Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Re: Responsibility

Realistic ... I agree that the GP is a very badly set up competition. I always want to see Michelle compete, so of course I would love to see her do everything. :lol:
But ... she has been right on target with the way she has handled things this year, so that's good enough for me!

As far as that "other" board ... if you mean Adrian's board, I can understand your frustration. I got banned from it awhile back. Adrian got in the middle of a thread about Michelle not doing 3/3's and just kept strirring up the pot until he got many of us all worked up ... at which point we got passionate with our responses ... and he tossed us out.
He seems very hung up on a power trip, so you know what ... let him have his fun. His board really isn't worth the trouble anyway. Not with nice places like this to hang out.

Re: Grand Prix

I like the Grand Prix. Especially this past year, when I got to see Skate America in person. Also it's interesting to keep track of the point totals and root for my favorites to parlay a third and a fourth, or whatever, into qualifying for the final. Plus, look at the show that Sasha put on last year!

I also like the mix of skaters. A few stars at each event, yes, but also some youngsters and second tier performers who otherwise would not have a chnce to experience major events. Again, this is especially a factor if you see it live, because television only shows the top people.

If there weren't a Grand Prix, what would we have instead? Nothing? Pro-ams and fluff exhibitions featuring only the top people over and over?

I think they made a big improvement in putting the GP final back to December. As I said on another thread, I like to think of the Grand Prix as the regular season, with the National Championships and Worlds as the playoffs.

Rgirl, great post about burnout, heart rates and oxygen intake.

Mathman

Re: Grand Prix

Well, gee, mathman, leave it to you to like to add/subtract and follow points!:rollin:

And what did you watch BEFORE the GP Series anyway? I guess to each his/her own. But it wasn't ALL pro-ams, cheesy shows, etc.

Anyhow, I must not be that addicted to watching figure skating. Hey, but I would go to watch Skate America in person with Lexi if it comes to Omaha. Like THAT'S ever gonna happen!!!:rollin:

And nymk, I've probably just gotten myself banned from that other place. I just wrote a short livid post to the administrator:rollin: . Do I care? Nah! Will I apologize? Nah!

I'm just a tornado looking for a place to land!!!!!

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

rgirl - with regards to burn-out, do skaters suffer the same type of physiological changes as you described in the cyclist? I'm familiar with endurance athletes who get to the point where their bodies are so exhausted that, even when they are exerting themselves at a high level, they can't get their heart rate up. This is my understanding of burn out. Does this happen to skaters? I'd think that skaters would suffer more of a mental burn out where motivation drops. Any physiological effects would be of the repetitive use type - wear and tear on the joints for example. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Thartell - I believe the 'burn-out' is the same as being in a 'slump'. It happens to sportspeople in every sport. Even the Yankee fans get burn out or go into a slump because of the team's constant winning. But this year things are a changing and it has brought those fans back and out of their burn out.

Joe

Re: Grand Prix

Realistic, actually, before the GP I watched all those men vs. women, USA vs the world, pro competitions that they used to have. Those were great, especially Kristi. One time the women were clobbering the men, then the judges started cheating for the men and let them catch up and tie. Then there was a jump-off and Kristi did a wonderful triple toe/double toe, but Brian Boitano did a triple toe/triple toe and won for the men. Big deal. Get off the ice, Brian, what kind of chivalry is that? Now that's what I call fun. I hope Kristi will skate again after she has her baby.

Another memorable one was when Surya Bonaly and Philippe Candeloro won for France against a heavily favored U.S. team (I forgot who, but I was rooting for Surya and Phillippe in that one).

Will Skate America ever come to Omaha (population 373,361)? Why not, it came to Spokane (population 195,629). And set the all-time attendance record for Skate America, thanks to Michelle. If it does come to Omaha you might get to see Vakhtang Murvanidze. or Watanabe and Kido, like I did in Spokane!

Joe, oh those poor Yankee fans. Just win, win, win, all the time. No wonder they're bored. :lol:

Mathman

Re: Grand Prix

mathman, I used to watch those all the time. They were actually pretty entertaining. And I remember one time when it was Kristi against Scott and Kristi had to call the jump. She called a 3flip which is the one, at that time, that Scott had the most trouble with. Well, of course, he still had trouble and the ladies won that night.

And joe, I'm a Braves' fan myself!!!!! You're never bored watching the Braves. And I'm even from Atlanta (just reside here in Omaha for some reason....:rollin: ), so I'm a TRUE Braves' fan.:rollin:

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Joe - I would think that for a skater burn out=slump. I do know, however, that there can be physiological effects of burn out. About 3 weeks ago I covered around 350 miles on my bike in 5 rides over 9 days, and I'm still suffering the effects of it. At the time, I felt strong, but as a result of that effort, which is more than I'm used to, I've had 'dead legs' for the past few weeks. I can't see a skater dealing with that type of burn out, but I could be wrong.

As to those Yankees: rough life for those poor fans - although, with a payroll like that, I wouldn't stand for it either!

The GP Series

Now I'm a bit confused. What's wrong with the GP series? Why are there people like Realistic who don't like the GP competitions? My ignorance of this sport clearly shows here, sorry. I defend Michelle's decision to skip the GP series not because I dislike it but because I support Michelle as long as she doesn't do it "illegally" or with some unfair help.

Re: Grand Prix

Hey guys - I am glad we cleared up the illegalities of the GP. It's ok to refuse. It may make one's federation angry but it is perfectly lawful to refuse.

Mathman, Thartell - I hate the Yankees but I have to live with it in this city so I am delighted that they are not walking away with it this year. Slump or no slump.

Realistic - As a Mets fan, you can imagine how I feel about the Braves. But any win for the Mets makes me smile even in last place.

Joe

Re: Grand Prix

Apache ... I guess I don't really dislike the GP series. My biggest problem with it is the two long programs they have to do. That is probably my only complaint with it ... it is way too hard on the skaters IMO.

Re: Grand Prix

Apache, I don't know how to explain why I dislike the GP Series, but I will definitely try. First you have to understand a little bit about me. My stepsister competed way back when dinosaurs had skates. I would go with her to practices and her coach would try to convince me to skate. I did try but could never skate backwards. I could do only ONE jump..a single axel because you could do that going forward however I had to skate forward to get into it. Don't ask me. I just know it's the only jump I ever accomplished and I did it twice. So I have been contented to watch from the sidelines and learn from my stepsister.

With that in mind, when the GP Series started (and I have CRS syndrome so I don't know how long ago it was), I watched it. And I was bored stiff. The ONLY GP Series I have watched over the years (and not every year either) has been Skate America and that hasn't been too often either. As much as I like figure skating, this series is boring to me. The announcers are boring. And maybe it's because it's so early in the season (at least it was until this season) that I'm just not ready to watch.

Don't get me wrong. I love figure skating but not to the extent that I will watch this Series. This past season I did watch the ENTIRE Series to watch Sasha skate and some of the others. I now know that I won't watch it again unless I have absolutely nothing else to do. And in my life that's not gonna happen.

So Apache, my lack of interest in the GP Series isn't based on a skater's participation or lack thereof, but in the fact that it bores me.

Hope that helped! Just to let you know, I do watch every other figure skating competition, pro/pro-am/amateur, there is except for this series. :rollin:

Re: Grand Prix

Thanks Realistic, and I thought there was something seriously wrong with the GP series.:lol:

I, on the other hand just love serious competitions in any sport. Yes, I'm a sadist.

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

I join Realistic in lying I said "This will be my last post on this thead" two posts ago:lol: But I did want to thank Skatingfan5 and Berthes Ghost for correcting my math in terms of Michelle's titles and her age when she won her first World title. Once again, my brain was saying, "Seven <strong>National</strong> titles" while my fingers typed "Seven <strong>World</strong> titles." My apologies for yet another math goof and thanks to you all for correcting me. I should leave the exact math to the people who are good at it and just say, "I don't know how many National and World titles Michelle has won but I know it's a very impressive lots and lots." Now I can't get this song out of my head, <em>I'm forever blowing math facts! Pretty math facts in this thread!</em>

Also, I really dug Berthes Ghosts's list of World champions starting with the youngest. Very interesting stuff. (Here I thought I was doing good remembering that Michelle was born in 1980, but once again, Rgirl's basic math attempts are tripped up by a birthday, which I even <strong>know</strong>! Curses!:lol: )

Hey Realistic, you read my posts in 5 minutes?! That's some kind of record! I know what they say and I can't do that:lol: BTW for those who don't know, Realistic and I were put on this earth to be in perpetual disagreement. We were introduced as babies and immediately disagreed on everything from which rattle to use to whether Huggy Bunny or Squeeze-Me Bow Wow was the best stuffed animal to sleep with. (Realistic, you crack me up.)

Also just so it's clear which Adrian Chew forum people are talking about, he administrates two--at least only two that I know of (don't want to make my math record worse, though I probably will:lol: ). One is SashaFans.com and the other is SkatingForums.com.

Realistic was talking about posting on SashaFans on a thread entitled "Article: Kwan, Hughes, absent from Grand Prix roster." Realistic, you're MKSCFan over there, right? All I can say is, Sheesh! That thread sure became a mess! When I first posted on it, the thread had just gotten to a few posts into the fourth page. For the first three and a half pages, there was a "spirited" debate on the importance or not of competing in the GP series, but then it got off into strange accusatory comments. Realistic sit down because I agree with everything you said both in your posts there and what you said about the thread here. But not to be the pot calling the kettle black, I don't want to get too off-topic in this thread by talking about another forum so I'll stop

Mathman, I like the Grand Prix too and for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Of course I didn't get to see Skate America live But I think it's a great way for skaters on the way up and in the initial years of trying to maintain their top status to have fall competitions and a mid-season championship--IF the ISU does the right thing and holds the GPF in the second or third week in December. The Grand Prix series, IIRC, started in the mid-90s so it's still evolving. Michelle and Irina are the first skaters who have been at or near the top of the pack for many years, so by doing what's best for themselves they are setting options for other skaters in the future. I think it's great that Michelle is demonstrating that there is no "rulebook" for how to handle one's career once you've been skating at the top of the elite level for so many years. Besides, like Mathman, I enjoy seeing the mix of skaters, seeing how a skater who has just started her Sr. level really holds up against the more experienced Sr. skaters. At least for me, sometimes a skater will look phenomenal in her Jr. events and even a few Sr. events. But put her in the GP series where she may skate three events against some of the best in the world and often you see that she has a long way to go. OTOH, sometimes you see a "newbie" skate in a surprisingly impressive way against the others. I also think it's a great series in which to see skaters improve (hopefully) or to see bad habits the skater needs to fix.

Glad you liked the info about burnout, heart rates and oxygen intake, Mathman. I hoped it wouldn't be too technical, but I wanted to get across that athletes like Michelle who are conscious about trying to avoid burn-out are doing more than just trying to avoid getting "bored" with skating, that it's a very important choice that affects everything from risk of injury to total body/mind health.

Tharrtell, Great question about the differences in burn-out between endurance athletes such as long-distance runners, swimmers, or cyclists, like the one I used as an example, and "anaerobic" athletes such as figure skaters, gymnasts, short distance track and field athletes, boxers, etc.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm familiar with endurance athletes who get to the point where their bodies are so exhausted that, even when they are exerting themselves at a high level, they can't get their heart rate up. This is my understanding of burn out. Does this happen to skaters? I'd think that skaters would suffer more of a mental burn out where motivation drops. Any physiological effects would be of the repetitive use type - wear and tear on the joints for example.[/quote] The reason it's difficult to discuss the physiologic effects of burnout is because a lot of it involves endocrinology (hormones). Most people think of hormones as estrogen and testosterone, but the true scope and interaction between the hormones released from various glands can be truly overwhelming. I could copy the chapters on endocrinology from my Guyton's <em>Physiology</em> and big Gray's <em>Anatomy</em> but nobody's here to try to get college credits Also, even sports physiologists are constantly researching and arguing over the different ways different kinds of athletes experience burn-out.

Sorry this is such a long round about way of addressing your questions, but here is what I'd have to say with the caveat that I'm not up on the latest research in this area--although your questions might just prompt me to get on MedLine and look : With figure skaters, the effects of severe burn-out are just as physiological as they are for endurance athletes, just in different ways. To try to put it simply (and succinctly ), for any athlete, the effects of <strong>mild</strong> burn-out usually show up as emotional/psychological problems, ie, being tempermental or sometimes the opposite, being indifferent; sleep disorders; unexplained weight fluctuations; changes in appetite; bloating in the abdominal area; and propensity for minor injuries. As burn-out progresses to severe, problems resulting from electrolyte imbalances and chronic functional adrenal insufficiency (CFAI) can lead to more severe problems.

Obviously there are people who study this stuff regularly who know far more than I, but from my experience and knowledge, the physiologic changes that occur as a result of burn-out are the same for every kind of athlete, whether they be endurance (aerobic) or short duration (anaerobic) athletes. Where the differences happen is in the kinds of problems the athletes have, but that could be just as much a function of their sport. Like you said, endurance athletes can't get the HR up. Figure skaters won't be able to get their HR up either, which they do have to do in building up speed with their stroking, but it might not be as evident or as disadvantageous to their skating, at least not at first.

Where figure skaters tend to show problems is with weight fluctuation, sleep disorders, and especially injuries to the ligaments (sprains). A lot of athletic burn-out, according to many researchers, is due to chronic functional adrenal insufficiency, which is not like Addison's Disease, which is a whole different thing, and not like acute adrenal insufficiency, which is a medical emergency where the adrenals aren't producing enough cortisol to sustain life. Chronic functional adrenal insufficiency (CFAI), some researchers feel, sets off a whole domino effect or chain reaction of problems. The adrenal glands release about 30 different hormones and each of these hormones interact with other hormones, set off enzymatic and cellular reactions, and basically play a role in every reaction in the body. Plus, if there are problems with the adrenals, other glands like the hypothalumus, the pituitary, the thyroid, and the ovaries and testes are affected. I wish I could draw a chart, but if you think of overtraining and stress at the top of a pyramid, burn-out as the next section below it with causal arrows going both ways because these things tend to work like a vicious cycle, the one below it as CFAI, then hormonal dysfunction, then mitochondrial dysfunction (mitochondria are like the engines of the cell), liver detoxifying problems, bowel dysfunction, hypothlamic dysfunction, immune dysfunction, low neurotransmitters, poor sleep, metabolic disturbances, susceptibility to injury, and susceptibility to infections. It's actually less like a pyramid and more like a square with each of these things in boxes with arrows going both ways connecting them.

Some clinicians feel that CFAI causes ligament laxity and feel this is why athletes with burn-out are prone to back injuries (the spine, as I'm sure you know, is chuggy jam with ligaments; some anatomists even describe the vertebral discs as ligaments) and sprains of the ligaments of the knee, ankle, and shoulder. The bottom line is that it's easy for the chain reaction of athletic burn-out to get started, but once it starts, it's much harder to get things back to homeostasis. Also, not everyone agrees on how athletic burn-out works. Some researchers feel it starts in the adrenal glands while others feel it starts in the brain. Still others feel it starts in the hypothalamus and others feel it's primarily clinical depression. I think it starts in the adrenal glands and that the changes in the release of cortisol is what makes burn-out so confusing and difficult to treat. The adrenals can be releasing too much cortisol and because of the compensation by the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland (what's called the hypothalamic-pituitaryaxis), the athlete feels exhausted all the time. OTOH, the adrenals can be releasing too LITTLE cortisol and because of the compensation by the hypothalamic-pituitar axis, again the athlete feels exhausted all the time. So you have opposite responses in terms of release of cortisol, but the "symptom" is the same--exhaustion. From this one example I hope you can see why it's difficult to say aerobic athletes will have these kinds of problems vs. anaerobic athletes who will have these kinds of problems. A lot of it depends on the individual and a lot of it depends on what stage of burn-out the athlete is in.

Just to make things more complicated, there is a genetic component to all this. Some people you can whack around like a rag doll and make them do hard labor 18 hours a day their whole lives and they never experience anything like burnout. Some people are just born with the genes for super resilient systems. Other people are the opposite. If an athlete lacks resilience, there's not much s/he can do about it since it's genetic except be aware of it and try to do things like eat right, get enough sleep and rest, use stress management techniques, and don't overtrain. Unfortunately people usually don't find out these things until they start having problems and part of the competitive/athletic psyche is "I can do anything!" That's one of the reasons why I think Michelle is very wise to cut back on her competitive schedule at this point in her career. Let people critisize her all they want. In my book, she's smart to listen to her instincts and her body and ignore the naysayers.

Anyway, I'm kind of burned out myself, lol--just tired--so I'm afraid this is a very messy attempt at answering your questions. But as I said, the causes of burn-out are the same no matter what kind of athlete you are, even if the researchers disagree on the causes; the problems just manifest themselves differently depending on what stage of burn-out you're in and individual differences. But it's not a matter of anaerobic athletes like figure skaters having certain kinds of problems and aerobic athletes having a different set of problems. You may see psychological/emotional problems more often in elite skaters or gymnasts because it's more acceptable in their environments to be "temperamental" whereas in other sports the expected attitude may be "shut up and do your job." The latter athletes may express the psychological changes due to burn-out in different ways. Also, by psychological I don't mean it doesn't have a physiologic basis. Hormonal changes, changes in neurotransmitters, bloodflow to the brain--all these things affect a person's psychological and emotional well-being. How these changes are expressed can be a function of a lot of things.

So before I set myself up for poster burn-out, I will end this post and maybe even take a nap
Rgirl
PS I wrote this on another WP program and didn't see the added posts. Athletic burn-out is not the same as a slump. Although a slump may have elements of mild burn-out as part of it, an athlete can be feeling great and in great shape and go through a slump, ie, a period where a baseball player just can't hit, pitch, or field like s/he's used to. For a skater, a slump might be where a normally consistent jumper has a season with a lot of inexplicable falls. Burn-out is a physiologic cascade of problems, so yes, a skater can feel symptoms of burn-out in terms of "lead legs." Remember, some skaters are training for six to eight hours a day, including off-ice training and repeated run-throughs of their programs. It's not the kind of training an endurance athlete does, but if their body gets out of whack as I described above, muscle pain can be a symptom for any kind of athlete.

The problem you described of doing a long bike ride and your legs continuing to feel like "lead" even weeks after sounds to me like a recovery problem. Whenever you exert yourself "to the max" there are small microtears in the muscles; in fact that's what delayed muscle soreness is from, the inflammation due to those small microtears. It also sounds like it could be a hormonal problem. When you push yourself that hard, and I'm assuming you were training hard before this particular ride, the adrenal glands release a lot of cortisol. Sometimes after a marathon, for example, runners experience a feeling of exhileration for almost a week after the event, then on day 7 they crash and literally can't get up. This is because the body gets on this cycle from both training and the race of releasing lots of cortisol, along with adrenaline and other "go go" hormones. Because of the excitement of the race, the body keeps releasing these "go go" hormones for days after the race until it goes through its reserve supply and the person "crashes."

Of course, I'm going on the assumption that you are otherwise healthy. If you continue for another week or so to feel exhausted in general and with the heaviness in your legs without improvement, it would be my advice that you see a good sports medicine physician. In the meantime, rest, don't push yourself. Take a B-complex supplement, calcium, magnesium, and vitamin C. If you already take these in a general supplement or separately, increase them. You also might try drinking a full bottle of Pedialyte, which is available in most drugstores, for electrolyte replacement. I think grape is the least offensive flavor, lol, and it's best very cold though don't put ice in it, drink it right from the bottle. Don't waste money on sports drinks. Eat well. Sleep and rest as much as possible. Keep the lights low at night and the shades down during the day. I'm just trying to thing of stuff off the top of my head. It sounds to me like an acute experience of overexertion and exhaustion, and if it is you want to make sure you recover thoroughly. The toughest problem with athletes is that they are so highly self-motivated, they want to get back to training ASAP. But take your time. And like I said, if you feel no improvement over the next week or two, see a good sports medicine physician.

Good luck and if you want to PM me, feel free. I don't know if I can help, but I'd be happy to try. Rgirl

Re: Loosening tied ends

*Whew* Well, after that (yes, I read it all!) it seems an anticlimax to get back to the Grand Prix. But here's what I think about Apache's question regarding why some people find the Grand Prix boring.

The American television audience is used to seeing only the very top performers. We turn the TV off after Serena Williams’ match is over and after Tiger Woods completes his round (the U.S. Open is on right now, Tiger just recorded a 66, LOL.) In skating, the spring Hershey's Kiss Challenge that ended the 2002-2003 season, gave us Michelle AND Irina AND Sasha AND Sarah AND Elena S. AND Fumie. The supernovae in the galaxy of skating stars. In the professional programs that Realistic and I were reminiscing about above, though not intended as serious competitions nevertheless might bring us Kristi AND Scott AND Kurt AND Tara AND Brian B. So the casual viewer has come to expect and to demand a blockbuster line-up or we're not really interested.

The six events of the Grand Prix may feature one or two skaters of that caliber in a mix that otherwise, to most viewers, pretty much comprises What's-her-face and Who's-he?.

In Skate America 2002, for instance, the ladies field included first-line American aspirants Ann Patrice McD and Jenny Kirk, as well as international star Elena Liaschenko, not to mention Nakano and Nelidina going after their historic triple Axels. Ho, hum. When Sarah Hughes had to withdraw because of injury it was "we have to land Michelle Kwan or give the people their money back."

Next year, in Skate America 2003, Sasha will be the one carrying the financial and publicity burdens on her shoulders, even though Sasha may not even win the event against a strong field including Volchkova, Arakawa and Kirk, plus knocking-on-the-door Mok, Kostner, Nelidina and Nakano. If, God forefend, Sasha should have to withdraw, they’ll be twisting Michelle’s arm again.

So I think it is largely a question of the typical casual fan having been spoiled to the point that we only want to see the absolute stars, and don’t care much about anybody else.

Just my opinion. (See you all in Reading, Pa., LOL)

Mathman

Re: Loosening tied ends

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also just so it's clear which Adrian Chew forum people are talking about, he administrates two--at least only two that I know of (don't want to make my math record worse, though I probably will ). One is SashaFans.com and the other is SkatingForums.com.[/quote]

Off the topic at hand, but isn't Dustin the admin of Sashafans? Doesn't Adrian just moderate there or did he open up SF originally?

Re: Loosening tied ends

yes yes yes yes, who cares.

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Rgirl - thanks for the information. The hormonal aspect of burn out for both endurance athletes as well as anaerobic athletes was new to me. It makes sense, though. Yes, I've been told to take it easy for the new few weeks, but it will be hard. Even though I know how important a well rested, fully recovered body is, it's tough to cut back when races loom in the future.

Back to the GP series, based on what rgirl detailed about burn out, it seems smart for Michelle, and maybe some of the other old bags:lol: to ease up. The logistics of the events in addition to the competition probably put a lot of stress on the body. I hope it keeps 'em around longer. I love seeing the new kids, but there's something to be said about a mature skater - especially a mature skater who was as fresh as Michelle was this past year.

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

"Michelle AND Irina AND Sasha AND Sarah AND Elena S. AND Fumie. The supernovae in the galaxy of skating stars."

IIRC, a nova is a star that suddenly flares up and just as quickly dies away. Perhaps you were thinking more of Oksana and Tara. A supernova is of course a 1974 chevy with pin stipping and flashy wheel covers. :lol:

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Michelle is the quasar of figure skating.

MM