2015 World Junior Championships Mens Free Skate March 7

juuryokunashi said:

While I can see where you're coming from judging from Shoma's and Boyang's FS, other factors that led to Shoma edging out Boyang:

1) It was just the FS that Boyang won; Shoma had a 12-point advantage from the SP
2) Shoma's PCS was just 3 points higher than what he got at JGPF (and 6 points lower than what he got in 4CC though that's a senior event)
3) supposing Shoma got around the same PCS as he did at his JGPF FS, he'd still have a 2-point lead against Boyang (for what it's worth, Boyang had a 6-point increase in PCS from his JGPF)
4) The 3T<< call is probably dodgy, but we're not the technical caller in the event (it did look more like a botched 3T to me than a 4T, planned elements aside).

Disclaimer: I love both Shoma and Boyang but I think the result was just right. (To be quite honest though, I think Sota should've come in 4th, but he wasn't a big disaster in the SP compared to Nathan so he had the advantage carried over from there, too). And in the end, it's just us couch judging here in the forum. ^^;

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i agree with everything you say regarding shoma, boyang, esp sota and nathan,
i am really glad that boyang had the skate of his life but thats doesnt mean he is the complete package yet,i think apart from jumps everything else was just ok (and he deserves his TES 100%), i agree that he improved a lot since the start of season but i dont like his skating yet, and his prgrams are doing him no favor, i really hate his free, he seems really disconnected with the music, i see he is trying in his SP but for his LP he just seems to get through the program
about shoma, i thought it was 2T at 1st but he seemed to add one more rev. really fast, and i agree with the PCS gap both in the short and the free program and overall placement
about sota-nathan, its weird that sota got higher SS than sota, to me nathan is much better than him, shame about 2 quads, probably thats why he got lower SS, i would still give him 2-3 pts higher PCS, considering andrew beat him on that is interesting to say the least and he had a fall too,
also i would like to add i loved loved the 2 young ones, irakli and andrew, they are scary good for their age, how about that 3A from irakli, i will pay attention to him more next season, i cant wait to see their developments
also loved Deniss and Denis, Deniss got some crazy spins and twizzles that i am crazy about also great jumps and Denis is so much fun to watch and looks so gratefull and humble, congratz to them as well

juuryokunashi said:

While I can see where you're coming from judging from Shoma's and Boyang's FS, other factors that led to Shoma edging out Boyang:

1) It was just the FS that Boyang won; Shoma had a 12-point advantage from the SP
2) Shoma's PCS was just 3 points higher than what he got at JGPF (and 6 points lower than what he got in 4CC though that's a senior event)
3) supposing Shoma got around the same PCS as he did at his JGPF FS, he'd still have a 2-point lead against Boyang (for what it's worth, Boyang had a 6-point increase in PCS from his JGPF)
4) The 3T<< call is probably dodgy, but we're not the technical caller in the event (it did look more like a botched 3T to me than a 4T, planned elements aside).

Disclaimer: I love both Shoma and Boyang but I think the result was just right. (To be quite honest though, I think Sota should've come in 4th, but he wasn't a big disaster in the SP compared to Nathan so he had the advantage carried over from there, too). And in the end, it's just us couch judging here in the forum. ^^;

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shoma's score, GOE/PCS is not just boosted in this comp...
this is a strategy ISU use, just look at how russian girls' GOE/PCS is boosted step by step leading to sochi OG.

gallavich said:

I see a young Plushy, Yagudin and Sasha Abt (particularly if you watch his ex from US Nats - pure Sasha through and through). All of whom I daresay had "presence" themselves. But maybe these young skaters are like Rorscharch tests, and we all see whatever we want to see in them...

I like the gloves.

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Agreed; if we like them, they remind us of whom we like. And since I stopped *really* watching skating in the mid to late 90s, my Rorshach would not include those skaters you mentioned. And the gloves did remind me of today's Russians, and plenty of folks like them, just IMO.

gallavich said:

Shoma and Boyang will turn 18 this year, Adian and Nam will turn 17. They are older. And they came in 5th and 6th at last year's JW. I'm just saying that a lot can change in a year.

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There are a few main age groups among the top juniors, and at these ages, yes A LOT can change in a year:

1997 (turning 18 this year):

Boyang Jin (October)
Shoma Uno (December)

Born mid 1998 (turning 17 this year):

Daniel Samohin (March)
Adyan Pitkeev (May)
Nam Ngyugen (May)
Alexander Samarin (June)


Born 1999 (turning 16 this year):

Alexander Petrov (April)
Roman Sadovsky (May)
Nathan Chen (May)
Deniss Vasiljevs (August)


Babies (born in 2000 and 2001):

Sota Yamamoto (January 2000)
Torgashev (May 2001)


So really, even though it seems like Chen's been around for forever, he's still one of the relatively younger competitors at this event. Torgashev is so young which makes him that much more impressive!

CBC commentary from my fresh memory. great commentary as usual.
skater intro, mainly shoma, he is the poster boy. mentioned APit good looking

Roman, the most relaxed 3loop entry, jump landing effortless, good step sequence.

Nathan, they love him. apparent dance training and musicality, need more speed going into quad, fast rotator type, they love his choreo, "unexpected little jewelers here and there" wanna watch again, when asked about nathan's style reminds whom(I guess, the wanted answer is Patrick Chan), but both kurt and carol insist that Nathan has his unique style, feels like a young piano prodigy with a old soul, need more time to grow stronger.

sato, steal yuzuru's costume and moves, a little bit of everything but also so-so in everything. result should be similar to nathan, lean on both 3A and 2A technique, let the program go to focus on jump(especially compare to Nathan), love his smile at camera. they like nathan, but think sato's game plan worked.

Boyang, they give Boyang a big shout out support. quad literally flying, NOT look like robot (dance along with chore between jumps), feels like has fresh battery, strong self awareness in the air to help him make the necessary correction, getting tired, no breathing room at all in this program, should be tired. beautiful and innovative back camel entry, hard to hold back with 3 quads and speed along with choreo, needs polish of details, but lots of details in this program.

APit: presssure from senior world selection, needs to deliver, calm lyical methodological entry to quad, high 3A-3T with great landing, can see his sad face after the mistake，mistake take all the air out of this program, which only works when all jumps landed, needs to wait to grow more stonger and let that injured back to heal. has the potential but not the happiness, feel the heavy burden on him, "we feel your pain honey."

Shoma: comfortable SP margin, has a command on ice, rock star quality, mentioned shoma's idol is Dai. low center of gravity like elvis stojko. unusual 3 jump combo (usually 2A-LO-3S,but his 2a-lo-3F), some jumps landed with speed, some with will.
this is dangerous math equation for judges, banked SP lead has been withdrew too much, performance not as good, but good flow and knee band. not excited when results show. they also mentioned his low landing leg.

I think the program/performance they love is Nathan's, not Shoma's. also, mentioned Boyang's shining improvement, that some people ignore.

I wish some fans recorded the whole thing, great informative commentary from CBC.

apple123 said:

This is insane. How could a guy with 70 TES beat a guy with 90 TES? Is this still a sport? There are so many dodgy things in Shoma's score. The should-be-2T 3T, the 10 point gap in PCS. It's just disgusting. I really think Boyang is the rightful winner. Shame on the judges!

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Jin beat Uno by NINE points in the FS! Considering how Jin doesn't present his program at all I think the scores were fair. Uno was much better in the SP and his PCS deserve to be 10 points higher than Jin in the FS. Jin definitely deserved to win the FS and he did handily, but I think Uno was the deserved winner overall. The difference between their skating quality is night and day IMO. If juniors were allowed to do quads in the SP, Jin may have had a better chance to win, but given the rules and that he couldn't, I think the placements are right.

To be fair, I thought Jin even getting 66 in PCS was generous given Pitkeev and Petrov only got 67 in PCS...not that the Russians are great in that department, but they are definitely less detached from their music and program than Jin was.

yyyskate said:

CBC commentary from my fresh memory. great commentary as usual.
skater intro, mainly shoma, he is the poster boy. mentioned APit good looking

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thanks for the report!! i hope we can see CBC videos as well, even if we cant thanks to you we know generally what they thought about it :yay:

silverlake22 said:

There are a few main age groups among the top juniors, and at these ages, yes A LOT can change in a year:

1997 (turning 18 this year):

Boyang Jin (October)
Shoma Uno (December)

Born mid 1998 (turning 17 this year):

Daniel Samohin (March)
Adyan Pitkeev (May)
Nam Ngyugen (May)
Alexander Samarin (June)


Born 1999 (turning 16 this year):

Alexander Petrov (April)
Roman Sadovsky (May)
Nathan Chen (May)
Deniss Vasiljevs (August)


Babies (born in 2000 and 2001):

Sota Yamamoto (January 2000)
Torgashev (May 2001)


So really, even though it seems like Chen's been around for forever, he's still one of the relatively younger competitors at this event. Torgashev is so young which makes him that much more impressive!

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Maybe its because I'm unconsciously using Hanyu as a measuring stick but I was a bit shocked seeing the ages laid out like this.

So Andrew is just barely old enough for Juniors. If he had been born after July 1 instead of in May, he would have to have waited till next year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Junior_Figure_Skating_Championships#Qualifying


BTW, he is the current US Junior Champion.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00014939.htm

Last year he was only 4th place in Novice, so he has come a long way this year

http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/profile/andrew_torgashev.

silverlake22 said:

There are a few main age groups among the top juniors, and at these ages, yes A LOT can change in a year:

1997 (turning 18 this year):

Boyang Jin (October)
Shoma Uno (December)

Born mid 1998 (turning 17 this year):

Daniel Samohin (March)
Adyan Pitkeev (May)
Nam Ngyugen (May)
Alexander Samarin (June)


Born 1999 (turning 16 this year):

Alexander Petrov (April)
Roman Sadovsky (May)
Nathan Chen (May)
Deniss Vasiljevs (August)


Babies (born in 2000 and 2001):

Sota Yamamoto (January 2000)
Torgashev (May 2001)


So really, even though it seems like Chen's been around for forever, he's still one of the relatively younger competitors at this event. Torgashev is so young which makes him that much more impressive!

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Last year he was only 4th place in Novice, so he has come a long way this year

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However, he did win intermediates the year before. I liked him then, but I think he has a lot of work to do on the big stuff. I think when he starts to add 3axel and then, later on, a quad, his stock may slip for a bit.

apple123 said:

Let's have a look point by point:

1. Shoma shouldn't have that much lead in sp. The GOE for his 3A and 3Lz is ridiculous, and the 4 point gap in PCS is just too much.
2. Don't compare PCS at different competitions. Just tell me how exactly the 10 point gap is normal when a guy had pulled off the skate of his life and the other guy had a subdued skate.
3. Nothing to add about the 3T. It should be downgraded to a 2T. Simple as that.

Now tell me who is the rightful winner?

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I don't think Boyang had the skate of his life. If that skate was it then he has a limited range of skills he can show us as a skater. To be fair, he had a solid FS. But the fact remains that he placed 5th in the SP. The Russians were still ahead of him.

I won't question the GOE for Shoma's 3A and 3Lz as they have already been discussed here, but that PCS seemed justifiable. Shoma has great musicality and knows how to put together a program. Boyang is working on that, it seems. Kudos for him. But there is no doubt for me that Shoma would have a higher PCS than Boyang, who is still trying to "know" his music. It's like studying material for a test by memorizing and not really grasping the concepts. That's what Boyang's skating is like now. Give him a couple of years and maybe he will get there.

chasingpolaris said:

I don't think Boyang had the skate of his life. If that skate was it then he has a limited range of skills he can show us as a skater. To be fair, he had a solid FS. But the fact remains that he placed 5th in the SP. The Russians were still ahead of him.

I won't question the GOE for Shoma's 3A and 3Lz as they have already been discussed here, but that PCS seemed justifiable. Shoma has great musicality and knows how to put together a program. Boyang is working on that, it seems. Kudos for him. But there is no doubt for me that Shoma would have a higher PCS than Boyang, who is still trying to "know" his music. It's like studying material for a test by memorizing and not really grasping the concepts. That's what Boyang's skating is like now. Give him a couple of years and maybe he will get there.

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It is interesting that Boyang would have won just barely if he did the triple triple combo in the short. I guess the judges are telling him that he needs 3 MORE quads than a shaky Shoma to even have a chance. I'm not sure if the the difference between their skating is significant enough to justify the win considering the vast technical difference we've seen seen these two guys pull off in this competition. Having said that, I do think Boyang should go for the quad in the short next season- it would help him tremendously.

Everyone says Nathan is a artistic skater, I feel I have some different observations. I think his very tight shoulders and hunched neck are very obvious distractions of his skating, which is odd considering his ballet training at a younger age. Sometimes I feel he looks like a school nerd who is studying too hard so that his back and neck get hunched, or he has some chronic injury to his shoulders and neck. When he was a novice skater, he did not look this way.

^^ hippo you just repeated my question in another thread if Nathan is not like that when he is novice, it is indeed alarming, somebody need to pay attention to this and prevent it getting worse, be it injury, bad habit or just a short period of growing pain.

My wild guess is Nathan is working too hard on his jumps that he forgot about the joy of being a skater. He should loosen up a little.

hippomoomin said:

Everyone says Nathan is a artistic skater, I feel I have some different observations. I think his very tight shoulders and hunched neck are very obvious distractions of his skating, which is odd considering his ballet training at a younger age. Sometimes I feel he looks like a school nerd who is studying too hard so that his back and neck get hunched, or he has some chronic injury to his shoulders and neck. When he was a novice skater, he did not look this way.

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yyyskate said:

^^ hippo you just repeated my question in another thread if Nathan is not like that when he is novice, it is indeed alarming, somebody need to pay attention to this and prevent it getting worse, be it injury, bad habit or just a short period of growing pain.

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As chuckm said in the U.S. men's thread, the likely focus has been to stay in-tact amid injury.

Also, it's worth nothing that Nathan dealt with Osgood-Sclatter, which is a very deliberating injury during puberty. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...latter-disease/basics/definition/con-20021911

Nathan is very much in a rebuilding stage and as a result, his coach is telling him to not worry about the other stuff and just do his best. I think what you see out there is grit. You see the hunched shoulders with Karen Chen (not related, BTW) as well. I feel both of them are trying to get over injuries and are SO determined to just stay competitive.

And I feel like Nathan still maintained a lot of good qualities, such as his strong basics and his musicality. It comes off a bit paint-by-number because of the tension, but I don't think that's disappeared completely.

Loosening up is easier said than done, I think. My hope is the success they've seen this season will help them loosen up and we'll see much more freedom with both of them next season.

Seeing Nathan and Sota back-to-back was a treat.
They are sooo different.

Nathan so studied and precise, serious and concentrated. Complex program, complex foot work. His musicality extends through his arms and then cuts off before it reaches his hands. I like his fast rotation and body position in his jumps!

Sota was faster, had a lot of height on his jumps, they looked easy, but loose in the air. Very simple program, but skated with a lot of ease and confidence. And his grin at the camera was precious. What does Sota have to work on? Answer: Everything! As Kurt says, he has just enough in all areas at the moment. Plus a cheeky smile.

How will these two develop?

Generally speaking，a forward-landed 2.5-rotation jump is called as a downgraded triple，no doubt about that.
Love Andrew and sota，just so talented，hope they can fix their lutz technique.

Mrs. P said:

Also, it's worth nothing that Nathan dealt with Osgood-Sclatter, which is a very deliberating injury during puberty. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...latter-disease/basics/definition/con-20021911

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I completely forgot about that. I remember reading that quite a long while back and fearing it might take him out completely. It's amazing he did as well as he did. I get the "complaints" about his skating and have to admit I don't think Nathan is all that enjoyable to watch right now. But he's still young and the potential is definitely there.
Hopefully he'll be able to see his 4th place here as a success instead of being only sad he didn't medal. Given the american mens field, I guess he'll have to stay Junior for another season. Maybe he can use that as kind of a "focus on yourself" phase, so that he can focus on really getting healthy again instead of working even harder because he has to keep up with "the big boys" now. (Not that the junior field right now wasn't strong, but it would still be less competitive than the seniors with the pressure of wanting to make the world team and all - I hope I'm making sense here!)