiculous: US and Canadian judges putting Michelle ahead of Shizuka; Russian judge doing he same for Irina. When Dick was saying how it's difficult for Michelle to compete with young skaters, I wanted to remind him that Shizuka, too, can buy a drink in US.

:laugh: That was really funny, Ptichka!

Now, not to nit-pick, but Arakawa two-footed something (her flip, I think). I know that with Cohen we'd forever be reminded about her not skating cleanly, so let's keep the record straight for ALL skaters.
 

Kasey

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Sasha....Loved the new costume...didn't love the "new" program. Her spins, I think, are the best of any woman (and I don't like Sasha, so that is meaningful coming from me!), but it seemed the watered down routine was a little TOO watered. I can understand helping her to have a perfect program, technically....but even the straight line footwork seemed slow and blah to me. Glad she ends with such strong spins, and not her footwork.

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much what everone else said...

Kasey
 

IDLERACER

Medalist
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
All six ladies skated well. That fall that Ando took near the end of her program was right up there with the worst of Maria Butyrskaya's many tumbles. I'm surprised that she didn't break something, and was able to keep smiling.
Irina blew me away. It's great to see her at the top of her game again. When she skates clean, there's no one more entertaining.
 

bronxgirl

Medalist
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I've always felt that when Irina and Michelle were skating their best at the real competitions (eg Worlds, Olys), they bring out the best in each other.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Joesitz said:
I thought someone would have started this thread sooner than I.

I missed all the guys except Michael. I'm sure there was nothing special about what I missed.

The Ladies, however, I found to be quite good and better than I expec tyed.

MK continues to show more speed and energy.
Irina is getting back in form. She will be fine for Moscow.
Shizuka skated with much more flare than she did in Dortmund but that may be why she lacked her technical perfection.

Sasha, indeed it was her night. It was more or less the same as she skated in the Qualifying Round in Dortmund. Loved it!!
Now those fans who were complaining about Robin's revised choreography.....do you still believe TT's was better?

Miki Ando is quite a jumper and covers the ice well with speed and energy. She could be ready in 2006.

Joe
I think the delay in posting was due to it being Mother's Day. As Jenny so heartbreakingly reminded us, Moms come before skating. As others have said, that poor girl. With many cancers being "beaten," especially if caught early, sometimes it's easy to forget that there are still whole families descimated by this disease. I think we'd all agree that Jenny deserves a gold medal in courage.

As for the gauntlet you have thrown down, "Now those fans who were complaining about Robin's revised choreography......do you still believe TT's was better?" Since I was one of the most vocal against RW's "Swan Lake" (I called it "Swan Puddle" after Worlds) and was a big fan of TAT's version, all six of them, if you count the RW supervised version of TAT's at Nationals, I will speak to this--or hang my butt out the window, whichever you prefer;).

The most important things first: Sasha's costume (same as Worlds). So Sasha's new swan costume was done by some hoity-toity designer. Hmm. Obviously it is someone not familiar with how costumes show up on the ice nor on the ice and TV. I thought the black and white costume for TAT's version was a gorgeous costume and also really told the story of "Swan Lake" by using that one simple color technique. However, I could have liked a non black-and-white costume, just not this one. But it seemed they shortened the skirt slightly or did some refitting because it didn't look as dumpy on Sasha at Marshall's. Or else I was just over the shock. And not to pick on Sasha's designer. Vera Wang has done some bombs too, IMO. Jef Billings of SOI looks like he won't have as much SOI work next year. Now that guy knows how to put a skating costume together. He did Sarah's for the Olympics. Let's leave the designers to the runway and people like Billings to the ice, I say. BTW, I still think Shizza's costume was da bomb this season. Forgetting the World's wedgie, I thought the cut was gorgeous and the silver sequins just perfect. Somebody else said it looked like the Chrysler Building and ITA. Great architecture for the building and for Shizuka.

Onto "Swan Lake": TAT vs. WAG. Since I've gotten over the shock of what WAG did to TAT's version of "SL" and seeing Sasha skate it well, I have to give WAG's version a lot more credit. Last night I compared TAT's "SL" from Trophee Lalique--the best TAT version, IMO--to WAG's version with Sasha's crummy skate at Worlds to WAG's version with Sasha's good performance at Marshall's. Someone who was at Dortmund, Hockeyfan, said he felt WAG's version utilized ice coverage better than TAT's, that WAG's excelled in using different kinds of stroking, and that s/he felt the program built to a climax better. After doing my comparison last night, ITA. I can't tell ice coverage from TV, but variety of stroking, yes, and better build to climax, yes.

Also, when I watched TAT's version from Trophee Lalique, which was skated well--just a hand down on the 2Axel and a two-foot on a jump late in the program--and compared it to a good skate of WAG's version, I surprised the hell out of myself to find myself not as "for" TAT's version and "against" WAG's as I had thought just a month ago when I looked at them both right after Worlds. I think where TAT's version excelled and why I loved it so much is that it was more like DANCE choreography than competitive singles SKATING choreography and because of that, it had an especially unusual and captivating look. And although I was impressed with how "chuggy jam" it was with choreography and difficulty, I think TAT's version may have been too much so in that because of the glide and speed of skating, your eye needs more time to register movement than it does for dance. I do still love TAT's version, especially the one done at Lalique. But the choreography has to fit the skater and I think that for Sasha, there was too much choreography and difficult skating moves for Sasha's personality to come through. I felt the same way about Lori Nichol's "Song of the Black Swan" for Michelle. No, I'm not trying to bring Michelle in here for no reason, lol. I'm using it because most know it and I think it makes a good comparison for the point I'm trying to make. Besides, there are programs for other skaters I feel didn't fit the skater or got too busy--or too simple. To use a cliche, it's a delicate balance. With SOTBS, IMO, there was too much choreography that Michelle couldn't really get on top of, even at Worlds. It looked to me like Michelle was skating a race to finish the program rather than alternating tough skating and choreography with periods of expression. When I looked back at Sasha doing TAT/SL at Lalique, even though I loved the choreographic in-betweens and difficulty (eg, three combo spins), the overall impression when I looked at it after having seen Sasha do a good skate of WAG/SL was that with TAT/SL at Lalique, Sasha was doing a megathalon skate the way track-and-field athletes do the decathalon. Okay, here's the first set of tough jumps and jump combos. Whew. Got through that. Now the camel into the BC spin into the arabesque, fan, and catch-foot turning spiral. Whew. Now the big time choreography into the 2Axel. Whoa! Hand down! And on and on until she had jumped through hoop after hoop of the program rather than having "dense" sections of skating and choreographic difficulty intertwined with cleaner, simpler sections where she could express herself. In TAT/SL Lalique, there was only one short "rest" spot where Sasha just glided along in attitude after some ballet-like steps. Although I hate the "stand around and emote" sections some skaters depend on, I think a program and the skater benefits from a couple of sections where your eye can catch up to what's going on.

At the time of Lalique I thought, "If Sasha could do this version with secure jumps, good energy and passion, and mistake free, she'll blow the roof off any place she skates." But looking back on TAT/SL compared to WAG/SL, there was more to WAG's "puddle" than I'd thought after viewing it only once and then again right afterwards on tape. True, WAG did take out a lot of the choreography and difficulty of the spins and spiral sequence compared to TAT. However, WAG replaced about two-thirds of the choreography she removed with different choreography that was more about holding the edge, speed, and line whereas TAT's was about turns in different directions combined with different leg moves, ie, more like what you would see in ice dancing.

One of the biggest differences was in the spins. TAT/SL at Lalique had three combo spins: camel/BC early on; sit spin with leg to the side into fwd scratch with arm variation about midway (and that's tough coming up from a full squat into that fwd scratch); and the final sit spin, layback, half-Biellmann catch foot spin. Plus the layback. WAG/SL only had the layback; the sit spin, layback, BC; and right after it, the fwd scratch with arm variation. I think this was a strategic move on WAG's part to keep Sasha's energy up throughout the program. Sasha has had problems with endurance. She's talked about it. There was nothing RW could do about it between December and Worlds. Spins take up a LOT of energy and even though Sasha's spins can be downright spectacular, under the OBO system of scoring, they don't rate much. TAT, OTOH, was working with COP, where spins count for a lot more. Hence I think each choreographer designed the program with the scoring system in mind, plus RW, IMO, set herself the task of getting Sasha to do a mistake free seven triple program, so energy conservation was a key point.

Another big change from TAT/SL Lalique was the FW. Only at Lalique did Sasha do serpentine FW, which included a Russian split. It was glorious--in and of itself. But again, considering Sasha's problems and the OBO system, I think RW's straightline FW was actually better, at least the way Sasha skated it at Marshall's, than TAT's serpentine FW at Lalique. Sasha didn't look overtaxed or out of breath, but the serpentine FW at Lalique had no fireworks moments other than the Russian split, which she did with minimal energy, though still with full amplitude. Speaking of splits, much has been made of why change from Russian split for split falling leaf, especially since Sasha's back leg is bent on the latter. We'd had to ask RW, but one reason could be is that choreographically the shape of the split falling leaf complements the Charlotte that comes right after it. Also, it could be that RW wanted to stay away from too many of Sasha's "same old tricks." The judges know Sasha has a phenomenal Russian split. They haven't seen her do a falling leaf. If she's going to get a good split falling leaf, she's got to start doing them. Sasha does have to fix that bent back knee, but it still shows her strength and flexibility, and now her versatility. My only worry is that RW has a lousy record of fixing bent back knees, ie, Sarah's bent knee on the free leg in her arabesque spiral. And getting a straight knee in a full split leap is tough for reasons I won't bore you with except to say it will feel straight when it's actually bent. My opinion on Russian vs. falling leaf: Too much ado about something that made no difference.

This is too long already, but I will just mention quickly that watching both the World's and Marshall's tapes of WAG/SL (same choreography, different performance) that I noticed that at least half the triple jumps had FW, choreography, or turns going into them so I think RW is thinking ahead to COP; that a lot of places where I thought Sasha had been doing "something" in TAT/SL and "nothing" in WAG/SL, all Sasha had been doing in TAT/SL was some arm positions while she was stroking and during WAG/SL, Sasha was doing more intricate stroking but without the detailed arm positions. I think WAG was smart to go with the latter. It's where Sasha needs work. It's where she can build both stronger technique from and more interesting choreography without having to use as much energy.

Getting near the end, hang in there--or not, lol. The other thing I thought was VERY different between TAT/SL, every version, and WAG/SL Marshall's was the jumps. FINALLY someone, RW, is addressing the fundamental problems in Sasha's jump technique. Whatever you feel about Sarah's skating, she was consistent in her jumping second only to Michelle. Every jump Sasha did at Marshall's except the 2Axel was solid as a rock. I couldn't see her entrance edge on her Lutz very well from the camera angle--that's another thing RW never fixed with Sarah, her flutz***--but she had difficult entrances to a number of her jumps and jump combos and she checked, she flowed, she had that "Michelle" look as if you couldn't knock her down. To me, this is huge. Without solid jumps, Sasha can pack it in. Looking at all of Sasha's performances of TAT/SL through the GP series, even her best ones, she had virtually no solid jumps. The free hip opened up, she two-footed, or she just didn't look secure during any part of the jump. I know the quality of the jumps are not the choreography and RW kept basically the same jump layout as TAT, but at Worlds it was in the SP that Sasha's jumps were great--and her passion too. Without solid jumps, it almost doesn't matter what the choreography is because he tension around, "Is she going to fall?" and just the tension of watching insecure jumps takes a lot away from the impact of the choreography. Michelle's incredible consistency in her jumps IMO has helped her make many of her programs so memorable. When you're secure about the jumps, then you can put your heart into the choreography. Without that security, even if you land all the jumps, the performance is nervous and flat.

FINALLY, the big finish. Originally I liked TAT's approach, but when I watched it again last night, TAT/SL simply didn't have enough time to build in drama and excitement. WAG/SL started building with the FW; went up a notch with what everybody always says they want, the "wow" spiral held for a long time; kept up he pace with the combo spin (love or hate the BC spin, it's an amazing feat that Sasha does better than anyone); and then I think added a "sparkler" at the end with the fwd scratch/arm variations. True, that fwd scratch is not as effective without the black and white costume, but I think for a competitive OBO program, WAG/SL beats TAT/SL, which I never thought I'd say. I think TAT/SL is a better DANCE, but that's not what's being judged.

As for Sasha's performance, TAT/SL looked bad when Sasha skated poorly just as WAG/SL looked bad when Sasha tanked. No news there. I do agree that in TAT/SL if Sasha only lands three triples, there's a lot of other things to look at and be impressed by whereas with WAG/SL if Sasha falls on four triples, there's not as much "wow" stuff there. But TAT's strength was using what a skater did well and hiding what they didn't do well. But Kulik and Yags could jump like nobody's business. The problem with Sasha is that her jumps were everybody's business except her own. She did not own them. A skater who doesn't own her jumps can't compete at the most elite level and be really passionate in her performance. Whatever WAG does for Sasha in terms of choreography in the future, at least right now it looks as if she has done thing Sasha needed most--significantly improve her jump technique.

Bottom line: I love the aesthetics of TAT/SL, but as a competitive program, even under COP, I think it got too busy and lost its focus. Also, the choreography became more important than the skater. Yes, you want to make the choreography a challenge for the skater, but IMO you don't want the skater going out there time after time unable to (a) skate it clean, and (b) skate it with any feeling. Do I think WAG/SL is a great piece of choreography? Hell no! But upon getting over the shock of what I they said were just going to be "a few minor changes" and seeing a totally different LP at Worlds; being away from the "controversy" for a while; and looking at the tapes of TAT's and WAG's versions with both good and poor performances by Sasha, I have to take back calling Wagner's version "Swan Puddle." IMO, it's as good a piece of choreography as any that were shown at Marshall's and better than some. I really believe that if we'd never seen TAT/SL, WAG/SL would have looked just fine. Not great, but just fine. Also, I do feel we're in an apples and oranges comparison because one was choreographed for the COP and the other for the OBO. The two systems have very different standards of judging. It will be interesting to see if RW's choreography gets "busier" next season, assuming COP will be used.

As for Sasha's performance, I wasn't there live so I can't comment on whether it sang or not, but I do tend to think it "hummed," and for a mistake-free seven-triple, two combo, program for Sasha, "humming" is a big step forward. It had good energy, she didn't mug, she seemed to have good speed (tough to tell on TV), and I also think there were places she was sublime. To borrow the vernacular of "American Idol," previously, all Sasha's LPs have been very pitchy. I wouldn't expect her to go from every LP being off-key to perfect pitch, give you chills with a program she'd only been working on for two to three months. But she's now set the bar higher and although I'm heartened to hear her seem to loosen her grip on her perfectionism, people are going to expect it of her. Also, she deserved the win, IMO. Although, an energetic Shizza, a mistake-free MK, a healthy Irina, a tragedy-free Jenny, a clean Suguri, or Ando without mistakes and better style could have beaten what Sasha skated--and I think they all know it, including Sasha. Still, gotta give the lady her due. I believe she skated the most competitions of anyone this season, changed coaches, skated a different LP every time she competed, and she ended the season a significantly better skater than she started, IMO. Anyway, she won five golds, I think, never only finished below second once, and won her first World medal. And I think I can now stop speculating about Sasha having some kind of "kinesthetic dyslexia," to everyone's relief, lol. I think somebody just needed to teach her how to jump.


A couple of quick comments on others:
Shizza: Understandably a lower energy performance than Worlds, but still clean and still with the most magical flow over the ice. It really looks physically impossible to glide like she does. She almost looks like she's moving sideways over the blade with as much speed as when you're going straight on. I just love it. I would like to see more of the personality we see of Shizza in the K&C in some of her skating just because I think she is so charming and funny. I would also like to see her extend more and hold some of those gorgeous positions longer.

Michelle: Although Michelle had two mistakes, I say good for her for pushing herself into unsafe territory. To me the mistakes just mean that she's working on her jump technique to try to get it to the next level. I think this is great. She's always had easy, consistent jumps but they were on the low side. I think she's taking the Olympic motto of higher, faster, stronger very seriously. And her SPINS! WOW!!! I've been waiting for this day! Michelle has true speed in her spins, plus drive and energy, all the way through to the last rotation. I think this is part of why she looked more musical. With more power in her jumps and spins, she always keeps up with the power of the music, which is very, well, powerful. Yeah, yeah, she'll need more this and that for COP, which I'm sure she and Arutunian know, but ironically, I felt this was one of Michelle's best performances ever. Why? Because she really pushed herself and took real risks. It's one thing to push yourself when you're not prepared or not ready for something, it's another thing to push yourself as part of the strategy to get to the next level. Of course I don't want her to pop a jump or fall at Nats, Worlds, or, dare I even say it, the... But at a cheesefest or really any other competition, as long as it's part of the journey toward improvement, fine, pop, fall, whatever it takes. I was very proud of Michelle for the way she skated and hope her body keeps cooperating with her. With two pops, maybe she got some judging favors over Irina, but OTOH, Irina may not have had the overall speed and power we're used to seeing and which doesn't show well on TV. After Sasha's skate, Dick Button said something about her technical mark compared to Shizuka since Sasha didn't have a 3/3, something like, "If you count the technical quality of every single thing she did, I'd put her first." The thing I liked was "counting the technical quality of every single thing." Michelle, IMO, used to have some elements, like her spins and the height of her jumps, that were good, but not as good as they could be. Now I think these things either are or are on their way to being as good as they can be, so perhaps "every single thing" Michelle did was better than Irina. Or it could be the usual cheesefest bias for a competition held in the US with two North American judges on the panel, lol.

Irina: I can't believe how strong she looks after what she's been through. Prednisone alone, which is the main treatment for vasculitis, can kill you, or at least do a lot of damage. I was just so happy to see her and loved her interview. "Oh, yes. That looks more like Irina Slutskaya skating now." I like this program a lot, although I hope she ditches the playing card motif and costume references. What a competitor! What a woman!

Jenny: Just heartbreaking to hear what she's been through. But she didn't skate bad at all; it was really just the first jump. I do agree with Peggy (can you believe it?!) that this LP just isn't Jenny. Callaghan is great for somebody like Todd Eldredge, but his programs for women have never done anything for me. I really hope he gets Leann Miller or Sandra Bezic or somebody else to choreograph both of Jenny's programs for her next year. Although the end of this season has been awful for Jenny, I think she's going to come back fighting. My only concern is her hip, but if her hip holds up, I think she'll be a force to be reckoned with at least for the US ladies.

Miki: You know, the fact that Ando's body looks so mature at 16 may not be such a good thing, or it could be a good thing because it may mean her growth spurt is over. It's just that I was looking at her hips--she's not too big or anything--but you see a lot of dancers with bodies like that at 16 and sometimes they keep growing. It's impossible to tell what a body is going to do, even looking at the parents. I mean, look at Michelle and Karen Kwan when they were both competing. It's just a variable for all the 16-year-olds--growth--that interests me. As for Miki's skating, after a growth spurt like hers weird splats aren't that unusual because your body is going, "Hey wait, how long are my legs again?" Coordination plays hide and seek. So she can (almost) do a 4sal and then wobble coming out of a relatively small split falling leaf, leading to a wipe out. I think she'll be much more together next season. As for her projection and style, hopefully she'll be coached by people who understand how difficult it is for some people to achieve it. Actually, the way she moved reminded me a little of Midori Ito, though taller and more graceful. I'll be curious to see what happens with her presentation. Yuka really developed her style after she stopped being coached by her father and at least from what I've seen, it seems the Japanese coaches are great at developing great jumpers, but the great stylists basically have to come fully formed, like Ota. For example, when they tried to make a stylist out of Yoshie Onda, it was as if they were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I really don't know what to expect, but I'm sure it will be interesting.


Among the men, I thought Joubert actually outskated Plushenko. Weir had an off night, but I agree that he does seem to be unaware of the audience when he skates--though at Nats he seemed more, I don't know, present.

So, Joe, if Sasha skated the QR at Worlds like she did Marshall's, then you were indeed absolutely right. I bow to you, O Joe, Seer of Skaters--and give props to Hockeyfan for explaining the technical differences between TAT/SL and WAG/SL so well.
Rgirl
 

tdnuva

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Re: Re: Marshall's as seen on TV

Rgirl said:
Jef Billings of SOI looks like he won't have as much SOI work next year.

off-topic i know.... but why does he have less work for soi next year??
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
miki_tan said:
IMHO, Miki Ando's incosistency on 3Loop was caused by her 4 Loop practice.
Oops -- I was going to quote Rgirl's post in it's entirety and respond to it line by line, but I accidentally hit Miki Tan's post instead.:)

I think this is a big decision for any skater in training. Michelle and others have been discouraged from practicing a triple Lutz/triple toe because they don't want to lose the timing on the triple Lutz/double toe that they need for the short program. It takes yuuki to go for a quad any way you look at it.

Rgirl, I hope you are keeping these posts of yours for your new book, the Aesthetics and Kinesthetics of Ice Skating by Rgirl. Outstanding analysis like that adds a new dimension to our enjoyment of these programs. Must reading for all GS members (yes, there will be a quiz! :laugh: )

I thought Irina was just super. Maybe her program was a little bit untamed, but that's all the better. She threw herself into her program like the Irina of old. "This is me -- how do you like it?" I do, I do!

About the judging, Ptichka complains that the U.S. and Canadian judges placed Michelle ahead of Shizuka and the Russian judge put Irina ahead of both of them. I don't necessarily disagree with any of them. I thank Doris Pulaski and Rgirl for helping me understand, on this thread, why I was totally mesmerized by Michelle's skate, even with the mistakes. If she had been placed first I still would have had no complaints about the judging.

Both at Worlds and now Marshall's the judges have been pretty consistent in rewarding "the complete package." At Dortmund Sasha received raves and straight first-place ordinals for a "complete package" skate in the short program, placing higher than others who did programs with higher technical content. In the LP Michelle received 4 first-place votes against Shizuka's smooth technical block-buster. I think the same will continue to be true under the CoP. The judges will make sure that all quality elements are rewarded.

Best fluff bit: Michelle playing hockey. :love: :laugh:

Mathman

PS. In the segment about costumes, didn't Peggy look fantastic in those clips from Grenoble? :love:
 
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